@tokyo 14 Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Very interested read folks. I never really thought about that with Hokkaido, Go Native. Link to post Share on other sites
keba 0 Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 There you go, didn't realise that at all GN. I just assumed it was all part of the old feudal system that existed on the other islands. It did seem odd to me tht Sapporo should be laid out like it is. Quick google search leads me to discover the Ainu, the indigenous people of Hokkaido, who would probably take offence to your comments, much as an Aboriginal Australian would about the same being said of Australia. But now we're way off thread... Link to post Share on other sites
2pints-mate 0 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Yes I remember seeing a map of Sapporo and after being in Tokyo and other cities being surprised at how gridline it looked rather than the unplanned mess of others. Link to post Share on other sites
Kingofmyrrh 0 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Grid system cities have been around in Japan for well over a thousand years, let's not just go making up our own convenient histories (although I do largely agree with what GN says otherwise). Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Yes, I can think of so many....... Link to post Share on other sites
Kingofmyrrh 0 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Originally Posted By: SKI Yes, I can think of so many....... I'll give you until tomorrow to save yourself from embarrassment....... Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 That is so big of you. I'm honored. As must Go Native be that you largely agree with his other points. Link to post Share on other sites
Rag-Doll 0 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 um.. Nara and Kyoto are two that sping to mind. 10min on wiki searching Japanese history will tell when and why grid systems are not new to Japan. That said, any logic to Sapporo's city planning doesn't share the same history as those places. It really cracks me up, this whole "cultural ski trip" thing. What a load of nonsense. If you want to get a feel for Japanese culture take an extra week and spend some time in Kyoto or in Takayama or some of the other more out of the way places that still retain a lot of pre-Meiji history. Go there, see it and enjoy yourself and then head to the snow and be glad that at some resorts you can actually get a decent meal and stay in a decent hotel that doesn't close down at 9pm. Alternatively, spend some time in Tokyo after your trip, check out Ginza and Omote Sando and Harajuku and Shibuya and places like that to see 21st cent Japan and then visit Hiroshima, Nikko and the Yasukuni shrine and the Japanese war museum - this will give your a sense of how the Japanese see themselves and where they come from. Check out Matsumoto castle or the Himeji castle - I'm pretty sure these are a couple of the few remaining originals most are post war repos. Link to post Share on other sites
klingon 10 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Quote: It really cracks me up, this whole "cultural ski trip" thing. What a load of nonsense. Just because it is "nonsense" to you does not mean it has to be for everyone. Link to post Share on other sites
Rag-Doll 0 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 I know I'm given to gross generalisations, it is my one vice but I reckon there is a bt of substance to this. Exactly what sort of culture are people hoping to see? there isn't a Japanese alpine tradition, snow sports are a relatively (well less than 100 yrs)new thing for Japanese mountains. So what people see when they visit a Japanese ski resort is often a poor imitation of european ski culture (at best) or some gaudy-hello kitty- type thing. There were also numerous ski fields that were developed during the Japanese bubble that simply have nothing to recommend them and aren't financially viable, hence 80's style is theme of the day. What exactly do people expect to see when they look for Japanese culture at a ski resort. Japanese rurual towns are a study in appalling town planning with drab grey block buldings under a rat's nest of telephone, power, cable TV wires. It is a good thing the Japanese snow is as good as it is, coz there is bugger all else to do in the inaka in the winter time. Link to post Share on other sites
Rag-Doll 0 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Back on topic... A person in the know in Niseko tells me that bookings are slow and that there have been a very large number of cancellations despite discounts being offered to those bookings already deposited. Feb rates are now running at a 40%+ discount over last year's prices. The people really hurting will be the property managers and the tour operators. They will be geared up for client levels that simply won't be present. Not sure about developers though, the holding costs won't be that high - yen rate still really low and probably a lot of this year's developments would have been close to being finished by the time the crunch came so they would have been able to offload them. Still, there would be a lot of capital tied up in land banks that now look very unlikely to be sold at anything near what they were worth 6 mths ago. I wish I was still earning yen, there will be some bargins coming up I reckon. Link to post Share on other sites
Rag-Doll 0 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Originally Posted By: Rag-Doll I know I'm given to gross generalisations, it is my one vice but I reckon there is a bt of substance to this. Exactly what sort of culture are people hoping to see? there isn't a Japanese alpine tradition, snow sports are a relatively (well less than 100 yrs)new thing for Japanese mountains. So what people see when they visit a Japanese ski resort is often a poor imitation of european ski culture (at best) or some gaudy-hello kitty- type thing. There were also numerous ski fields that were developed during the Japanese bubble that simply have nothing to recommend them and aren't financially viable, hence 80's style is theme of the day. What exactly do people expect to see when they look for Japanese culture at a ski resort. Japanese rurual towns are a study in appalling town planning with drab grey block buldings under a rat's nest of telephone, power, cable TV wires. It is a good thing the Japanese snow is as good as it is, coz there is bugger all else to do in the inaka in the winter time. let me calrify this a litte - places like nozawa, which was a spa town before it was a ski town have a little something extra, as does hakuba and probably a others but they're the exception. Link to post Share on other sites
oo 1 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 I know people who come to ski and take in Kyoto or other places as part of their trip. This cultural thing isnt limited to the concept of the ski resorts themselves somehow being the main part of that cultural experience. Others just enjoy coming to Japan and finding their way around, exploring, mixing with locals, checking out the shopping.... whatevers your bag. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Skiing is skiing. I go to Japan to ski when on a ski holiday. For other things I go other times. Link to post Share on other sites
