SKI 15 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Go Native Anywhere else in the world you would travel and expect to get a real cultural experience at a ski resort? TONS of place. Or certainly different enough to not think you are at home. Just because you aren't interested doesn't mean that everyone else isn't. In pretty much everything you say and post, you seem incapable of accepting that. Along with your contempt for your customers. Is it just some kind of act trying to look big, hard and controversial all the time or something? Hope you enjoy Shiga Kogen, PWL. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Well I accept that. I've never given a crap about cultural stuff anywhere I've travelled. I go to ski resorts to ski. I climb mountains to ski them. Can't say I've ever gone to any ski resort in the world to experience the culture of that country. Link to post Share on other sites
ippy 66 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: PWL You can dish it up however you want. OK OK. Here is what I experienced and say, with my very own eyes (and this is just in response to your % theme) - bars that were literally 100% non-Japanese, probably 75% of them male; - people walking round Echoland / Wadanomori, I would say easily 80%+ non-Japanese. And I did find a few places that were not overrun by non-Japanese, the accommodation owner told me about them so I don't see that "would probably be full of nobody" either. They were fun and lively, not empty. I think Mr wiggles was showing that the evidence *with your eyes* is actually pre-skewed by the choice made at 5pm on what to do at night He's also showing that under the visual evidence is a cultural pattern of behaviour that someone new to the country might not bring into their calculations... and thus simply assume that the japanese people arent there because if they were theyd be at the bars too. His point was that they are there, but culturally dont do the whole bar hopping thing and this creates a false impression in the eyes of people thinking "well you can see for yourself! where are they?". And yeah, its all a bit of a sausage fest too Then theres the flip of it. How do you feel when you see a quiet place with a red lantern, all kanji, no english menus, and no way to see inside? Very few tourists have the balls to open the door or peer back that curtain (me being one of them, i smell my own). Its just an izakaya though Its just a little intimidating being thrown into those kinds of immersion. I remember for example the experience of Nozawa. We found this nice little okonomiyaki place that we thought would be just a normal japanese place. We walked in, there wasnt many people, but as the night progressed throngs of gaijin came through the door. By the time we left it was about 80% gaijin. It wasnt a local gaijin hangout to my knowledge. It was off the beaten path, so i was scratching my head wondering what had happened. And then it hit me. The menu outside the place was one of the few menus we'd seen that night that was also in English and had pictures. It wasnt a LOT of english by all means, but it was more than some of the other places in the immediate vicinity. I think thats funny, and shows that even after 4 years of living in japan i aint above it. People go where theres something familiar or comfortable. Hell, lets look at ippys japan resort hit list: Year 1: Yeti togari Hakuba (goryu/47 and happo) Year 2: Hakuba Myoko (all aside seki and pinevalley) Year 3: Hakuba Nozawa Zao Niseko year 4: Niseko Moiwa Furano Kamui Myoko Ryuoo Shiga Kogen In all sincerity its following a pretty tried and true plan. The two big bases have had significant coverage, and then the satellites around them are getting a spot of coverage. It isnt exactly off the beaten track hidden gem stuff here! For the most part im hitting the places in japan that have a significant gaijin presence, followed by the stuff that have a growing gaijin presence (with the possible exception of yeti and togari). And part of that is because of the info from the gaijins on this site making the roads into these places and telling us all about them. Link to post Share on other sites
best skier in hakuba 5 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Oh I know what Mr Wiggles was 'showing'. But since when do you go to a place and form an opinion based on the official tourism stats of the place and not your experience in what you see?! Quote: How do you feel when you see a quiet place with a red lantern, all kanji, no english menus, and no way to see inside? Personally, I'll be very happy to find out. Especially if I am in a foreign country - give me the adventure! But that's an extreme example. There are tons of places that are far less 'imtimidating' and accessible. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 The other thing I've noticed ippy is that foreigners generally don't like establishments that allow smoking so they go to places that are non smoking. These places are normally aimed at the foreign market. Most Japanese like a smoke over dinner and a drink and will avoid places that do not allow smoking. So foreigners through their choice of going to a non smoking restaurant are practically guaranteeing they'll be surrounded by other foreigners. That's my experience in Niseko anyway. When I first started coming here there practically wasn't a place you could go out that was non smoking. Now it's hard to find a place that does allow it. Link to post Share on other sites
best skier in hakuba 5 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Go Native Most Japanese like a smoke over dinner Utter nonsense. And there's more and more Japanese places that are getting non smoking now. I hate smoking and manage just fine. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Utter nonsense? I've been here 7 years and that's my experience. How long have you been here? Do you even live here year round? In Kutchan there are a few places (very few) that don't allow smoking. You almost never see Japanese men in these places. You may see a few Japanese women with their kids but that's about it. Otherwise mostly foreigners. Link to post Share on other sites
best skier in hakuba 5 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 "Most Japanese like a smoke over dinner?" Utter nonsense? Yes. Bollocks. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Maybe it's different up here in Hokkaido. That's my experience. You go to any restaurant in Kutchan (that allows smoking) and pretty much every table there will be a few smokers puffing away all through dinner. Went out to dinner the other night at one of the best yaki tori places in Kutchan and I would say 80% (most) of the Japanese in there were smoking. That's about normal for up here. I do just live in a small town on inaka island and we don't get all the sophisticated Japanese types up this way so maybe smoking here is more prevalent than down your way Link to post Share on other sites
best skier in hakuba 5 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Are you sure it wasn't 82.4% of the people in there, sounds like you were really taking notes. If that really is the case, I pity people living up where you live. But "most Japanese like a smoke over dinner"? Nonsense. Link to post Share on other sites
Tex 3 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Seemed like that to me GN...We went to quite a few places in Kutchan that my travel companions immediately wrote off as soon as we opened the door because of the smoking, the place we settled on was the one that had "No Smoking" written in English out the front. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Yeah, remember folks... no gaijin smoke. Oh, apart from Go Native and lots of others. Isn't it fun having fun with words like lots, most, many. You can simply massage things into sounding exactly how you want them to sound! Link to post Share on other sites
Nisoko 6 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 You can go to some places where it's a wall of smoke and other places where there's hardly any. As you might expect. But to say that most Japanese like to smoke over dinner is false. Unless most actually means some, of course. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 It's what you want it to mean, Nisoko! Just take your pick and make you point and... voila, the truth! Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Out of the 100+ restaurants and bars in Kutchan I would say only about 5 of them don't allow smoking. Having spoken to the most of the owners about it they all admit that it greatly affects their revenue but they just don't want to work in a smoky environment. Every town and city I've been to in Hokkaido it's similar. Up in Hirafu it's the complete opposite now because they'd barely survive financially if they did allow smoking. Go back 7 years though and you would have struggled to find a place that didn't allow smoking. 7 years ago the bars and restaurants in Hirafu would be full of Japanese people now you struggle to spot any. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 That in no way proves that "most Japanese like to smoke while dining". Link to post Share on other sites
best skier in hakuba 5 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 You crack me up Go Native. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Oh whatever. It's just my experience here. I wasn't trying to rewrite wikipedia or anything! If your experience is different then all good. Link to post Share on other sites
Hokkaidough 4 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 There's not many places that are smoking dens. You'd expect some izakaya type places to be. Go Native is just exaggerating to make his point as usual. He smokes himself and so is also inclined to go to those places or certainly not avoid them. If someone wants to know of places that aren't smoking dens, there's tons. Just ask me and I'll tell you some. Link to post Share on other sites
Tex 3 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Why so contemptuous Ski? Or is it sarcasim? Facitious? I don't understand the tone Seemed like a valid and most reasonable observation that a lot of Gaijin prefer not be around smoke when eating... Hasn't a lot of the western world banned it in establishments where food is consumed. I don't understand why so many people can't have a reasonable discussion on some (most) issues even if a bit contentious on web forums. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Why not practice what you preach Tex. You just seem to enjoy throwing comments and knowledge out there and not liking it when someone picks you up on things that are simply incorrect. You know, like your telling us what we were implying. Evidence: http://www.snowjapanforums.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/400793/1.html And what are you anyway? The police or something? Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I don't seek out places because they allow smoking. I couldn't care less. If there's tons of places they aren't in Kutchan or any other smaller town I've been to in Hokkaido. Maybe in the big smoke but I don't go there much. I assume though most of you non smokers do seek out places that don't allow smoking and wow you come to the conclusion that not that many Japanese like a smoke over dinner! Link to post Share on other sites
Hokkaidough 4 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Go Native If there's tons of places they aren't in Kutchan or any other smaller town I've been to in Hokkaido. Yes, they are. It just doesn't fit your argument. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Ok name them. I'll get you started Blue Cielo Cafe Kaku Sprout Niseko Ramen Mount Pelican burger (not open in winter and smoking allowed in outside area) Chinese Restaurant Kashou SanSui Za Hotcake Shop Hirafu Chinese Dining Ni's Farmer's Soba Youtei-Zan You-You-Tei Homemade Cooking Narita Chinese Cuisine Kouka Restaurant and Bar Baron Guest House Nakayama Udon Cafe Houzuki Link to post Share on other sites
Hokkaidough 4 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Haha, knew that would be your response. Nope. You'll only twist it round and come up with some more nonsense. You know, as you do, so there's no winning and I'm not actually in a competition and it doesn't matter to me. Just if someone wants to really know, give me a shout, though in reality you should really have much of a problem finding them. Link to post Share on other sites
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