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Fattwins, that post you quote was in response to the view that people are trespassing if they go to a resort without a pass. I don't believe they are. Would I be trespassing if I walked up the slopes of Wada Toge now that they're not running their lifts? - was the point.


As for giving up my lift pass because I rode where I wanted - no way. If they offered to return my money, I'd consider the deal, but otherwise, to hell with that. I don't think resorts provide particularly safe environments anyway, when the needs of all their customers are taken into consideration.

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Ice Eji-don't totally agree with you but have to respect you for speaking up in favour of playing it cool. Patrol hitting people is still wrong but I think you have a point in the fact that it is better to avoid the confrontation in the first place. I can't really understand why you went back to 47 after the first fracas either Barok-you did have another option there, namely Goryu. Actually I still find it bizzare that the 47 patrol would behave like that-they always seemed to be fairly chilled and reasonable to me as long as you are discreet. Avoiding that type of situation is the way to go.

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that is a depressing story...


good to hear you are still kickin' barok...

and as zwelgen mentioned, barok is not the type of dude to provoke what was described...I had the pleasure of riding with him as well, and the whole situation seems absurd...


unwaranted violence is not acceptable. PERIOD! Iceeji, what do you think could provoke such a reaction for teh ski patrol?? and if it was provoked, do you still believe it to be acceptable?? I hope not...



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danz and other, I don't know about situation real becasue I wasnot there. So I just read about it from one party.


Of course violence is no good whatever, I agree.


My English is not enough to fully discuss this I feel, and sometimes mistake or easy to understand.


Anyway, I hope all is ok.

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Good English or bad English, agree or disagreed, Japanese or gaijin.... I think it is good to have many different opinions.

Not so many Japanese people in this forum, iceeiji so please continue to stay with us.

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Yeah I wasnt picking at you either Eiji, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I think that everyone is influenced by things they see and hear and the people they meet. I know what the Japanese media is like and the editorials that I read in my Daily Yomiuri just irritate the hell out of me sometimes - there was one about a week and a half ago about how crime by foreigners in Japan is soaring, but what they didnt say was that as a percentage of the whole foreign population it is still a smaller percentage than crime by Japanese people. It just instigates paranoia and reactions like Eijis. Soooo unprofessional I think, and when youre out in the Inaka and walk into the ATM corner and the people in there get a bit edgy it Fs you off something wicked!


But it is interesting to hear other peoples opinions and Eiji dont worry about your English, Im sure we all understand you perfectly and value your input. \:\)

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Interesting you mention the Ed's in the daily Yomiuri.


I once wrote a letter of complaint to the Mainichi as I saw an article about a break in at an apartment block here in Tokyo. The article went on to say that the door had been picked and several times were stolen. Quite a normal bit of journalism until the last sentence which read "The police said "Many foreigners live in the building."


This last sentence just came across as...well I think you get the point.


The content of my complaint was quite obvious and the reply just shocked me. It was from the US editor and it was "this is what the Japanese article said."


I am no expert on journalism and I understand as a translator the freedom is not necessarily yours to correct such things, but come on! The Mainichi English version main audience are who? Foreigners!


You would think they would spare a thought for their audience before writing the translation!


Totally off topic gripe. Sorry.

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Hi all, I`ve been lurking for a while, and this thread has me curious enough to post.


Enderzero, you claim there were no ropes ducked during your run. However, everyone seems to be in agreeance that you guys did the wrong thing. How?


I would have thought that this is a pretty solid arguement for not getting your pass pulled. If patrol does not want you to go somewhere, its my personal opinion that its their duty to rope it off, not your duty to telepathically know where they don`t want you to go.


hem now


PS IceEiji, nice to see a Japanese person posting! And don`t feel that people are "having a go" at you - you may have realised that us gaijins can be very opinionated. That doesn`t mean we don`t like having people around with different ideas. So keep posting!

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I'm a little suprised that so many people think Barok should take legal action. Although I think it would be completely in the right, it just sounds like such a hassle all for little gain. I mean, we have talked about it a lot...but I really think that there is nothing all that positive that could come out of it. It's not about being righteous, we took care of that at the mountain.


There were no ropes at all. I guess you are supposed to be telepathic. I am baffled. Whatever though because it is just a get out of jail free card if you do get nabbed. Just be cool, respectful and apologetic.


One of the guys mentioned something about taking away my pass for 10 days, but the other cooler guy shut him down (I admitted to having a pass). This may be a standard punishment for someone that has a seasons pass.


Thanks for all the encouragement. It was just a crazy experience, not one to freak out about...of course I wasn't the one that got beat up.


BTW Check the original message at the top of the thread for the pic (now that my server is up - geeze why would I lie).

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When patrol at Nozawa hassled us the other day, the old fart said not to go in the trees, even where there were no ropes. As there are trees all over the place at Nozawa, even in the middle of some runs, it does take some figuring out. Maybe they should say "Don't go anywhere where you couldn't drive a groomer."


ender, barok, are you likely to be at Nozzle on Friday? I'd like to ride with you and shoot the breeze a little.

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I never carry a map of a mountain that I know so if they ask I play dumb. Ive been caught a lot and I found the best aproach is to just say sorry and that I wont ride there again. Guy at Goryu caucht me airing huge at this dam kicker under the chair. He told me "not to ride there" I said "ok, and that I needed to catch the gondola it went off without a hitch".

Ocean peace just dont encourage people too much to do things that could endanger them or others.

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I never carry a map of a mountain that I know so if they ask I play dumb. Ive been caught a lot and I found the best aproach is to just say sorry and that I wont ride there again. Guy at Goryu caucht me airing huge at this dam kicker under the chair. He told me "not to ride there" I said "ok, and that I needed to catch the gondola it went off without a hitch".

Ocean peace just dont encourage people too much to do things that could endanger them or others.

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Two weeks ago I boarded at Mt. Brighton here in Michigan...it is a tiny row of hills covered with man-made snow (I call it "ice").


The back of one of the hills is about 45 degrees and maybe 30 meters long. It is usually closed, but the resort does put man-made snow on it and uses it for some kind of racing once or twice a month.


I went down it 2-3 times, and was strapping in to go down again when two teenage skiers came up and peered over the edge. I could hear them talking:


"I'll go down if you do!"


"Uh...it looks really icy... Let's not do it, OK?"




The kids were surprised and so was I. One of them replied "Wait, we didn't do anything wrong...we haven't even gone down here..."




This patroller was a sour petty old man, reminded me of some of the teachers I had in jr. high school.


"Uh...sir, we ski here all the time, we have season passes, you can ask them down at the lodge they know us...we haven't done anything wrong..."




"But sir, wait, we never went down here! You can't do this!"


At that point I chimed in. "Hey, these kids haven't gone down this hill. I did it four times already, but they never did."


The patroller's eyes bugged out.




I considered shoving this a**hole down the 45-degree grade. I considered hucking off the lip and riding it right under his nose to see whether he would keep harassing those poor kids, or follow me.


One of the kids said "See? We never went down this hill. You can't take our passes!!"


Things were going badly for the patroller. He was close to exploding with rage. You could see the wheels turning in his head.




"What--? We never cut in line...what are you talking about?"


At any day at Mt. Brighton, the lift line is maybe 3 people long. To cut in line, you'd have to jump over a fence and shove people aside right in the loading area.




Now, I'll be the first to admit that I have a real problem with puffed-up authority figures and uniform-wearing autocrats. Also, having been "framed" a few times as a kid, where teachers, cops and parents believed a lying adult instead of me, I have a seething rage that boils over in situations like this.


I could feel myself begin to lose it.


However, as a 39-year-old and a member of the California State Bar, I kept my cool as best I could. I unstrapped and walked over to stand between the patroller and the kids.


"Look, I think you made a great point. This ice wall is dangerous and people should stay off it. I think these guys know that now, too, right guys?"


"Uh...yeah, whatever. But we didn't go down it!"


The patroller said to me "YOU, SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN UNTIL I GET DONE WITH THESE KIDS. I'M DEALING WITH YOU LATER!!" As he said this, he rapped his ski pole on my leg and made as if to shove me aside.


It seemed that words had no effect on him. He had totally lost it... I wasn't really quite sure where this was going. I wished there were TV cameras around to prove to the world that this guy was totally abusing his authority...then I remembered my digital camera, tucked into a zippered pocket. The batteries had long since died in the -12 degree cold, but the only other person who knew that was my sister, and she was in the lodge drinking tequila shots.


I threw off my gloves, pulled out the camera, and pretended to take pictures of this patrol prick. A shot of his face, his name badge, him standing there talking to the kids...I kept on shooting, all the while saying "You've screwed up now, buddy! You are totally in the wrong here, and it's three witnesses against one! You'll never patrol again here, and frankly you shouldn't patrol anywhere. You really are a nasty piece of work! Go on, keep going! I'm taking this down to the resort office and filing a complaint..."


This seemed to work, and after a few seconds he lightened up and resorted to schoomarmish warnings.




Eventually he skied away, shouting warnings over his shoulder.


I went down to the lodge and talked to management, but they acted like I was some kind of crazed liar.


When I got home I wrote a letter on my "attorney-at-law" stationery and sent it in, but I doubt anything will come of it.


The reason I post this long story is, I can see how tempers get frayed on the slopes. I've seen violent and irrational and lying patrollers myself.


And, I was ready to punch this guy in the face.


If there is any moral to this post, it is avoid authority figures on the slopes, and stay out of trouble. Once trouble starts rolling, it is impossible to steer it.

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My 2c worth – forget the nationality stereotyping Dudes, people are people and what is ethically wrong in one country is ethically wrong in others. No nationality is better than any other.


From the story provided thus far, both parties are in the ‘wrong’. However, here is the kick:


Foreigners should be EXTRA aware of local rules – if going out of bounds in Japan pi**es off the local authorities, DON’T DO IT (DUH!!) Or, at least ask what their rules/attitudes are before you ride on their slopes. (Something you should do before riding anywhere anyway - like checking the weather, lift operations, avalanche warnings, etc!) cool.gif


Japan needs to get on board with the international resort community and adopt similar rules – slope grading system (green, blue, black, etc), international signposting (English not necessary), the pros and cons of out of bounds skiing, roping off areas, etc. cool.gif


Having skied in several countries, it seems continuity is the major factor. Like-minded people, regardless of nationality (i.e. riders) tend to have generally the same likes/dislikes – slushy snow sucks – but continuity of resort operations differs significantly. \:\(


If we’ve got an internationally accepted form of training for ski patrollers, international guidelines for competitions, recognised lift systems and first aid, why not resorts? confused.gif


Adopting such international systems will not affect local traditions, or spoil the intrinsic cultural experiences / values.


Irrational and non-standard practices only discourage use (tourism) – go-it-alone attitudes always fail miserably. \:\(


If the story is legitimate, and Barok feels further action is needed, he should confront the resort management with a group of witnesses and ask for a formal written apology from the offending patrollers. He may like to point out that out-of-bound areas need to be clearly marked with internationally identifiable signage. (Some people can’t read!) cool.gif


This should be enough to clear the air and ensure that such action is not considered appropriate.


Well, that’s more than 2c worth .....


Life’s like that. \:D



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I just think it`s funny that I posted this big long story, a few days after my friend posted the same story, complete with pictures, and some people`s first reaction is. . .


*i can`t believe japanese ski patrollers would do something like this*


so what you have no trouble believing the part of my story where I say that I go off-course, and that I knowingly broke the rules doing so, but not the part about the ski-patrollers` overreaction ? now I know the story sounds crazy, but the best stories usually do sound crazy. and what would my motivation be for telling a big long lie like that ? and yeah i have several witnesses to the whole incident, including one patroller who said that his co-workers actions were wrong.


so to state clearly

1) i was in the wrong for going off-course.

2) the tackling i received after i refused to co-operate was the patroller`s bad move, and when he hit me after the other patrollers arrived was ridiculous

3) i was again in the wrong for coming back that day.

4) the 3 on 1 melee after they spotted me was totally unacceptable. and I have a big problem with anyone who says it wasn`t

5) i talked about what happened with patrol, and both parties agreed that they were partially at fault. that is why no furthur action was taken against me, or Hakuba 47.

6) off-course riding, and rule-breaking does not warrant assault.


i had considered the whole thing resolved, but I heard this same kinda thing happened to an american guy recently. complete with the fighting. I think that 47 patrol still hasn`t learned their lesson, and as wrong as it might be, people at 47, and it is not just foreigners, by the way, i see PLENTY of Japanese, of all levels of ability riding and skiing off-course, all the time, are not going to stop riding off-course, so it seems that someone should go after a solution. (sorry, run-on sentence, multiple clauses, etc.)


i think the problem is big enough for both parties to try to find a balance. for now, I have decieded to talk to people about what has happened, and what seems to be developing into a very negative pattern.


and SubZero, weather was fine, and the patrollers themselves admitted no avalanche danger. but I do agree with you that all people should at least consider the rules. I often considered the rules, but I didn`t like the rules, so I broke `em, and yes it created an interesting problem, but I also think that the solution needs to be further explored.


and finally, i hope that the nature of my posts indicates that I am not sue-happy - I think it would not be the right or best solution.



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Next time carry a stun gun Barok, now that would be funny. (Of course joking)


That area has never been roped off and only has signs at the top. The guys who know the area better than us, know not to stop and just rip down and huck it.


I will email you with a good place to hit.

Goryus pipe should open soon and their patrolers arent conected to 47's so much.


Peace see ya in a couple of weeks.

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Originally posted by barok:

i had considered the whole thing resolved, but I heard this same kinda thing happened to an american guy recently. complete with the fighting. I think that 47 patrol still hasn`t learned their lesson, and as wrong as it might
This is very disheartening to hear... I probably won't be taking any friends to 47, or any other Hakuba resort this year or the next. I actually was looking forward to checking out Happone and 47, but figure I'm better off spending my money at places with 'reasonable' off-piste policies (eg Niseko, Hakkoda, Kagura, etc).

I wonder how many other people feel the same way... and how much money 47 is going to lose.
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