xxx 2 Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 I love (the intelligent parts - both sides) of threads like this. Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 Hold on DS - The military is not untouchable. There are some folks right now under arrest for stealing Iraqi "treasure" among other things. I think the point folks are trying to say is, don't blame "the military" for the war - they just do what they're told. There is a distinct difference between the messenger, and the persons who created the message. If people want to disagree with it, thats fine, but they need to focus their feelings on the folks who create it, not the folks who execute it. Link to post Share on other sites
DumbStick 13 Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 I would never myself join the military as I could never do what they do (a big part of that being going in and possibly have to kill other people). And face it, for the most part if anyone says anything against the military (apart from a few possible "rogues"), people get bashed down right away - just like you do. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 What did the beloved US do to support the regime along time ago. This war wasnt about regime change so dont flip that. How many dictators has America supported and then toppled. Was that all in the name of freedom and the cold war. The US govt is not all that good. This was about oil. If it wasnt then why arent the old oil contracts still valid as international law states. Saddam was no good I anm happy to see him go. The world is not run by the US if it is then that is true dictatorship. PS if France hadnt given the US weapons during the fight for indenpendence there wouldnt be an America as we know it. Link to post Share on other sites
kintaro 0 Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 Ocean, I agree with you to a point but what would you have done to solve the problem? Sanctions obviously didn't work. Saddam didn't appear to be on the verge of retirement or a change of way. Day to day life for an Iraqi not in the Bath party cirle was miserable. And what do you mean by saying that Americans call going and killing a lot of people is 'helping them'? What American said that? Not me!! The mission wasn't to "kill tons of people" and you know that. Link to post Share on other sites
kintaro 0 Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 Thank you France! Hhhhm, what would it be like today "as we know it" Fattwins? Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 Kintaro, when you wrote > What did your beloved Canada do to help the poor people of Iraq or any country that needed help for that matter??? I assumed that you were contrasting Canada with America, and that America was being helpful in Iraq. Kreck me if I'm wrong. As for something 'needing to be done', I agree that something needs to be done with ALL the Communist and dictatorial regimes, not just the one in Iraq. They're dangerous in their way (although most of them haven't gone rampaging around the world like the US and UK). But I don't think anything urgently needed doing in Iraq. For whatever reason, Saddam went down without using WMD. I believe that if the UN was a credible body, with the active participation of all the powerful nations, that the 'rogue' regimes and those roguish regimes not actually part of the 'Axis', could be moved in the right direction without killing large numbers of their people. It hasn't been tried yet, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work. Again, how many dead Iraqis are worth one dead Saddam? Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 What was the goal of this war it seems to change day by day. One day its WMD The next day its to rid someone or people who have never attacked them. My comment about Frnace was made to help Americans remember that they were there in the begining. This little dirty war has produced no Heros. The gaint crushed the ant. How many workers were killed. Link to post Share on other sites
Thunderbird2 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Exactly, they are calling it a complete success - but where the hell is the main man Saddam? Him not being caught and nobody knowing where on earth he is = complete success? Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 He's done taken them WMD and hid! It turns out that the bloke who pointed the special forces to the hero Lynch was heroic too. My, but the heroic brush is a fat one these days... Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Interesting timing OC - I watched an A&E special last night called "Saving Private Lynch" that went into detail on the whole operation. Politics aside, I think what the lawyer did was heroic. It takes a lot of guts to walk 10km out to "the enemy" and talk to them, knowing that its wide open desert so your own Iraqi soldiers/fedayeen could be watching you do it, and then do it twice more to bring "the enemy" maps of the hospital layout. Then he went back into the hospital with a hidden camera to videotape the guards and layout. If he had been searched, he would have been killed instantly. He risked his life, and the life of his family so that he could help a wounded American soldier being beaten in a hospital. It took great courage to do what he did, and I am one American who is very grateful for what he did. The US has granted him asylum to live in the US. If I'm ever back in the US and can find out where he lives, I would go a long way out of my way just to shake his hand. OC - I have to say I don't like your sarcasm about the "heroic" Lynch. You have no idea what she went through, so you are not qualified to label or "unlabel" her. If you have a problem with what Americans label her, then come out and say it along with why you have the problem. But don't belittle someone who volunteered to put her life on the line for something she believed in. Link to post Share on other sites
kintaro 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Ray, well said!! Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I have no idea what she went through, you're quite right. All I've been told is that she lost her way, was found hiding under a sheet, that she had a number of injuries from unspecified causes, and that she's a hero. I had always believed that heroism required an active component of courage or dedication, and I see none in her case. Surviving, and being reasonably brave, don't qualify in my book (because if that were the case, most of us would be heroes). There were some unconfirmed stories about her fighting like a wildcat and shooting till she cleared her guns, which while laudable in a soldier in some cases is not necessarily heroic either. My sarcasm springs from being asked to accept that she's a hero when all the evidence available suggests she's nothing of the sort, at least by the rather demanding standards of the last several thousand years. A brave girl maybe, but not a hero. And the doubts about the terms bandied about in this and many other cases lead me to be sceptical about all the cases. It sounds as though the lawyer did a noble thing though. Link to post Share on other sites
jared 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Quote: He risked his life, and the life of his family so that he could help..... Quote: The US has granted him asylum to live in the US Link to post Share on other sites
slimeypete 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Quote: He risked his life, and the life of his family so that he could help a wounded American soldier being beaten in a hospital. It took great courage to do what he did, and I am one American who is very grateful for what he did. The US has granted him asylum to live in the US. If I'm ever back in the US and can find out where he lives, I would go a long way out of my way just to shake his hand. As a Japanese chuugako textbook might say, "We are very different". Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 > But don't belittle someone who volunteered to put her life on the line for something she believed in. Personally, I don't rate soldiers who fight in unjust wars. Nor do I rate politicians who just go along with the war for their own reasons. For me, an act requiring courage in this case would be to challenge the justification for going to war. You don't see many heroic soldiers doing that, although there were a handful. What you're basically saying there Ray, is that any soldier is a hero, isn't it? Aren't you saying that nobody can call into question the heroism of soldiers? Link to post Share on other sites
big melons 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Thats what it sounds like to me. I'm new here, hi! Some really interesting topics on here! Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 It doesn't take courage to hold up a peace sign. Hell, just about anybody except for the paralyzed folks can do that. Not every soldier is a hero, but regardless of what side you're on, it takes a lot of courage to put yourself in the path of a bullet. But its not the soldiers themselves that call themselves heros. Its folks who believe the soldier is fighting for a just cause that call the soldier hero. For everyone that feels strongly that this war was unjust, here is your chance to display your displeasure. The Kitty Hawk battle group will be coming home soon. If the war was so unjust, please, by all means, head down to the gates of Yokosuka and carry signs that say "baby killer, War Monger etc". Please - lets see how much conviction you have...its easy to sit behind a computer and anonymously spout rhetoric - I'd like to know who has the courage to head to the gates and tell them face to face how you feel... Link to post Share on other sites
sanjo 2 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I don't call the soldier a hero. And I don't have the inclination or time to go and "protest" either. There you go. I must get back to my un-heroic computer work. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I doesnt take much courage to bomb a country into submission now does it. It doesnt take much courage to divde the plunder before the war began. It doesnt take much courage to blow up a little boy and all his limbs. How many people have to die Ray. Come on the US put this guy where his was to fight Iran. He last invaded a country more than 10 years ago. The country starved to death as result of saddam and the sanctions. I would reckon the US has at least 1 a million deaths on their hands from the last decade and you want us to call them heros. Give me a break. Still asking where are the WMDs that the US said they knew the exact location about. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 > it takes a lot of courage to put yourself in the path of a bullet. No it doesn't. I've done it quite by accident and nearly got my head shot off. Ray, I think you have contempt for people who work at computers, and don't consider how much more that contributes to the good of the world than a willingness to "put yourself in the path of a bullet". Also, you're wrong about the media or whatever calling soldiers heroes - the military is perfectly happy to call themselves that too, as was the case with Lynch. And look how you react when anybody suggests you're not... As for me being anonymous, I'm not when I take part in this discussion. Nor am I anonymous when I register my opinions with my elected representatives. Thanks, but I don't think going to wave insulting banners in the faces of the homecoming heroes will be very effective. Link to post Share on other sites
hide 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 About the appatrant contempt for people working with computers...yes, I wonder that as well. Why is everything you talk about concerning courage, heroism, etc? Thats nonsense. Why is courage for being military target so important for being human being? Nonsense I feel. Link to post Share on other sites
DumbStick 13 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I wonder why people join the military in the first place? What is it that makes people think "I want to join the military"? Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 It takes courage (or stupidity) to carry a rifle into battle. I can't see how anyone thinks they could do it themselves without being god aweful shit scared to the point of not actually being able to move. I am sure not all battles are like this and it helps to have the guns on your side. I recon teh Iraqi soldiers had the odd trembing hand. As for waving a banner at a returning US warship and calling anti-war opinions at full volume. Why would that take courage? It shouldn't require courage. What could possibly happen to a person if they went down there and was very vocal and had a big bright sign saying something like "USA killers, invaders" or "USA foriegn policy kills". Can someone tell me why that would require courage? I bet no one can tell me why one ounce of courage should be required. Link to post Share on other sites
kintaro 0 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Fattwins, your simplification of the war is getting annoying. US foreign policy is to "blow up little boys and all his limbs....bomb nations into submission..."?? Look, you come from a country that sits on its wealthy ass and does nothing for the world but wish to be France. Canada supported the sanctions too! It wasn't about starving kids to death. What are you a moron? Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts