Selling ski lift tickets and buying them (legality & morality of...)

[Jynxx 4]

TB you have made a financial gain. Over all it might be a negative. But you had the run. Doesn't matter if one person has 2 runs or 20 runs. So for that same matter it's your business to use it for a full day or half day. I agree wholeheartedly there should be half day tickets and 2hrs, 3hrs tickets like Europe. But once bought, you can not redeem it for financial gain. at what ever the price tag. That's hawking. It's not in your rights to sell it.

That's why I say give it away! hence it is a moral issue. If you don't agree it is a moral issue, then the Japanese will have to enforce it as such, and then the police comes in, and I am afraid you just have to respect the moral standards of the country you are visiting. Or sodd off.

I am propagating what I consider to be hip in a Japanese way. Don't expect you to understand it.

[Jynxx 4]

It really is strange when I see a thread about "Stolen things at Japanese resorts" and you all know it doesn't happen that much and appreciate that fact.

Why is it OK to rip off companies when you don't do it to individuals.

I do think we all think about morals in some way and here we are not going to agree on it.

I rather not see cops hanging around or signs posted "Penalty $100"

[gareth_oau 2]

problem would be solved if a genuine 'user pays' system was installed.

 

you pre-buy a bunch of tokens and each time you get on the lift, you insert a token - the more you ride, the more you buy. tokens can be refunded or onsold without any issues.

[Thundercat 60]

For all of those who disagree with 'on-selling' the ticket, what do you think about just freely giving the ticket away?

[fukdane 2]

Originally Posted By: fukdane

Someone (Japanese) came up to me once when I was leaving a resort at 1:30 - wasn't feeling too well - asking to buy my ticket from me. I pointed them in the direction of the ticket box at the resort.

Just doing my bit.

[gurgle 0]

Originally Posted By: Black Mountain

For all of those who disagree with 'on-selling' the ticket, what do you think about just freely giving the ticket away?

Not transferable means not transferable, regardless of whether you receive cash or not, so it is still illegal for someone to use a ticket that they did not purchase themselves.

It all goes back to the issue of the financial viability of the resorts. If everyone starts giving away or selling tickets, it takes revenue away from the resorts, and plenty of resorts in Japan are struggling as it is.

Do you like waiting in line in the morning "because it's too windy" up top, or waiting for the higher lifts to open ? You will be waiting around longer and seeing more lifts closed if the resorts are receiving less revenue, because they will have even less people working at them than they do now, let alone haivng to pay the power bills.

On-selling tickets or even giving them away robs the resorts of revenue and that effects all of us.

[gerard 6]

Originally Posted By: SKI

Because it is illegal re: the terms of you making the purchase in the first place.

Originally Posted By: thursday

People just have to grasp the fact that resorts are hanging on for their lives. Do the right thing.

I find the second argument more compeling than the first.

[Thundercat 60]

Originally Posted By: gurgle

You will be waiting around longer and seeing more lifts closed if the resorts are receiving less revenue, because they will have even less people working at them than they do now, let alone haivng to pay the power bills.

Maybe we should start a charity for these poor struggling ski resorts... I have a really really hard time believing that someone would simply throw their ticket in the trash instead of handing it off to someone who could make some good use of it. As has been pointed out before, resorts never offer refunds under any conditions, even when they close the lifts for the day. Earlier this year I lost 3 days from a 5 day pass at Grand Hirafu because they lifts were closed. (not a single lift was running for 2 of the days while only the Holiday lifts were running on the third.) I really have to wonder who is ripping off whom in cases like this!

[JA2340 16]

So ...to take the "non-refundable" argument to an extreme, How about if I buy a '5 days' lift ticket which says in the fine print that it is for consecutive days (These things are never spelled out in bold before you buy, are they?).

If, because of illness for example, I am unable to use the third day - why should I not be able to extend the use by a day. Illness not my making, not the fault of the lift co either.

 

Comments, anyone?

[gurgle 0]

Originally Posted By: Black Mountain

Originally Posted By: gurgle

You will be waiting around longer and seeing more lifts closed if the resorts are receiving less revenue, because they will have even less people working at them than they do now, let alone haivng to pay the power bills.

Maybe we should start a charity for these poor struggling ski resorts... I have a really really hard time believing that someone would simply throw their ticket in the trash instead of handing it off to someone who could make some good use of it. As has been pointed out before, resorts never offer refunds under any conditions, even when they close the lifts for the day. Earlier this year I lost 3 days from a 5 day pass at Grand Hirafu because they lifts were closed. (not a single lift was running for 2 of the days while only the Holiday lifts were running on the third.) I really have to wonder who is ripping off whom in cases like this!

