Siem Reeves 0 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 ok, i just want an idea of what people think of this wee situation we currently have at our local hill. we have been skiing off the trail regularly and so do a few people we know. the patrol kinda know that we go there, but to date, we have only got little reprimands like "don't go there", "you should stay on the course" or a few fed up looks because we can't really understand what they are saying, but generally, we haven't had any trouble and don't go looking for it. a couple of weekends ago, a foreigner i don't know got stuck in the snow, off the trail with a japanese friend and were about chest deep in the powder, not a long way from the trail, but off it nonetheless (not sure if they had taken off their skis or what, the snow was only thigh deep on skis). we saw them, and one guy asked jared if he had any snow shoes. we didn't, and were in a rush to meet someone, so left them to it, thinking they would make their way back on to the trail eventually... it would probably have taken a while (friends of ours have taken 1-2 hours to climb out of gullies - not that these guys were in one...) but there wasn't any danger... i dunno how they got in that predicament, but we hear later that one guy managed to get out and ski down under the gondola and went to get the patrol to help get his friend out of the snow. ok, so the point is that they had to get the patrol to help in a situation where i can't help but feel that could have tried a little harder to get out, being in the mindset that if you are going to go into out of bounds areas, you should be at least prepared to get yourself out. this is especially since the week after that incident, an english sign appears (where there was never one before) that is pretty difficult to read since the english doesn't really make much sense, but we got the gist of it. stay out of the "wood", off the "lift line" (meaning under the lifts or gondolas) etc, etc, or your pass will be confiscated. i know that that is what we risk for going off the trail, but now the patrol are making an explicit point, and we can't help but feel like we are being followed sometimes... we're not that easy to miss... so, any comments? Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Well, if you are not supposed to go there, they have told you more than a few times not to go there, and you still persist in going there - it seems very reasonable that they might be getting fed up and trying to do something about the situation. Don't you think? Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Shimba just be careful Im surprised that you guys cant speak a little by now. Show the patrol if they catch you that your prepared to be there. Dont fight them talk to them but yeah it sucks. The resorts dont understand that they cant stop it its the future you have to control it by opening ie Niseko. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Yes, good point. I forgot to say that too... try to talk with them and be positive rather than being 'enemies'. The patrol are just doing their job. Link to post Share on other sites
mattlucas 0 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 SKI - Do you go off the runs? Link to post Share on other sites
freerider 0 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 riding out of bounds is a lot like robbing a bank (to put it metaphocially) you plan what your going to do, make sure your crew is set, then get in there and do it, and then get the hell outta there as fast as you can! no hanging around admiring your lines or taking happy snaps. just tear it to the closest lift go the 'high 5' with your mates, and plan you next one on the way back up! that crew that ended up walking out... well, its probably a good thing and has taught them a lesson! they prob wont go there again. as for the patrol - they do have a job to do, and in all fairness a pretty serious one, so if your asking them for help when your not meant to be there in the first place, you should expect to cop some grief. if your going to ride out of bounds you should be prepared for the worst anyway. just my thoughts. fr Link to post Share on other sites
mogski 0 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I think the point here freerider is that you shouldn't have to feel like a criminial if you are prepared and experienced to be in there. Link to post Share on other sites
snowboard_freak 0 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I am yet to be spoken to about going "off course". I spent a lot of my time in Niseko riding off course and ducking ropes and the like and i never got spoken to or anything. I even had time to stop and take and take happy snaps. I didn't feel like a criminal either. By the sounds of it a lot of the Japanese resorts need to do a similar thing as in Niseko. Link to post Share on other sites
woywoy 0 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 When are we going to see the pics freak? Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Quote: Originally posted by snowboard_freak: By the sounds of it a lot of the Japanese resorts need to do a similar thing as in Niseko. This would be risky unless other J resorts decide to start managing the av risk. That's the problem here: no one takes ownership, sets direction, manages effectively and optimises resources. They just stick there big heads in the friggin sand and put ropes up all over the place thus weakening any respect that a potential rope ducker has for management and the risks that have been left un-recognised….. thus substantially increasing the risk. And yes [certain forum member] people will ALWAYS DUCK THESE ROPES, regardless of the rules. It is human nature to do bigger and better. In Japan it seems that managing a potential problem/risk is to admit that it exists which for some stupid reason, is not desirable. Thus with one blanket throw of the rope, all “bigger and betters” are ruled out, regardless of whether they pose a risk or not. Management feels effective (undeserved). They are more than likely inept and ignorant. Seekers of B&B are perpetually tempted at every rope they see and sooner or later one will get ducked and it will be the one that should never have been ducked: someone dies. Management could have avoided the death by putting up ropes where they are merited and managing the remaining risk according to proven effective international standards and methods. Until they do they can drop the friggin stupid kokusai from their resort names and logos. Yet again, form over function. And that is my opinion on the matter. Link to post Share on other sites
snowboard_freak 0 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I didnt take many photos at all this time around. I went over with every intention of taking a heap, but i just didnt. They are pretty much all scenic shots and lines. Not overly exciting. But i'll probably stick some on my member page when i can be bothered. I want to scan a couple of normal photos in too. Link to post Share on other sites
