The Ski Patrol slackcountry thread

[Thundercat 60]

Chriselle: "Get off my grass you damn kids!"

 

I don't duck ropes any more... because I go to places without them. Stay safe out there this season y'all!

[rider69 18]

This is kind of a cheat sheet that could get someone hurt. There are many reasons for the ropes. Many times it is because the resort is not renting the land on the other side of the ropes. I for one duck a few ropes but Im not going to tell the internet where. I dont trust a person untill I ski with them so why give away a slightly dangerous area to someone who doesnt understand the risks. Sorry Ippy but this is by far one of the stupidest and most dangerous posts I have ever seen on an internet site where the average riding level is in the mid range. If you feel the need to make a post like this maybe TGR is a better place. Other than that I would hope that this would just be deleted by the creator.

[iiyamadude 6]

Sorry Ippy but this is by far one of the stupidest and most dangerous posts I have ever seen on an internet site where the average riding level is in the mid range.

 

rider69 has done all the research and knows this, you see.

 

[SKI 15]

rider69 knows everything, so it shouldn't be much of a surprise at all.

 

I would suggest that these peasant-like 'average riders' actually seeing 'higher beings' ducking ropes at their favorite resorts and not knowing anything about it, perhaps thinking it is ok to follow them rather than know that they are being douchebags, is 'more dangerous' than having just a bit of knowledge on the ins and outs of the situation.

[@tokyo 14]

But hey....I spend half my day yelling at people to stop going to the hospital.....for a F'ing cold.

 

 

Know what you mean there!

[ippy 66]

Its also disproportionately young people. Its just one of those things. As i say, slackcountry traffic has grown not lessened despite the existence of ropes and ski areas seem to be responding by opening up more terrain because its simply easier than chasing after people. Bear in mind that not all ropes signify a danger. Often they mark the resort boundaries and in particular where the liability of the resort to rescue you ends.

 

Here is what id honestly love to see and i think it would be a counter to the seriousness of rope ducking. Id love to see less ropes. But instead of ropes in some spots id like to see more signs stating that the resort boundaries end here (a la yamabiko). On areas that are roped off i would love to see a declaration of the reason why. If you saw a sign stating that this area has blind cliff drops, open river beds, or has no way back to the resort without a loooong boot pack ALONGSIDE A ROPE this would make you definitely reconsider popping under it. It wouldnt deter everyone of course, but it would stop the chancers who just want to find fresh lines (me). Basically it would drop the number of people ducking under ropes into genuine danger areas instantly (since theres a perfectly slack country area just over the other side without the ropes so why bother killing yourself for this much more dodgy line?). These arent the kind of threats that you take lightly. And the less people cutting lines under that rope, the more taboo it becomes to be the person to cut the line in the first place. You see very few lines under ropes at niseko (except on the nighta of course).

 

Serious threats should be roped off. Non serious threats or the resort boundaries should come with a liability waver disclaimer and little else. I think this is the absolute correct balance. I know in the alps they only have sign posting about the esort boundaries and thats it (isnt there an ongoing/finished where a british family is suing a resort because of inadequate notification?). This is hugely dangerous and i wouldnt feel remotely safe with this policy. So a fair balance needs to be struck. Rope only serious resort dangers. Allow people to ride everything else. I saw on happo the other day both ropes and just the poles. This is also a decent solution. It notifies of an area they dont want you dropping in from, and an area where they dont approve, but allow you to make your own risks. At least thats how i understood it.

 

When i go out of the gates at Niseko i look at the avi info, I ride sensibly, i respect the fact its a considered choice based on open and freely available information. I also recognise that although its not patrolled its going to be relatively safe otherwise theyd shut down the gates. When i duck a rope i dont know whats going to happen and im going into it pretty blind. Im just following lines for the most part and hoping theres nothing too complicated about to befall me. As i said above almost every single incident of rope ducking is uneventful. The numbers bare this out. Its the exception to the rules that we focus on the incidents where people did get caught out. which obviously brings the question of whence the ropes? And this is where it gets rather dangerous.

 

As for the question of it being the stupidest most dangerous thing on the internet. Well, you know. Was rope ducking some kind of super secret that only a few people participated in, then sure, youd have me, but its not the case. Its common place, traffic is going up. Its all well and good keeping your information beyond the ropes and safe lines and dodgy lines to yourself, but imagine if you will you wrote something about where the serious lines were in happo area that slide, or what ropes lead to what cliff drops, or 100 other pieces of actually experienced info. Sure you might be telling people where things are, then again you might be making someone reconsider riding that line the next time theyre out because they recognise you have no axe to grind and are just passing on non morally infused and impartial information.

The problem of bringing in morality is exactly what a lot of this thread has shown. The very act of even speaking about ducking ropes brings up claims from people who also duck ropes and by that act mark the lines that tell the less informed where to duck the rope stating that telling them where to go is morally dubious. Youre already telling them where to go every time you mark a line under a rope. This is the issue here. People are ducking ropes and theyre doing it in huge numbers. Its getting LESS safe in slackcountry because people are following lines and not knowing a thing about whats behind them. So id argue that this culture of secrecy or this idea that you cant talk about it without somehow legitimizing it, is a much larger problem than giving a "cheat sheet" (its not), or where to drop in (its not because your lines under the ropes are that very cheat sheet this thread on the other hand at least adds what might be beyond them).

 

See, this is the problem that frustrates me terribly. I think theres a (not attacking people for holding this position by the way, im sympathetic to it and uderstand why youd suggest it), certain degree of sanctimony and this idea that you cant talk about it simply makes it much harder for people to get considered and neutral information to make choices for themselves about risks they want to take for themselves. I appreciate that if you get in an accident and ski patrol need to come get you this is bad, but consider that a lot of those accidents could be prevented by MORE information and not less. If the policy was ropes only in the real danger spots, less people would duck them. By talking about slackcountry and the dangers of slackcountry you help add to peoples calculations on acceptable risk. By not talking about it (whilst slackcountry is being heavily tracked), is utterly arbitrary and closes down any chance for people moving (and they will) into slackcountry. Numbers are going up not down. This is the reality of the situation. and as such its a conversation that really needs to take place in all forums. I really feel people need to talk about it more, not less. And it shouldnt be talked about in a hectoring demonising manner (i will qualify that by stating i know none of its personal and that the phrasing "most stupid" isnt really an attack on me, but maybe my judgement in making it). I really strongly feel ethically, since morality is now all over this, that talking about, detoxifying the thou shalt not tone of the discussion might encourage people to do it. But it will also draw a very clear notion of the dangers attached to it. Whether from me (and i think i balanced it well) or from people telling me im leading people to their deaths because of this thing thats behind curtain one.

 

What does come across though as hugely insincere is the idea that ducking a rope = insta death. Ive been thinking that a great deal of this conversation parallels discussions on drug use with a great deal of the arguments taking on the Leah Betts position: any discussion of it without an express declaration that you disapprove of it and it will kill you, is seen as promoting it. This is ludicrous. This is why i keep saying id like to keep the morality out of it. It would be genuinely nice to see people talk about slackcountry and be able to say openly that this area seems way more safe than this area. Suggesting that NONE of its safe, or that all of it is equiavalent just meas that when people do duck ropes and find that it was just a fun run, that they might take away from this that ropes are arbitrary and only put there to cover the resort and delimit its patrolled area.

 

The general cuclture of silence that surrounds slackcountry means i have to often find out this stuff on my own, and i will. I like slackcountry, i get a buzz from riding it. But maybe if someone were to say "ipps, sure, most of kagura is pretty safe if you can ride a bit, but this bit over here you probably want to avoid because theres a massive great blind drop into a river if you stray too far to the left". It would change my mind hugely about exploring that area. And nothing stops anyone on this site adding that information. Instead though it always turns into a meta discussion on the very idea of discussing slackcountry and the prospect that by even talking about it, youre sending people to their deaths. In those scenarios youre giving me much less information, nd also shutting down the chances i have to acquire that very important information. Youre making it more dangerous, not less. I hope this makes sense. Im not attacking anyone, gusto drink bar on me, etc. But i dont think its as black and white as it might seem and i think that needs to be acknowledged.

[Go Native 70]

I see way more gaij ducking than native Japanese and I imagine a fairly large percentage of those foreigners ducking aren't residents in Japan. I guess its my old man mentality surfacing here but when you duck those ropes don't you have any concerns regarding insurance and not being covered in the event of getting charged for a search and recovery situation?

 

But why is that any of our concern? If people want to do stupid things I don't care.

[pie-eater 207]

Often they mark the resort boundaries and in particular where the liability of the resort to rescue you ends.

 

Do they not always mark this?

 

But when something bad happens, even if it is outside of their 'liability', it is not something they can ignore and causes problems.

[Chriselle 158]

I see way more gaij ducking than native Japanese and I imagine a fairly large percentage of those foreigners ducking aren't residents in Japan. I guess its my old man mentality surfacing here but when you duck those ropes don't you have any concerns regarding insurance and not being covered in the event of getting charged for a search and recovery situation?

 

But why is that any of our concern? If people want to do stupid things I don't care.

 

Sure, that is just what would be going through my head before I ducked any ropes in any country I'm not a resident of. As long as I'm not absorbing any of those costs of injury or death......fill your boots.

[Slippery Jim 65]

where the liability of the resort to rescue you ends

 

As I wrote earlier, YOU DON'T SEEM TO GET IT!