Rag-Doll 0 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Originally Posted By: oo I know people who come to ski and take in Kyoto or other places as part of their trip. This cultural thing isnt limited to the concept of the ski resorts themselves somehow being the main part of that cultural experience. Others just enjoy coming to Japan and finding their way around, exploring, mixing with locals, checking out the shopping.... whatevers your bag. That's my point exactly, so why do we have people who moan about a resort being westernised or being over run by Aussies? as Thursday says, go to the snow to ski. Link to post Share on other sites
Kingofmyrrh 0 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Originally Posted By: Rag-Doll um.. Nara and Kyoto are two that sping to mind. 10min on wiki searching Japanese history will tell when and why grid systems are not new to Japan. That said, any logic to Sapporo's city planning doesn't share the same history as those places. It really cracks me up, this whole "cultural ski trip" thing. What a load of nonsense. If you want to get a feel for Japanese culture take an extra week and spend some time in Kyoto or in Takayama or some of the other more out of the way places that still retain a lot of pre-Meiji history. Go there, see it and enjoy yourself and then head to the snow and be glad that at some resorts you can actually get a decent meal and stay in a decent hotel that doesn't close down at 9pm. Alternatively, spend some time in Tokyo after your trip, check out Ginza and Omote Sando and Harajuku and Shibuya and places like that to see 21st cent Japan and then visit Hiroshima, Nikko and the Yasukuni shrine and the Japanese war museum - this will give your a sense of how the Japanese see themselves and where they come from. Check out Matsumoto castle or the Himeji castle - I'm pretty sure these are a couple of the few remaining originals most are post war repos. Ragdoll for the win! Link to post Share on other sites
keba 0 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Originally Posted By: Rag-Doll let me calrify this a litte - places like nozawa, which was a spa town before it was a ski town have a little something extra, as does hakuba and probably a others but they're the exception. And guess what, RD, when we were last in Hakuba, that's exactly what we did. We took a day to go back to Nozawa Onsen to show off our little boy to our old hosts from a couple of years back, and soak up some of the village atmosphere. No skiing. Get that? We went to Nozawa Onsen and didn't ski. We also visited the snow monkeys another day and drove to Nagano, visited the shrine there, did some shopping for art prints and ate some Manju cake. We were in Hakuba for 13 days, and skied for 7 of those. It isn't everything, you know. Don't try and tell me you can't mix a ski trip with enjoying the other things Japan, or any destination, has to offer. You holiday how you like, and I'll continue to do it my way. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 The hotel I'm booked at is still very full and hiked about 20% from last year. Hotels which perhaps have an 80% Japanese clientele are not offering any discounts I know of. But any more information most welcome. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Shudder. I'm certainly licking my wounds this morning. But enough of playing along with fools. I know a few people with places in Niseko. Here's their situation: Mr A 10% cancellations, but as of now all but a few spaces have been filled back in. Mr B He's fully booked for throughout the peak season. March is very slow but it usually is fairly slow anyway. They rely on the foreign market more than they do Japanese. Link to post Share on other sites
ShinyDiscoBall 2 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 I bet loads of people come for a ski + other Japan trip. Quote: so why do we have people who moan about a resort being westernised or being over run by Aussies? Cuz it would feel more like Japan if there were, er, Japanese on the slopes. Some of that exoticness ( that you so love Rag-Doll ) gets diluted away. Just a guess. Link to post Share on other sites
Rag-Doll 0 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Originally Posted By: keba Originally Posted By: Rag-Doll let me calrify this a litte - places like nozawa, which was a spa town before it was a ski town have a little something extra, as does hakuba and probably a others but they're the exception. And guess what, RD, when we were last in Hakuba, that's exactly what we did. We took a day to go back to Nozawa Onsen to show off our little boy to our old hosts from a couple of years back, and soak up some of the village atmosphere. No skiing. Get that? We went to Nozawa Onsen and didn't ski. We also visited the snow monkeys another day and drove to Nagano, visited the shrine there, did some shopping for art prints and ate some Manju cake. We were in Hakuba for 13 days, and skied for 7 of those. It isn't everything, you know. Don't try and tell me you can't mix a ski trip with enjoying the other things Japan, or any destination, has to offer. You holiday how you like, and I'll continue to do it my way. I'm not saying your can't mix the two, I'm saying don't complain that you can't do two at the same time at Japanese ski resort - jeez, read the post. I think you just have a problem with the idea of your quaint view of rustic Japan being modernised. Here is the thing - good old quaint Nozawa, how much money do you reckon the resort is making? How much do you reckon they desparately need more visitors? where are they going to come from? What are they going to want, why is Niseko so very popular with foreign visitors? Yes, some of it is marketing and some of it is the mountain and snow but the additional services that have been added over the past 4-5 years have been done in response to visitor needs - child care, decent accom, decent lifts sevices, decent places to eat because there is only so much chicken skin yakitori a person can eat. So Keba, I reckon you're more of a type 2 kind of guy. You'd much rather watch rurual Japanese struggle to make ends meet than see them develop their business and, god forbid, attract international visitors. The next big thing will be Chinese, mainland Chinese. If anybody reckons the Aussies were bad, you ain't seen nothing yet! Link to post Share on other sites
big-will 7 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Quote: because there is only so much chicken skin yakitori a person can eat Tons of sense being said there (not just the yaki-skin bit either). Isn't there a barrier issue with mainland Chinese getting visas to visit? Link to post Share on other sites
Rag-Doll 0 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Ski, Different places are obviousy affected to different degrees - my numbers come from oneof the main property managers in Niseko. The rates apply to all their apartments, which number in the hundreds. A fair sample I'd say. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 I agree with RD on this. You never see people complaining about lack of culture from any other ski areas around the world. At least I haven't. Link to post Share on other sites
Rag-Doll 0 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Yeah, Big-Will I think there is, but one day; one day they will come and then people will be sorry they used to bag the Aussies!!! Link to post Share on other sites
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