peaker 0 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I can understand resorts being a little aprehensive about their area becoming off piste training areas. They are in a situation of being partially responsible particularly if you are within the resort area. If you are riding in between lifts etc. they have every reason to be concerned especially with the stories like we see above with gumby riders wallowing in snow for hours trying to get out of spots within sight of the resort. Areas like niseko have huge alpine areas above them and they make it quite clear where their resposibility ends. You still see plenty of avalanche poodles heading out to test the snow for everyone up there. If you want to ride off piste why dont you just hire a guide and do it properly and stop pissing off ski patrol. Link to post Share on other sites
akemi7 0 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I live in Sapporo and have some friend who working in some resort in area - Kiroro, Rusutsu and also Niseko. I spoke them about some thing and we talk about English skier and snowboar and this site. They told me that general there is bad reputation of foreigner for doing like this and cause trouble. It is what I heard from them. Link to post Share on other sites
Siem Reeves 0 Posted February 14, 2004 Author Share Posted February 14, 2004 well, i suppose this is difficult to explain... Quote: Shimba just be careful Im surprised that you guys cant speak a little by now We can speak a bit now, and i can usually understand most of what they say, but conversations are pretty short, and all together quite pleasant, which is why suddenly having these signs put up is a little off putting, becuase we were ok with the patrol until someone else kinda gave all us gaijin a bad rep. Quote: try to talk with them and be positive rather than being 'enemies'. The patrol are just doing their job. i definately don't think badly of the patrol, i completely agree they are doing their jobs. unfortunately, i know that most of the patrol aren't interested in off piste and don't want to have to rescue anyone off the trail (which is fair enough, i suppose). however, the head patroller is a bit of a powder hound and skis the powder outside the limits of the resort whenever he can... which is what we do a lot of the time anyway... but long hikes and two hour walks out to hitch a ride back to the carpark aren't always that great... Quote: I spoke them about some thing and we talk about English skier and snowboar and this site. They told me that general there is bad reputation of foreigner for doing like this and cause trouble. It is what I heard from them. but the thing is, that there are just as many japanese people doing it as foreigners, but unfortunately, it's easier to point the finger at the people who stick out the most as being a distinct group who go out of bounds. Quote: If you want to ride off piste why dont you just hire a guide and do it properly and stop pissing off ski patrol. ummm, we wish there were guides, but no luck there... as it is, we don't really need guides because it really is a small area... that's more hakkoda (where we do ski with guides). as for pissing off ski patrol, that's the crux of it. we have never really pissed them off, someone else did and now we are kinda paying for it. anyway, some good points made Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Yeah I hate it when Japanese people think its only Gaijins its their solution to everything. I know more Japanese that ski out of bounds than gaijins. But its us Gaijins that are creating the problem, oh yes it has to be the gaijins. Akemi thats racist BS if you dont understand it look it up. Link to post Share on other sites
akemi7 0 Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 No it is not racist BS (?), it is true because they have had many problem involving foreigner. If that is actual fact , is it still racist? I don't think so. They did say some Japanese also doing it, but relativelly (?) there is many foreigner. Anyway, it is not me I do not work there. Link to post Share on other sites
indosnm 0 Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Of course we stick out and they remember us more than they do Japanese. That's why it's up to the one's that get caught to be decent about it. Certain incidents that have happened no doubt get spread around Japan giving us whitey's a bad name. I think that if you get caught out of bounds bad luck and accept the consequences because it's the risk you too when you ducked. If you don't get caught then you're a bloody legend! Having said that, if the patrol asked me for my pass it wouldn't hand it over to willingly either! Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 So, you really don't think that there are relatively way more foreigners doing the off course thing than there are Japanese? If you really believe that, you are just simply incorrect. Of course there are Japanese doing it as well, but for the small numbers of foreigners in total, relatively the numbers doing it way outnumbers Japanese and it is very reasonable for some places to feel that there is a problem. And before people start with the silly "racist BS" card, they should actually look at their own behaviour and those around them to see why things might be happening. akemi7 - even if what you say is completely true, you might as well give up wanting any kind of balanced discussion on the matter here. Link to post Share on other sites
brit-gob 9 Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Bits of both. From what I have seen myself, there are relatively a lot of gaijin doing the offcourse thing, but at the same time they are easier to spot. Shame about there being no guides Shimba - where is your local hill?? Link to post Share on other sites
indosnm 0 Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Quote: Originally posted by SKI: So, you really don't think that there are relatively way more foreigners doing the off course thing than there are Japanese? If you really believe that, you are just simply incorrect. SKI, who's that Q directed at? All the J crew that i am associated with thru my shop ( around 50 crew that I know) all hunt the soft stuff in areas they shouldn't be in. I also avoid resorts that are very popular with "gaijin" and rarely ever see anyone other than Japanese out of bounds. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Who's the Q directed to? Anyone it applies to. I know of only one or two Japanese that go off-course. The vast majority of places that I go to - in Nagano, Niigata, Gunma, Yamagata - when I see someone off course it is invariably a foreigner. Link to post Share on other sites
lemonhead 0 Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 This kind of subject seems to be really "controversial". Anyhows, I'm still a beginner and have seen some people in the deep powder. Looks great, but I don't have enough confidence to take the plunge. How do you suggest I start out being naughty Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Yes but that is hardly the point, now, is it slow? It "looking good" does not make it ok. Link to post Share on other sites
slow 0 Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Gaijin or Japanese, is it such a big deal?? There are some reckless people everywhere. I feel the same, lemonhead! They just look great whichever Gaijin or Japanese, don't they? Sorry SKI, I just wanted to add this, Whichever Gaijin or Japanese, if they have knowledge of winter mountain and well-prepared, they look great! Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 No probs! (Still don't make it ok though ) Link to post Share on other sites
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