Okushiga snowboarder's petition

[Jynxx 4]

With a can of worms on the shoulder...

 

Geez I must be a shit stirrer

maybe a can opener ..

 

Pretty interesting reaction I got, bordering on taking it a touch personal. And that's probably where we have to shed the light on. There has to be some personal background to all this however, it is safe to say ...

- Snowboarders did get some unfair treatment from the skiing public and certainly that is still there, used in marketing and safety concerns.

- Snowboarders do get treated like second rate citizens -woops- customers sometimes.

 

All I said was, " I wanna board Okushiga, Isn't there a better way of doing things, so we see some more happy faces without pissing off the status quo? "

Why can't you guys say, "Hey it's our cool playground but we want to invite you to play on somedays cos we wanna give you that experience, Isn't that cool? "

 

 

[Slippery Jim 65]

Wiggles: Blame? I don't recall handing out any blame.

But if you feel blamed for something, perhaps...

 

Rob, sometimes [like at that Okushiga bottleneck ] there's just not enough room to stay far enough away.

 

GN, you must know the secret way down the mountain at the end of the day. Care to share?

[Slippery Jim 65]

MB, Hobson's Choice you're offering me there: either get out there with a bunch of newbie boarders, or take up boarding myself (and at this age I'd likely break my neck). I'll stick with hanging back and only going through choke points when they aren't crowded.

 

Muika, didn't think you were having a go, just thought maybe I hadn't been clear enough.

[RobBright 35]

Originally Posted By: Slippery Jim

Rob, sometimes [like at that Okushiga bottleneck ] there's just not enough room to stay far enough away.

True. That's when treating people like idiots comes into play.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Originally Posted By: Slippery Jim

MB, Hobson's Choice you're offering me there: either get out there with a bunch of newbie boarders, or take up boarding myself (and at this age I'd likely break my neck). I'll stick with hanging back and only going through choke points when they aren't crowded.

No..I don't think it is that hard Jim.

My friend doesn't pick up spatial stuff real quick, and I don't think the motivation to work out how snowboarders ride was there for her really either - like you it was more of a case of hang back and avoid the crush. But a couple of snowboarding lessons, and me as a ski buddy and she was sort of forced into it

I would rather have a big wide open space to do as I wish and avoid the crush too, but a few occasions - most notably the narrow track back to the village at Zermatt from Patrullarve - I have been forced to learn how to negotiate tight spaces with others. Some people are nice about it, some get super grumpy and pushy.

But it fascinates me watching different peoples lines - how they respond in certain situations - especially crowded bottlenecks (lifts are great vantage points for that). I reckon with a little bit of observation most people can work out where people are tracking. But honest to God it amazes me when you see people heading straight for each other, neither of them aware of it until the last minute when both of them should be! Lots of laughs from the lift! [and a few cringe worthy moments too]

[Jynxx 4]

No rush, hang back ....

 

This is where snowboarding is easier, just side slide all the way, right down the fall line. There's no reason to traverse for boarders. Skiers have a problem there.

[Slippery Jim 65]

MB, I don't think I'm particularly spatially challenged, but boarders at times move suddenly horizontal to the fall line for no discernible (by me, anyway) reason -- nothing they need to avoid, no sudden drop or even increased angle, no bumps upcoming, but there they are moving right across the cat track without even a glance to the blind side.

Again, I'm talking about mainly beginners or low intermediates and I suspect it's a control/balance issue. If you can predict that kind of movement, please let me know the secret.

As I said earlier, I rarely seen annoying behavior these days from boarders, no more than from skiers. We'll always have the 10% to deal with.

[Tex 3]

Great thread! I am with GN off piste is where it is at though I have come unstuck there a few to times also from intersecting paths. Even had a tree jump out and get me once I really don't get the conflict thing, never have: surfboard / boogie board, roller blades / skate board, hang glider / paraglider etc. Each to their own I say.

 

Jim has my vote, it depends on so many variables each discipline has it's problems for those trying to work out what is going on. Ultimately uphill and over taking must take all responsibility. That is the code even if those below don't help any.

