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Hakuba vs Niseko - A 37 year old Australian Snowboarders opinion


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I know this is lame but I LOVE the covered chairs. I am only a small frame with not a lot of fat coverage so I REALLY feel the cold. I found that riding the covered chairlifts gave me a chance to warm myself up. When I braved the open ones I only got few rides in before heading in to warm up and then off I would head again. YES I had toe warmers, hand warmers and bra warmers.

 

As for the off piste. The boys in our group hardly hit a groomed run. They would head off piste and we would meet them down the bottom. To me off piste as long as you check your avalanche dangers etc, is less of a work up for the ski hills as they don't have to be groomed each day and it also soaks more people up on the hills.

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Snowhuntress - You need better clothing. Do a bit of research and you may have to spend a bit more but there is no reason to be cold on the hill. I have never heard of bra warmers. A new business for some enterprising young chap to do some on mountain fitting maybe.

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YES to covered lifts.

GN's mention of consolidation is a good idea. Fattwins' getting rid of some runs I can understand but not good for increasing the base population of the sport. These places can be a good starting point for kids and beginners. Keeps the other places less crowded. I recommend these places to convert to T- bars. The NZ club run gerende can be a good model for these places.

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Originally Posted By: Go Native
I think many Japanese resorts are still only catering to old school skiers who built the whole industry up in the 80's but are now getting on in age and skiing a whole lot less. They don't really seem to have grasped the concept that skis have changed over the years and the rising popularity of off-piste skiing and boarding amongst younger Japanese. Their market they cater for is dying off and yet they do little to cater to the emerging markets.


I`ve spent most of the season boarding off piste at Sapporo Teine and Rusutsu, and the last five weeks doing the same at Kamui Ski Links, Furano and Rusutsu and I really find it hard to fault the balance these resorts have found between danger and access. I`m not sure what else they could do to please.

Teine and Rusutsu in particular have got it right, in my opinion. They have big signs saying that riding out of bounds is not allowed and dangerous, and that if you come unstuck, you`re on your own. These signs are actually handy in low visibility as they`re placed at the best access spots wink. Patrol don`t chase or wait at track ends. Maybe a glare or two, but that`s it. If you stray into an area that has a real danger ahead, you`ll see the skull and crossbones sign. Ignore that and you`re a fool. Only took me half an hour on my first day of the season to work this informal system out.

Kamui`s a fantastic free-for-all, again with signs about danger and responsibility. And with all the terrain at Furano, if you can`t finesse your way around the patrol, you`re not trying hard enough. They wait like traffic cops at the most obvious spots. I learnt that the hard way early on my first morning there, but a brief apology (and the handy wee excuse) was all that was needed to see me on my way.
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Greenroome the problem I have with what you're talking about is that the resorts are not actively managing access to off-piste slopes. I'm very familiar with the turn a blind eye policy of some resorts up here but is that a really the best solution they can come up with? I think Niseko has done a great job in showing the rest how it can be done. They just need to have the balls to actively implement a similar solution instead of leaving in the too hard basket and turning a blind eye. Tomamu have implemented an off-piste access policy which also seems to work well, it can be done! It certainly makes things safer than just playing cat and mouse with the patrol by ducking ropes into areas that may or may not be safe.

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But back on topic, good report, Grantj, I agree with nearly all of it, from the perspective of a 40 year-old skier.

 

If more of this sort of feedback could filter through via guys like Fattwins, TJ OZ and Go Native, and the whole SJ team, to those who can do something about it at the resort level, the experience can only get better for everyone. Rider and resort/hotel/restaurant operator alike.

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Originally Posted By: Go Native
Greenroome the problem I have with what you're talking about is that the resorts are not actively managing access to off-piste slopes. I'm very familiar with the turn a blind eye policy of some resorts up here but is that a really the best solution they can come up with? I think Niseko has done a great job in showing the rest how it can be done. They just need to have the balls to actively implement a similar solution instead of leaving in the too hard basket and turning a blind eye. Tomamu have implemented an off-piste access policy which also seems to work well, it can be done! It certainly makes things safer than just playing cat and mouse with the patrol by ducking ropes into areas that may or may not be safe.


That turn a blind eye thing is a very Japanese approach. It hardly represents a responsible approach to resort management though. Unfortunately full-on enforcement of rules is often another typical Japanese response - just pot luck as to which type of response you meet. You see it everywhere, not just on the mountains.

I'm with GN, Niseko has got the right balance I reckon. A fair and sensible approach to terrain access, but geez, you duck a rope, even if it is to just ride on the outside of the rope in the fresh snow and they're on to you straight away. There are a few places I know at Hirafu and Annapuri where with a bit of speed you can scoot under the ropes zoom through the out of bounds soft stuff and then cut back inside to get more speed and avoid the terrain traps - but man, the patrol go nuts if they see you and will pull you up if they're in a position to do so. We had two of ours guys asked to show their passes and I was abused by a patrol from a lift for scooting down the wrong side of the ropes.

I might be way wrong here, but the conditions in Niseko might make the gate system a bit easier to manage than at other places as the snow settles quickly and the avie danger tends to drop off qucikly. Given the numbers of people dropping off the back of the peak or traversing from Annapurri or Hanazono, you would hope the avie risk is low!
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Japan in no way needs 500 plus ski resorts. Many of the resorts are just there to get government money for the towns. Many of these need to close or else viable ski resorts will continue to loose money.

 

Resorts need to better manage themselves for example. We are no longer in the early 90s and things will never be that busy again.

Some rants

Over staffing lifts? there is no need to have 8 people working one lift. The resort not checking tickets because of the IC card system?

Lift organization to make sure lines move faster. Stop using out dated equipment it is out right dangerous.

 

Standards

Grooming have a standard and meet that standard.

All lifts should have safty bars. As a father I dont want my kid falling off of a lift.

Slow zones should be enforced.

If it is a true avie zone more signage is needed and enforce that rule.

 

Kids areas keep it growing. The best one ive seen is at Cortina full on mini sleds for the kids, WTF I wanna play there.

 

In general the number of people that are on ski holidays are mid level sliders. Off piste sking in my opinion should be aimed at them. Try to open more areas that can be accesed by these guests.

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Originally Posted By: The Gimp
A fair and sensible approach to terrain access, but geez, you duck a rope, even if it is to just ride on the outside of the rope in the fresh snow and they're on to you straight away... the patrol go nuts if they see you and will pull you up if they're in a position to do so. We had two of ours guys asked to show their passes and I was abused by a patrol from a lift for scooting down the wrong side of the ropes.


This is why I like Rusutsu and Teine`s policy. If they see you scooting down the wrong side of a rope, they assume you`ve read the big fluoro red signs about the dangers and liabilities, and that you`ve made a cosncious decision based on your abilities. It certainly isn`t perfect but it allows competent riders to have fun and keeps beginners on the inbounds ungroomed until they`re competent. I didn`t see one rescue from the trees all season at either resort.

The contents of the signs is kind of like your dad talking to you about drugs - he tells you they`re illegal and not to do them, but he knows you will so he advises you to act responsibly.
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Originally Posted By: Greenroome
This is why I like Rusutsu and Teine`s policy. If they see you scooting down the wrong side of a rope, they assume you`ve read the big fluoro red signs about the dangers and liabilities, and that you`ve made a cosncious decision based on your abilities.


I doubt very much they've made any such assumption at all. Especially as most people just go flying past the signs without stopping to look or read them. They've just decided to turn a blind eye and this is as far as I'm concerned not the best way to manage off-piste access.
Niseko patrol can be very strict on people ducking ropes, especially because they have such a liberal off-piste policy allowing excellent access to most of the mountain they probably see no reason to be lenient with those who still can't show any respect and at least stay out of the few areas they have roped off. And I don't blame them.
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Originally Posted By: keba
Originally Posted By: MikePow
Like lifts with covers for starters.


I wouldn't have picked you as 'soft', Mike... wink


lol

Smart and thinking of the people new to the sport and / or who may have not experienced the full on conditions we have up here at times. Read many Australians and Asians.
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The real problem with the turn-a-blind-eye approach is that it doesn't provide any real safety guidance. What value is a skull and crossbones sign standing in the middle of what is clearly a major thoroughfare? That is where Niseko get it right and it echos comments from US and Euro resorts where punters have a free range of access but know that the terrain wouldn't be roped off if it wasn't absolutely necessary. Sure, there may be some ground that might otherwise be opened but isn't, Niseko does have some of this, but generally a punter can be sure that if it was safe to open then it would be. The blind-eye approach to resort management is a bit like the boy who cried wolf.

