The Ski Patrol slackcountry thread

[pie-eater 207]

Intermission, bit of politics.

Remember to vote in the erection everyone!

 

[rider69 18]

Im not attacking im trying to write in a way that isnt.

 

Why does everything have to come for free. Before the internet people learned how and where to ride by learning and exploring. You are talking about rope ducking and giving people information beyond a rope. And you basically helped my point about how little you do know. How does that encourage me to tell you to watch out for a hundred foot cliff in the nozawa trees or where it is? Seriously Im not there day to day nor can judge the conditions on certain days. Meet people talk to them explore safely with friends. Do so knowing that in Japan you must self rescue. Talk to patrol outside of being caught most of them will tell you the real reason why something is closed. And the best way to change things is this. Go to resorts that promote off piste skiing. Go to Charmont Cortina Niseko, go to the cat skiing operation outside of Nagano city. Ski 47s trees out so fast that they are forced to open more by shere numbers. Slackcountry as you term it should be left for people to judge for themselves.

[snowbender 3]

[annaspanna17 0]

My experience on Hokkaido is you don't need to duck ropes to access the goods.

 

I don't duck ropes, many do.

 

Most patrollers get angry if they see you do it.

 

The only times I've heard of people losing their passes is when skiing Mizuno-zawa and Haro-no-taki between Niseko Village and Niseko Hirafu.

I agree - this areas is particularly dangerous so if you are caught there you will lose your pass for sure. They are pretty strict with that in Niseko.

[best skier in hakuba 5]

Can I also submit that some people make their living doing tours.

 

For lots of people it boils down to being selfish. Don't want to share, don't want to let people in on stuff that goes against their interest.

 

Of course, they wouldn't admit that.

[ippy 66]

Im not attacking im trying to write in a way that isnt.

 

Why does everything have to come for free. Before the internet people learned how and where to ride by learning and exploring. You are talking about rope ducking and giving people information beyond a rope. And you basically helped my point about how little you do know. How does that encourage me to tell you to watch out for a hundred foot cliff in the nozawa trees or where it is? Seriously Im not there day to day nor can judge the conditions on certain days. Meet people talk to them explore safely with friends. Do so knowing that in Japan you must self rescue. Talk to patrol outside of being caught most of them will tell you the real reason why something is closed. And the best way to change things is this. Go to resorts that promote off piste skiing. Go to Charmont Cortina Niseko, go to the cat skiing operation outside of Nagano city. Ski 47s trees out so fast that they are forced to open more by shere numbers. Slackcountry as you term it should be left for people to judge for themselves.

 

But cant you see the point. You are actually helping me. Your argument is that i should explore it on my own. Isnt that way the hell worse than risking that tommy in australia might read this and know where it is and what it is. Not only am i now at greater risk from this policy, but tommy in australia is as well because hes probably going to have to find it out on his own as well (as is everyone else trying to find it). And we all know how people find out lines on their own... they FOLLOW lines made by other people.

 

Those people might be like you and know what theyre doing and where theyre going because they have the info (won from personal experience allegedly), then again they might be a bunch of tommys following a bunch of tommys into a terrain trap and a seriously dangerous situation. This is the how and why of rope ducking. The more lines cut into the snow the safer its perceived to be, which encourages more people to take risks on it leading to a general disregard for the ropes. This is the most obvious thing in the world and i ask you hand on heart to tell me you didnt do exactly this to find the sheer majority of lines at whatever resorts youve ridden.

 

"i wonder where this goes?" Might as well be the motto of the slackcountry association. Its precisely this idea of "discovery!" and "exploration!" that i think puts people in more danger than they need to be. As i keep pointing out, this was fine when few people ducked ropes. These lines leading off into the trees made no difference because people for the most part stayed on the groomers, but its changed. Its massively promoted by the industry to sell equipment. The industry pushes this very very heaviliy and im sure you know this. People see slackcountry in the same way as they might have seen a big mountain ripper board 5 or so years ago; if youve got one, youre obviously an advanced rider.