That's a pretty extreme no refund policy for sure. Presmuably you complained loudly and hopefully they will get the message and change the policy for multi-day tickets at least. However, the fact remains that the resorts ARE struggling. If everyone adopted the practice of on-selling or even giving away their tickets for free, which would seem perfectly acceptable to many on this forum, their revenue would drop dramatically (theoretically it could halve) and given that they ARE struggling now, some would have to close. I don't want my regular resort to have to close.

[oblivion 5]

Quote:

which would seem perfectly acceptable to many on this forum

Perhaps you should change that to "some" and don't brush the majority with the opinions of a vocal minority.

[gurgle 0]

Originally Posted By: oblivion

Quote:

which would seem perfectly acceptable to many on this forum

Perhaps you should change that to "some" and don't brush the majority with the opinions of a vocal minority.

I am sure you are right, but I am feeling like the minority on this thread......

[thursday 1]

poll

[HelperElfMissy 42]

POLL might be one way - but the responses are again biased in that it is only the people who are interested in the topic who will respond.

 

I hear what you guys are saying - and I agree with you that we want to do whatever we can to keep the resorts open and flourishing. Never having given away a ticket myself - even if I took a day off - it sat in the bar with me ;-) .... I think I would probably decide similarly to Gurgle.

 

But I can't help but see how it seems totally logical to pass an unused portion of a ticket to a mate if you are unable to use it. Say you break your arm on day two of a two week trip - you have bought a ticket for the two weeks ... your mate arrives a day or two later and instead of buying a brand new ticket - he uses the one you purchased and have just got sitting around doing nothing. Same net result would have been achieved if you had bought a day by day ticket thereby not getting stuck with an unused portin after being injured.

 

I understand the logic.

I understand the resort requires people to spend (so I willingly oblige on new gear, good food, far too much booze, lessons ...etc etc).

And I wholeheartedly agree that scalping tickets or going looking for a half day bargain is not right.

But I reckon youd be hard pressed to find too many people who would hold onto thier expensive two week pass in thier jacket pocket while they spend the balance of thier vacation propping up the bar through the day time, when thier best mate has just flown in passless.... Not that you would expect your mate to BUY it off you - but maybe buy you a few appreciative beers to drown the arm pain...

 

My 2c.

[keba 0]

In my own case, I was met at the base of a resort in Hakuba, by another gaijin coming off the hill at 9:30am. He offered me his day pass for Y1000. Am I to righteously say "No, thank you", and head to the ticket counter? I'm sorry, I know the resorts (along with most of the rest of the J economy) are struggling, but sorry, I'm just not that altruistic. I use thepiratebay occasionally too.

 

There. Off my chest.

[gerard 6]

Originally Posted By: Mamabear

POLL might be one way - but the responses are again biased in that it is only the people who are interested in the topic who will respond.

Yes. Certainly we must adhere to the highest scientifc standards of reliability and validity.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

LOL @ ger.

 

Sowwwwwy ..you can take the girl out of research but you cant take the pedantic researcher out of the girl!...

 

LOL

[Jynxx 4]

Here's a bit of Japanese history...

In the past there were multiple use tickets. It was a square or round piece of cardboard with numbers on the fringe. Use one, get clipped one. You can use it with your mate. Pay for 10 get 11 or 12. (That's right, they sold single tickets) Can use it for the whole season. No refund for the unused portion. No half day tickets. This does the job.

My guess is they stopped doing this because it is labour intensive.. and it can be used for the whole season, people weren't buying day tickets unless you were fast, eager, on weekdays when not crowded.

Then came the day tickets with sticky tape. It was like a tape you peel the back and stick it on your pole. You show this to the attendant. Modern resorts where they have lift-drop scam problems should go back to this.

I buy my ticket on that day and never buy 5day tickets because you can never be sure about the next day weather.

cheers

[Tubby Beaver 209]

Originally Posted By: Jynxx

TB you have made a financial gain. Over all it might be a negative. But you had the run. Doesn't matter if one person has 2 runs or 20 runs. So for that same matter it's your business to use it for a full day or half day. I agree wholeheartedly there should be half day tickets and 2hrs, 3hrs tickets like Europe. But once bought, you can not redeem it for financial gain. at what ever the price tag. That's hawking. It's not in your rights to sell it.
That's why I say give it away! hence it is a moral issue. If you don't agree it is a moral issue, then the Japanese will have to enforce it as such, and then the police comes in, and I am afraid you just have to respect the moral standards of the country you are visiting. Or sodd off.
I am propagating what I consider to be hip in a Japanese way. Don't expect you to understand it.

how can I make a financial gain on something I sell for less than I bought??