This isn't about two lawyers & a judge deciding who pays the XXXX yen rescue cost; it's about you encouraging (intentionally or not) other people to put the lives and safety of mountain rescue teams at risk because they're going out there regardless. Rationalize all you want, but that's the bottom line. You have now increased the workload and the risk factor for every ski patroller and mountain rescue worker in Japan. Congratulations.

[gnarly-dude 1]

I agree, but I also think it is good to actually discuss the issue rather than just sweep it under the snow so to speak.

I would imagine lots of the duckers would do so whatever. Hey, they want to dude.

But other people might not when they realise the potential danges and the potential consequences.

I'm sure more than a few people will read this and for the first time think about that ski patrol's family.

Obviously the gnarliest won't but again they are going to do whatever the heck they want anyway.

[Chriselle 158]

Well, DiGriz.....it does give them a job and funding. Kinda like crime and cops.

[ippy 66]

Look, its getting silly. You keep saying im not getting it. I get the point, but your godwinning it here.

 

People are ducking ropes. In increasing numbers. They arent ducking it because im trying to make a thread about it. Theyre doing it because theyre seeing lines under ropes. Lines that people like you and me are making.

 

This thread at least tries to suggest what might be behind those lines. This idea that staying silent about it is consequence free is utterly ludicrous. It creates MORE dangers, not less. It prevents avenues to sharing information and causes people to take more risks not less.

[Thundercat 60]

Instead of being a thread about places where you can poach some slackcountry, why not make it a thread about where it's not safe to go and leave it at that.

 

I'll start:

- Akakan, skiers' right from the top of the resort. Massive canyon and terrain trap which takes hours to get out of and is very dangerous.

[pie-eater 207]

Brief intermission

 

[Chriselle 158]

I'm going to take the "Get off my grass!!" thing to the slopes this year. I'm going to ask every gaijin ducker if they are living, paying taxes and medical in Japan. If they answer no....then I'm going to bark my "bitter old man whose been in Japan too long" routine at them. They'll probably tell me to F off but some may get it...

[joshnii 2]

With topics like this I often get the impression that some people are less concerned about it being 'dangerous' as stated above, and more the fact that they simply don't want other people going where they go.

 

Oh yeah and only 3 people on these Forums know how good a skier I am, so count me out of the statistical analysis of skill levels of people here.

[Thundercat 60]

I'm going to take the "Get off my grass!!" thing to the slopes this year. I'm going to ask every gaijin ducker if they are living, paying taxes and medical in Japan. If they answer no....then I'm going to bark my "bitter old man whose been in Japan too long" routine at them. They'll probably tell me to F off but some may get it...

 

LOL! I hope I'm there when it happens... Coz then I could do a follow up a few minutes later and give them the same lecture.

[ippy 66]

Instead of being a thread about places where you can poach some slackcountry, why not make it a thread about where it's not safe to go and leave it at that.

 

I'll start:

- Akakan, skiers' right from the top of the resort. Massive canyon and terrain trap which takes hours to get out of and is very dangerous.

i certainly have no problem with you telling me this. But the problem seems to be that by the very fact of you telling me this, you tacitly encourage me to ride slackcountry by illustrating a nice fun line that no one else is going to be on and/or specifying this as being dangerous (and thus implying the rest as being relatively speaking, safe).

This is the quagmire that this thread seems to be stuck in. There seems to be only two rules: you dont talk about slackcountry, and you DONT talk about slackcountry.

[Thundercat 60]

Guess it's like the first two rules of fight club...

[Slippery Jim 65]

Better yet, Chris: ``Y'all going down there better hurry before I trigger this slab up here and it picks you up along the way!''

[Thundercat 60]

1st RULE: You do not talk about SLACKCOUNTRY.

2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about SLACKCOUNTRY.

[Go Native 70]

where the liability of the resort to rescue you ends

 

As I wrote earlier, YOU DON'T SEEM TO GET IT!

This isn't about two lawyers & a judge deciding who pays the XXXX yen rescue cost; it's about you encouraging (intentionally or not) other people to put the lives and safety of mountain rescue teams at risk because they're going out there regardless. Rationalize all you want, but that's the bottom line. You have now increased the workload and the risk factor for every ski patroller and mountain rescue worker in Japan. Congratulations.

 

I always laugh when people carry on about risk to mountain rescue teams and the like. Having been someone who was part of a search and rescue group on the past I can tell you most people involved in such things love the chance to get out there and do what they've practiced for so long. It's why they're involved in such things in the first place.

[gnarly-dude 1]

I'm sure they prefer risking their lives to save decent people who have come a cropper, rather than arseholes who have put themselves and others at risk.

[Go Native 70]

I'm sure you haven't got a clue what they prefer.