 

Lots traverse a snowboard to control speed, easier than turning and washing off speed by broad siding. They lock their edge and 'create a gradient' by the angle of attack down the hill and then, think, get ready and execute a turn indiscriminately with the only real thought being to get it around fast to the same thing on the other edge. I always try and shadow them then turn the opposite way right on their tail.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Originally Posted By: Tex

Lots traverse a snowboard to control speed, easier than turning and washing off speed by broad siding. They lock their edge and 'create a gradient' by the angle of attack down the hill and then, think, get ready and execute a turn indiscriminately with the only real thought being to get it around fast to the same thing on the other edge. I always try and shadow them then turn the opposite way right on their tail.

There is your answer Jim.

I wasn't suggesting you were spatially challenged - merely saying that my friend can be.

There is always going to be the sudden direction changes - for whatever reason ... "ohh bugger, that was where I was supposed to turn off to meet the family"; off balance and needing to hold that edge longer than usual, change of heart in turning because they are freaked by the pitch or snow is a tad icy.... those things sometimes happen with a skier as well.

Id give a wider berth (more margin for error) behind someone who was erratic in their turns because they are obviously being ridden by the mountain rather than riding the mountain. But the best tip of the day in passing snowboarders was definitely handed out by TEX. Shadow them, and when they turn away from you - boom you are gone. I often use that passing skiers as well. If they are headed away from you the chance of collision is remote.
[Especially useful when shadowing an obvious beginner/out of depth rider]

[Slippery Jim 65]

I think at this point we're all tripping all over our boots trying to make sure we haven't offended anyone and that they realized they haven't offended us

 

As far as I'm concerned, everyone can ski/board wherever/whenever they want, though common sense (IMHO) would seem to indicate a bit of caution at mixing up beginners who move in very different ways in narrow places.

 

If I gave anyone the idea that I have trouble avoiding newbie boarders (or skiers) apologies, because I don't -- I just don't like having to avoid them. spoils the perfect serenity that a good run induces.

(Don't like having to avoid clumsy luggage-toting people in Tokyo Station twice a day, either, and I'm very accomplished at that also! )

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Originally Posted By: Slippery Jim

(Don't like having to avoid clumsy luggage-toting people in Tokyo Station twice a day, either, and I'm very accomplished at that also! )

OK...so heads up - 10th and 18th of Jan - I definitely fall under the category of clumsy & luggage totting (big huge snowboard bags in fact!!)

It is certainly beneficial to have some defined beginners area's that are not just the bottom of the hill thoroughfare. Makes every ones life so much easier doesn't it?!

[thursday 1]

Beginner boarders are so much more dangerous than normal people on skis.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Originally Posted By: thursday

Beginner boarders are so much more dangerous than normal people on skis.

Agreed.
The learning curve is pretty massive over the first day or so.

But what is with this 'normal people' bit.

[Jynxx 4]

I don't. Yes, dangourous for themselves cos they might fall and break their wrist, but for taking someone out? You'd be an idiot not to see a noob and not slow down and give a wide berth. You can see that in both skiers and snowboarders that they have just started.

If you are not looking around on the mountain and a noob calling out "gomenasai, gomenasai" and hits you, probably it's your fault for not dodging them.

It's pretty crazy that people have target fixation and don't look around. I see that a lot in paragliding, skydivers under canopy. You'd look around assuming people don't see you when you are on a bike or bicycle, no?

The dangerous ones are on way on the learning curve, pushing over their limit.

ie) like young drivers just on and just after their P plates. The first 2, 3 seasons.

[Jynxx 4]

I don't like it when people don't call out.

Like when they over take each other.

I'm alway looking and think, that person is not looking, I better slowdown, change the course, etc ..

But when someone zips past me from behind, I get scared.

Not many people have eye on their back you know.

[grungy-gonads 54]

So have they decided to let snowboarders in then?

 

[panhead_pete 27]

Originally Posted By: thursday

Beginner boarders are so much more dangerous than normal people on skis.

Normal people board, the others ski.