[Tubby Beaver 209]

Originally Posted By: gurgle

Originally Posted By: Black Mountain

Originally Posted By: gurgle

You will be waiting around longer and seeing more lifts closed if the resorts are receiving less revenue, because they will have even less people working at them than they do now, let alone haivng to pay the power bills.

Maybe we should start a charity for these poor struggling ski resorts... I have a really really hard time believing that someone would simply throw their ticket in the trash instead of handing it off to someone who could make some good use of it. As has been pointed out before, resorts never offer refunds under any conditions, even when they close the lifts for the day. Earlier this year I lost 3 days from a 5 day pass at Grand Hirafu because they lifts were closed. (not a single lift was running for 2 of the days while only the Holiday lifts were running on the third.) I really have to wonder who is ripping off whom in cases like this!

That's a pretty extreme no refund policy for sure. Presmuably you complained loudly and hopefully they will get the message and change the policy for multi-day tickets at least. However, the fact remains that the resorts ARE struggling. If everyone adopted the practice of on-selling or even giving away their tickets for free, which would seem perfectly acceptable to many on this forum, their revenue would drop dramatically (theoretically it could halve) and given that they ARE struggling now, some would have to close. I don't want my regular resort to have to close.

I don't necessarily agree there. Why would it half? I have bought a whole day's ticket and not used it, so 2 halves make 1 whole, I use half so does someone else, its still 1 person in effect using the chair, its not as if I'm sneaking on afterwards. That person will still spend some money in resort in terms of drinks and maybe food.....so to say that its gonna half is bull. Of curse you could say that they would have to buy a full ticket and that is the resort losing that potential money but then that can also be argued as robbing the consumer as you have 1 full ticket coming off at half time.

[veronica 2]

But surely its the customers choice if they come off at half time? Places I have been all had half day tickets.

 

If I go, I always use it all up myself so I haven't been in the situatuion of thinking about it!

[veronica 2]

I'm with gurgle too btw I reckon.

[RobBright 35]

Originally Posted By: muikabochi

Quote:

resorts don't tend to offer tickets for mornings only

Really? I think almost every resort in this area has an AM and PM ticket.

And most of them overlap dont they?

Like morning till 1pm, then midday until close?

[Thundercat 60]

Hmmm... I guess the reason I'm not being won over is that there are really only 2 reasons not to onsell or give away your tickets. One is that it's illegal as per your agreement with the company when buying their ticket. And the other reason it that it hurts the resorts business.

 

If you follow the 'it's illegal so you shouldn't do it' line of reasoning than I have to say 'hypocrite'. Everyone speeds, crosses the street where there is no crosswalk or whatever from time to time. Further, the terms of agreement are pretty vague at resorts as you almost never see anything in writing and simply making the purchase is hardly a formal agreement when one party is not formally informed of the terms of that agreement.

 

If you follow the 'bad for business' line of reasoning than I tend to agree, to some extent. But realistically, all business is hurt by onselling and giving away products. Should we ban all recycle shops, second hand stores or used charity organizations because they negatively effect a companies bottom line? No, of course not. Onselling an unused portion of you ticket will only hurt a ski resort's business if they haven't already factored that type of activity into their business model. It would be very shortsighted to not have a means of discouraging that type of behavior, whether it be through offering coupons or better options for hourly passes, points for lifts or other incentives for customers to buy directly from the resorts.

 

The resort I've been going to for years has been offering discount coupons that can be redeemed for lunch tickets or discounts on future purchases of lift tickets and I would say that they have completely taken away any excuse for their customers to buy 'onsold' tickets.

 

In my opinion, the only resorts that are truely hurt by the very few people who 'onsell' or give away their lift tickets are the resorts who are not offering a satisfactory product to their customers.

[NoFakie 45]

The problem with half day tix is that they are too expensive relative to the full day. 3300 as compared to 4600, for example. They don't package them as they do full day tickets either. Lodges don't get to sell discounted half day passes even though loads of people head home early because they don't want to drive in the dark, etc. With more flexible pricing, fewer customers would be left with unused tickets. A good number of them go home early every time.

 

As an example of flexible pricing, Niseko does

 

30-hour pass 20,400 yen

50-hour pass 31,000 yen

 

So you can go twenty times for 2.5hrs on average for 31,000. At Hakuba, that would cost over double. If you live locally, work, and have got kids, two or three hours is sometimes all you can do. For someone visiting Hakuba, they could do a 6hr day/4hr day weekend five times. As things stand, that would cost 40,000. I'm sure there used to be a 10-day 35000 ticket at Happo, but it looks like they've stopped doing it.

 

Falling customers is a problem, but passing on tickets has been going on for years. Blaming customers is no way for a service industry to stay in business. They should be looking at better ways of offering value for money.