 

Its in the culture, its growing, and its dangerous. People will do it. Shutting up about it, or pretending that your silence protects people compromises their safety. Worse still shutting down discussion on it in absolutist terms that any discussion of slackcountry = encouragement of slackcountry endangers peoples lives. We are way past the point in time where we can say that if we keep quiet we wont encourage it. Its a reality of resort riding now. It has to be talked about. This thread doenst dictate terms and even if it did, the meta discussion on whether i can even hope to dictate those terms has long been massively hijacked. The only restriction i posited was the resort name, and what your experience has been with the ski patrol on that resort. Its pretty clear that when ski patrol are standing next to you in a clear out of bounds area DISCUSSING possible flashpoints and then leaving you to get on with it, you are dealing with a policy of laizzes faire ski patrol. This isnt mad stuf here.

 

Likewise when youre dealing with a resort that clearly marks its resort boundaries up the top ONLY with signs, whilst locking off certain areas with ropes, that the resort might not actually want you to ride that part of the mountain for serious reasons, (whilst it would rather you didnt ride the other bit, but wont stop you going ahead and injuring yourself (at cost to yourself)). This illustrates not how fun and free for all this resort might be, but rather the opposite. It indicates a resort that is happy to open up as much terrain as possible, but recognizes serious dangers to their customers. Again, this AMPLIFIES the threat behind the rope rather than diminishes it.

 

This grading system gives people an actual idea about the dangers behind the ropes even without me mentioning what they are specifically (though i believe i did specify in this case), and this would help you in your decision as to whether the cumulative risk to your life, risk to anyone elses life on that line, and risk of having your pass pulled would be worth it just to bomb that line?

 

Its not a black and white situation out there. Its nuanced, complicated, and risky. But i genuinely believe that giving people more information helps much more than the threat it poses by even talking about it.

[SnowJapan 178]

Let me add a few comments here - and as is often the case in times like this, a few things going on that everyone reading this have not seen and so probably can't see where they are coming from.

 

But anyway.

Please, keep this from getting personal with insults flying, I don't think that will get anywhere.

We're really extremely busy and very tired right now, and because of that quite possibly slightly less patient than usual.

So please don't push us as we're not in the mood.

 

If you want to write stuff and share it..... do it.

If you actually do want to share info for peoples benefit, rather than share your website for your benefit ("who, me?!?", I hear someone saying now).... do it.

But don't come on here like one person simply telling people to go elsewhere.

And yeah, saying "google awesome sidecountry legendary mt granview" is pretty much the same as a link, ain't it.

I'm pretty sure that most people have heard of google and don't need telling how to use it if they wish.

 

Thanks.

[ippy 66]

im pretty sure its all love and peace. Id like to think i already have a reputation for being a bit of a kid and a touch irresponsible anyway, so i doubt too many hearts have been changed by the fact i consider this a fair topic for discussion.

[SnowJapan 178]

Oh that wasn't about you ippy.

[BagOfCrisps 24]

Thing is, gaijin stand out in Japan.

So they will be noticed whatever they do, and especially if it's going "against the rules" etc.

 

Whenever I go somewhere I am always aware of that I like to treat the place I'm visiting with respect, just as I would expect people visiting the UK to do the same.

Obviously often doesn't work that way and sadly lots of people really don't give a crap about stuff like that.

[Tubby Beaver 209]

When in Rome....do as the Romans.....well I see plenty "Romans" ducking ropes. Japan is quick to point the finger and say its the foreigners.....in fact us gaij in this country often play along to this, but in a lot of cases, there are just as many locals doing the same thing....but of course thats ok

[BagOfCrisps 24]

Cool!

[ippy 66]

i dont jaywalk in front of elementary school kids

[Besniwod 6]

I think it is important to point out that a fair few ski resorts in Japan don't seem to do any avi control or provide an avalanche forecast. If the resort doesn’t do any bombing then ducking ropes when the avi risk is high (such as an amazing powder day after a massive dump) you are endangering yourself and others. Even worse though is that you won't know when the avi risk is high because there is no avi forecast let alone any info provided at the resort. I agree that resorts should educate people coming to ski their resort and let them make informed decisions about what their acceptable level of risk is.

 

I guess the problem with stating "this area beyond the ropes is safe" and "this area isn't" ignores the fact that safety is dependent on the conditions at the time.

 

I agree that resorts need to reduce the amount of ropes and instead point out hazards: cliffs, tree wells, and current avi danger etc. That way, people will be more inclined to listen if an area normally open is roped off with a big sign saying the avi risk today is extreme.

 

There needs to be an official national avalanche forecasting organization and the resorts should provide that info.

[Ajax 0]

Young people aren't watching ski movies with skiers riding the piste ,it's all off piste in the powder that is what is influencing them to duck ropes. Resorts like nozawa which I think has an abundance of slack country could be safely opened up by a more progressive management to cater for the increasing popularity of off piste riding. Probably more work for ski patrol but at least they will have a job and have more control over what is happening in the slack country. Agree with Ippy more information as to why a particular area is closed would save ski patrol a lot of problems. Some areas in nozawa look so inticing and not dangerous but end in deep gullies with no obvious way out and going back up is exhausting in waist deep snow. A rescue by ski patrol will cost a $2000 debit to the credit card.

Off piste skiing in slack country is only going to grow in popularity and resorts who sucessfully cater for this will prosper while the ones with thehard line approach will struggle.

 

[Nisekubazawa 0]

I guess lots of resorts can't afford those things.

Would we rather them close completely?

[Tubby Beaver 209]

no definitely not BUT that does seem to be where the market is headed and if they can't produce for their customers then market forces would suggest that they are gonna close anyway.

 

Does anybody know why, for instance, Kagura doesn't open up the very top forestry course until late March? Is there an actual snow related reason or is it manpower/cant be arsed related? Its a shame cos I love that area

[Alexander L 80]

it's because you love that area.

[Slippery Jim 65]

Once again, an area may be roped for reasons other than safety/danger.

If you don't like the rules, don't buy a lift ticket, get some skins and go fully back country.

[Tubby Beaver 209]

Sorry Dad

[Slippery Jim 65]

Wasn't directed at you, Tubby. And I've often wondered about that Kagura lift myself.

But the principle stands. When you buy a lift ticket you're agreeing to certain restrictions, for whatever reasons.

Just like the rules here on posting outside links -- I don't necessarily agree with that, but it's the rule so if I want to put a link up I check with the SJ guys first and ask.

I don't just say, well that's a stupid rule so I'm not following it.

And I wouldn't start a thread aimed at telling people, hey there are way to get around the SJ guys and post stuff that's so close to being a link blah blah blah...

And, let's not forget, nobody's in danger of injury or death here on the comfortable threads of SnowJapan.

[SnowJapan 178]

Oh and by the way, just for the record, when you ask us... we often say thanks for asking us, sure.... go ahead, don't we.

 

Interesting you should bring that point up DiGriz. We have our reasons for our litte 'rules' here. We think they are good reasons. We don't think it's perfect, but it works better than another way in the circumstances. Some people can't see the reasons and because of a mixture of 'there's a lot of backstory that people never know about' and 'basically we don't want to discuss absolutely everything we do in public with total strangers', people outside of us folk running the site will never totally know and understand the complete situation and circumstances in which we operate. We'll try and explain as best we can what we expect, but at some point we basically just have to ask people to accept it.

 

I suppose the same sort of thing applies to many things.

 

Personally I do think it would be a very good idea if resorts would try and communicate more on the old ropes/terrain issue.

[ippy 66]

as i said, its just going to go into an ugly place... :|

[Slippery Jim 65]

Indeed, SJ-David, I find you guys are most accommodating that way!

[Tubby Beaver 209]

Ok I apologise then

 

Yeah rules are rules.......until they are changed. What is the rule today doesn't need to be the rule tomorrow. The analogy with SJ plays more into what Ippy is talking about IMO, SJ have these rules and they give an explanation as to why they have them. Sure people still try and post links but I bet it's less than if there was no explanation at all about why the rules are in place.