[SKI 15]

 

More like, "normal people" just don't really care.

[ippy 66]

Woohoo! a tonne of searching later i found the thread.

 

A worthy bump:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwWDMAEYe5c

 

I thought id already posted in this thread...

 

Truth is, i honestly kinda like it, I dont mind skier only areas in truth. Admittedly thats because skier only areas are now in an utter minority. Were it 30 years ago or whatever, then yeah id probably be irked. Or rather in the whole cosmic scheme of things (being a massive wuss (bystander)), id probably be skiing if i even bothered to make it to the snow at all.

 

I digress...

 

I think its fine to have skier only areas NOW. If i was king of the universe id make it so that they couldnt account for more than 10% of the total available ski resorts within about 200kms just to make sure the idea doesnt catch on too much. And once the resorts get their status its dead mans boots for anyone else trying to convert.

 

I also dont think its discrimination at all, (and something thats overlooked by the people at alta in their rather soft arguments)... anyone who can snowboard can ski. That is, you have the means to ski. If you want to play on naspa or okushiga, you can. You just have to have a set of skis on your feet. I also appreciate that resorts need to pull people in to make cash. And may need something that sets them out from their competition. They might have awesome off piste policies, or build a massive super pipe and have frequent nighta events. They might be skier only, or they might have hiking priority up their main gondola line in peak snow season (hello muju). They might offer three generation family discounts (bring grandpa and the kids!) or build their entire operation around their apres ski. i dunno. Whatever gives them something to attract people is possibly (case by case and issue by issue of course), a good thing.

 

I think another good reason against mixed resorts (jesus its sounding jim crow all of a sudden), is that skiers are really ****ing bad at accounting for lines. I also HATE AND DETEST skiers that use you as a slalom pole when youre giving your mate a breather on the side of the resort. I also think snowboarders are very dumb at time pertaining to their blind side and randomly switching their line. But since i have to deal with that one too, i think this isnt an argument skiers get to make.

 

We do destroy their moguls though. Well, i do. Sorry skiers

[Slippery Jim 65]

Hey, destroy all the moguls you want. Plenty of us skiers hate them too.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Having strapped on the skis this season, I reckon - go for it!

Skier only

Border only

Or inclusive everyone welcome.

 

Whatever you like.

Slide, ride, whatever..just remember to smile!

[SKI 15]

Hey how did the petition go?

 

[pie-eater 207]

[ippy 66]

Just went through the thread again and noted the whole unpredictability of snowboarders.

 

Heres how it works for skiers who dont know.

 

ALWAYS WATCH THE HEELSIDE TURN.

 

A heelside turn is a blindside turn. If you are coming passed a snowboarder its generally safe to do so WHEN they are on their heelside and moving to turn onto their toe side.

You can also pass them on their toe edge (on their toe edge side) when they are going to transition on their heel edge.

 

I usually get caught out on this one though because people seem to thoroughly enjoy sitting on their toe edge for much longer than youd think so you both end up getting pulled into the trees waiting for the turn.

 

To be safe, you should probably never come round a snowboarders heel side on a narrow path if they are riding on their toe edge. Since the iron law of snowboarding dictates they must transition to their heel edge, and that this edge is a blind side turn, chances are theyre going to do it just as youre sneaking up to pass them (they cant see you at any point of the transition). In those situations its always best to just follow their toe side line with them until they turn off it. In fact its usually better to follow a snowboarders line and wait for them to drop off it (change edge) rather than try and head perpendicular to it if you can.

 

Snowboarding is pretty predictable.

 

- If you see someone riding on their edge, assume they are at the peak of their arc and moving to change an edge. Its just safer to assume that than assume theyve just started their turn and you have stacks of time to ninja past them.

- Check their back. For goofy riders (right foot leading) its on their right; for regular riders (left foot leading) its on their left.

The absolutely most dangerous edge change is to their heelside (goofy = turning right; regular = turning left). These are blind side turns. Thus for safety sake never approach a snowboarder on their blind side UNLESS that snowboarder is already on their heelside and transitioning to their toe edge.