 

I have no problem losing my pass if the patrol catch me riding the wrong side of the ropes. My transgressions aren't serious, I'm not cutting exposed faces nor am I going down potential slide pathes, I'm just using a mixture of a bit of speed and timing to poach bits here and there that are largely indistinguishable from the ground on the inside of the rope. I'm in far greater danger from hitting a tree in bounds.

 

The rules are clear, who am I to argue if they are enforced.

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Originally Posted By: Fattwins


Standards
Grooming have a standard and meet that standard.
All lifts should have safty bars. As a father I dont want my kid falling off of a lift.
Slow zones should be enforced.
If it is a true avie zone more signage is needed and enforce that rule.

In general the number of people that are on ski holidays are mid level sliders. Off piste sking in my opinion should be aimed at them. Try to open more areas that can be accesed by these guests.


Totally agree with you here, I couldn't believe those dodgy 1 seat and 2 seat lifts that don't have safety bars, I was shitting it going up on them never mind young kids!!

Jynxx I can't believe you want a return to the t-bar system, as I learned in Scotland, this tow system is everywhere and was the bane of my beginner-life!! It isn't conducive for beginners, well snowboard beginners and I would love to Bazooka every t-bar and poma tow that is still in use!
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Originally Posted By: 2pints,mate
BTW, are there many 1 person lifts over there? Can't recall seeing any.


there are a couple at niseko up high. seems the higher up the mountain you get the smaller and slower the lifts.
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Wow grantj71, thats a good report, thanks for posting.

 

Our recent trip to Niseko could originally have been Hakuba instead.

 

After hearing what you have said, as well as striking some fantastic conditions and lucky weather ourselves, I'm glad we chose Niseko over Hakuba this time.

 

Your mention of very limited off-piste snowriding at Hakuba is very interesting - that sounds quite uninviting.

Yea, we spent over 80% of our entire snowriding at Niseko off piste as well, and could have easily done so more.. And loved it.

 

And this is my view as a skiier - loved poking off-piste around heaps of terrain around the various Niseko areas, incl. thru some gates etc.

 

Let's now hope for good, cold snow fall during most of the upcoming Aussie winter here right across the snowy mountains!

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Well, I am glad that on the whole most people have taken my review as what is what meant to be.... Just a neutral informative view of things. I have no vested interest in either location..

 

The hope is that certain people that live and work in each location can discuss in a neutral way the positives and negatives to management and we can see an improvement.

 

I am sure also that many Aussies would love it if Qantas, Jetstar, JAL or similar put some direct Australia to Sapporo flights back on!!!

 

Someone in an earlier post mentioned about people doing their research before they get there... Yep, good point, but I think that in all honesty, I stayed at a BEAUTIFUL hotel and can't fault it... Except I speak EXTREMELY limited Japanese and the staff spoke extremely limited English... Did I find that a problem...Nup... Loved them, they were fantastic.... But where as some people bag Niseko because there are too many Aussies, I don't mind the fact that the amount of English signage, and literature available gets you informed when you get there...

Remember, we are on holiday and when on holiday things should be easy!!

 

Anyway, I hope to return to Japan on a regular basis and I hope to experience other resorts as well as return to Niseko in future!! You have to have a taste of the new and a taste of the 'trusted' in order to keep experiencing new things!!!

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Originally Posted By: Mamabear

I'll drink to that! cheers


OK, I'll bite! There are those who say that you'll drink to anything! kiss
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Originally Posted By: ssar

Our recent trip to Niseko could originally have been Hakuba instead.

After hearing what you have said, as well as striking some fantastic conditions and lucky weather ourselves, I'm glad we chose Niseko over Hakuba this time.

Your mention of very limited off-piste snowriding at Hakuba is very interesting - that sounds quite uninviting.
Yea, we spent over 80% of our entire snowriding at Niseko off piste as well, and could have easily done so more.. And loved it.

And this is my view as a skiier - loved poking off-piste around heaps of terrain around the various Niseko areas, incl. thru some gates etc.

Let's now hope for good, cold snow fall during most of the upcoming Aussie winter here right across the snowy mountains!


In all fairness in a good season Hakuba would offer many many times more off groomer opportunities than Niseko. Just consider that Hakuba isn't just a single mountain like Niseko. Rather its a valley with 6-7 or so resorts. So diverse, so big.
Niseko is like a well manicured golf course with great lies, friendly rolls and reachable par 5's.
Hakuba is like St Andrews, its rough, its wild but if you get a three on the road hole you'll remember it for the rest of your life.
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