- When moving to their toe side snowboarders can look up the hill. When moving to their heel edge they often cant. Thats why its their blind side.

- Watch the person riding for a few turns before making your move.

- If youre in a tricky situation and you cant read it, its better that you slow the **** down and try and read it.

 

- A special notification about Rats

 

Hows the terrain? And what are they wearing... sounds stupid but this is almost ironclad as well.

If there are side hits, the dude seems like they can ride a bit and theyre looking kinda stylish, chances are if theres a side hit, theyre gonna take it.

 

Again, thsi is why you watch the people in front of you for a few turns to ascertain what theyre prone to doing. But a side hit might come from nowhere... so you have other visual clues to look out for like style and dress. Are they buttering around a bit (sliding on their nose and tail and throwing out spins)? Chances are that theyll take the first side hit or powder stash theyll find. Prepare for it EVEN IF you have no evidence from their current line to the contrary. Assume they are lost park rats trying to get back their home and give them a lot of space for some seriously unexpected (and massively inconsiderate) line changes.

With these cats you have three things to watch out for:

1. Line changes. Popping into switch means your predictions are now screwed. Are they going to follow this line now? What if they pop back to normal?

2. Serious speed drops. When you start buttering, riding a wall or even pop into switch, youre going to lose a bit of speed (unless your switch is 100% and you just nailed the transition). This means youve suddenly got less time than you figured on your current line and timing calculations.

and 3. Dropping back into the line from a wall. These are notoriously tough to follow. Beware of these especially on a path. Im pretty bad for randomly bursting up walls and dropping back in (also, ill take side hits that put me on my toe edge which often means a blind side drop if i havent switched).

 

Basically any time i see a group of park rats in front of me hitting up the walls, the best thing is just to pass them when you can and get a bit of distance to do your own thing.

 

Remember the iron rule of the ski field: If theyre downhill from you, youre the asshole if you collide. EVEN IF theyre being douchy idiots radomly changing lines. Its still your responsibility to pass them safely and at an appropriate place even if that means reducing your speed a bit, reading their line and waiting for a convenient and safe place to get the hell away from them. EVEN WHEN a douchebag park rat wannabe (me), flies up a wall, then drops speed and youre holiding your line and speed, pops back into the terrain... its still your job as the person uphill to recognise what the hell is going on and expect the return back to their line. (Youre still uphill of them since theyre travelling slower, and youre both on a collision course. If you were downhill of them youd have passed them).

 

Its annoying dealing with boarders who leap at side hits, but then again so are people who think because youve climbed a wall that you now no longer exist... Weve got two fekking choices. Up or down. Once we hit the peak of the arc WE ARE COMING BACK DOWN. We dont have an engine, we have gravity. Where the **** do you think we're going? Sorry, er ranting... Basically pay attention. Even if its park rats on side hits, who are the WORST, its still your job as the person uphill to figure out when its safe to pass. And this might mean delaying and slowing down once in a while.

 

There you go. Public service message for people terrified of snowboarders.

 

ETA:

 

I forgot to mention these cats:

 

Beginners.

- Again this falls under the whole WATCH THEIR LINE FOR A FEW TURNS. You can spot a beginner very easily. Are they side sliding and taking up half the width of the path? SLOW THE **** DOWN.

 

I cant stress this enough. Slow down around beginners. They are massively unpredictable if only because theyre probably gonna catch an edge and land exactly under your feet. You screaming past them almost guarantees they crap themselves and land on their face. Treat them like the terrified easily startled children that they are. They dont realise that this line requires speed to not have to unclip, they dont realise that they really shouldnt be side sliding a path thats about three boards wide. They just wanna explore the mountain and are having fun doing it (even if they just destroyed all the good snow on that red run by ploughing their way down it because it was a bit too steep for them after all). Best way to ride safe near them is to a) give them a MASSIVE berth or b ) slow down. Not all that complicated.

[Slippery Jim 65]

Or, to make a long rant short, boarders are going to stupidly turn without looking so skiers are on their own. :thumbsdown: