SnowJapan.Com#3 0 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 A new Ocean's View feature, "Concerning the Patrol", has been put online. This subject has been hotly debated on the Forums over the last few weeks. In his regular column, Ocean11 presents his views of the situation. Whether you agree or disagree with what has to be said, please keep the conversation friendly and constructive. http://www.snowjapan.com/e/features/oceans-view-11.html I’d like to make some observations about Patrol and their role at the resorts I visit. Patrol seem to loom rather large, but what little I’ve seen of them doesn’t impress me. An encounter with Patrol has thrown the issue into sharp perspective for me, along with the recent incident in which an SJ Member was roughed up by patrol for riding off the course and for daring to come back having been told to leave. http://www.snowjapan.com/e/features/oceans-view-11.html Please note that the views expressed in any Features on Snow Japan are not necessarily those of Snow Japan. Discuss it here.... Link to post Share on other sites
DeepProbe 0 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Wow, there's a lot of words there Nice one. Link to post Share on other sites
barok 0 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 yeah, i like the feature, and i have gotta admit, that after all is said and done, the whole issue of safety seems largely ignored, and that is what is most puzzling. Half the time I see patrol, they are puttering with a snowblower, or making stupid sharp bouncy turns (do all patrollers ski the same?), waiting like traffic cops to bust people (everyone's favorite topic), or just dinking around with something on the sides of the courses (not ropes or fences), and for the life of me, I can't determine what it is that they are doing, and I wonder "what is going on, what are you doing here when there are so many OBIOUS safety risks." Why don't you close that tabletop with the rutted landing that has caused the last 10 people to go off it to break themselves, or how 'bout telling the park boys to sculpt that rail runout, so that people aren't eating the course when they step off, and if you are so intent on marking stuff, then mark the intersection between trails and who has the right of way, so you don't have people constantly banging into each other on your overcrowded slopes. but here i am asking nobody, so I think the next time I run into a patroller, I'm going to ask. Link to post Share on other sites
danz 0 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 oboy...here we go again... I hope this thread doesn't turn into a re-write of some of the others... the article was well written...ocean sure has a way with words...but it really was just a recap of the recent threads, with an obvious bias towards one of the sides... what I really would like to see in this type of article is the "official" stance by resorts and patrollers on their duties and responsibilities...it seems sj has enough clout to maybe create this type of an interview...us forum members could even post questions we would liked asked...like 1)what sort of training to patrol go through to get the job 2) do you know what avalanche blasting is? 3) what constitutes a "safe" course 4) what constitutes a "dangerous" course...etc... ocean11 is always a stickler for the facts, so why not go after them? we all have our opinions on what is and what should be based on what we see on the ground...and they are usually sound and valid, but I would like to hear what the other side is thinking, and not just our speculations... danz Link to post Share on other sites
cheeseman 1 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 You forgot to mention, Mr Ocean, that introducing some cheese related activities events might do a world of good for resorts. The punters will flock to cheese-friendly resorts, and will be happy that the resorts are providing the goods. The resorts will benefit from higher sales and goodwill. Everyone wins. And the patrol and the skiers and snowboarders can all get along, nibble on their snacks together and enjoy their time together. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Well now, if they came around with trays of cheddar and pineapple on sticks, and stilton on crackers, I would have some nicer things to say about them, no doubt about it. Link to post Share on other sites
cheeseman 1 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 There you go - you like them better already. Apart from being a deliciously, nutritious foodstuff that is fun for all the family - and friends too - cheese is a great healer. Link to post Share on other sites
zwelgen 0 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 I liked the article, esp the bit about how hazards arent always marked, but I have to disagree with you that if there were more patrolers on boards it might lessen the agro. Im a skier and I seem to spend 95% of my time riding with boarders. I dont feel any agro towards them and in fact dont even think about it much (except for smirking to myself with the front of their boards are burried in the pow and I just lift my skis up). I honestly dont think that the fact that patrolers are on skis makes them any less inclined to boarders and Im guessing that a fair portion of them board on their days off too. just my opinion though. I think Im going to have to track someone down and have a chat... Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Maybe not. It would be interesting to know what you learn from your chat. The news item about Happo was interesting in that they didn't mention skiers going off-piste at all. Of course, it's not that they don't, even Japanese skiers, because I've been in the trees with Japanese skiers. It was all 'sunoboodo' this, 'sunoboodaa' that. Maybe it's the bias of the reporters and newscasters, or maybe they picked it up from the patrol at Happo. But it really p!ssed me off! Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Happo has 2 no go places. 1 is under the pair second from the top. Great little rock area but it funnels down the side of mountain, if it slides you will slide away from the resort. 2 is the spot you can see riders left from the top of the Gondola. Again if it was controled it could be opened, maybe... Fact is it is not controled and its right in front of the patrol office. They get a great view of you riding down. Most other areas are usally ok I think. Again they dont tell you what is really ok or not. I know its boring but if your in the sport for the long haul its a good topic. The stuff you can ride Out of bounds, is much better than in bounds. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I must admit O11, I was suprised that you said that reading up on av stuff is boring. Personally I really enjoy all things weather, geography, swell direction (whoops, wrong sport). I seem to have a natural interest in these things as it fills some gaps in the body of knowledge relating to things that you enjoy. Kind of like a wine buff also enjoying info about grape farming. You probably don't need it to enjoy or even buy wine, but it is part of the fun. anyway, as others have said, this was a well written piece. In my opinion your best so far. You also have good arguments/logic. Besides Hakkoda, I amm yet to duck a rope. So far skill level has ruled it out, I am 99% on my own or I dont know whether it would be a good un or not. Most ducks available lead into trees and I can seldom read the terrain further down hill. If I were with a crew that knew the ropes (literally), I would join the duck. Are the rules jack? I have not been around this sport long, but the management plan that the patrol uses seems very wrong. But that could apply to man 'issue' management plans employed in Japan. For example, Japan has a terrible car fatality record. Idiot solution - set the speed limit to 80km/hr. Result - people break the idiot rule and appear all but ignored by the police. Link to post Share on other sites
scouser 4 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I find that kind of stuff boring too, like 011. Not interested in grapes either really. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 It's a question of priorities and having the time for it. If I had 30 days of riding behind me, I might well be hankering for fields anew, with the responsibility that entails, but as I only have 6 days so far, spending time at the snow digging holes is not a high priority. I concede that it may well be quite interesting and not boring, depending on how much time you have for these things. Thanks for the comments. This article went through a number of versions and received more than the usual editorial imput, so it's a bit more polished and thoughtful. Cheers! Link to post Share on other sites
jared 0 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I find it hard to relate to most of what you are saying. None of my dealing with patrol have been as you described. even when were doing things we "shouldent be" all we got was a "course closed, OK?", no mention of pass pulling or anything negative. I built a large kicker in the middle of an ungroomed course near the gondolla on a day when the wind kept the lifts from opening, I was left alone untill the lifts opened when I was told to break it down - politely with a reason - after a little negotiation I was allowed to hit the jump for an hour or two as long as I didnt let any one elece go over it. (he even told me where patrol considerd a suilable place to go and build jumps) I thought that this fairly relaxed attitude might change since an avalanche seriously injured a snowboarder a couple of weeks ago and it was put all over the local news, but it doesnt seem to have. To me the policy seems to be do what you like and well pick up the pieces. If we see you breaking the rules we will tell you not to, but if you continue to break the rules its you who ends up in the hellicopter going to hospital and it's your own stupid fult. It just takes a bit to get used to the fact that 10 - 15 metres from the course is BC and can and will slide. Link to post Share on other sites
frannyo 2 Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Nice article, some really good points in there. It would be so good to get an interview with "the other side" and hear what they have to say too. Link to post Share on other sites
gti 0 Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 I wanted to comment in response to Ocean's column, having patrolled (though only a couple of yrs), back in the States, now more than 10yrs ago, my first yr as a Candidate, in training, then as a Basic National (volunteer) Ski Patroller at a resort in the Tahoe region of northern CA. Patrol in America are there to promote and emphasize skier / boarder safety and awareness, and there's an element of enforcement, when necessary, where if someone is endangering others/his and/or herself, it is the responsibility of patrol to promote, enlighten, or in worst case enforce the aspect of safety to such individuals. Such instances though are few and far between. All countries, regions and even resorts, have their own patrol regulations and policies they follow, even w/in a patrol organization, but there is, at least in the States, a governing body, under which all guidelines, policies, etc, are outlined and followed. In my case, as a volunteer patroller, the NSP was the governing body, though all patrols, at each ski area, have their own uniqueness about them, due in part to a combination of the patrol director, area managment, terrain of the mountain itself, etc. With the above as background, the only actual time I've had any first-hand encounters w/ patrol here in Japan was when a young patroller was very friendly and gladly stopped and took our picture when asked, so I've had nothing but (one) positive experience w/ patrol.. I'll comment on a few patrol-related items I've noticed though, as well, as follows. Others have noted questions relating to the level and form of training and qualifications needed to patrol here in Japan. I've noticed little things where certain practices / procedures appear to either be thought of, or are probably practiced, differently, over here. Overall, I'm curious as to what governing body patrols here are under, and what guidelines, policies, procedures are in place as things seem to be contrary to what would be expected, though this point too, I'm relating from a Stateside view on patrol. Two examples...One is where a major purpose of patrol is to be able to come to the aid of any skier or boarder, injured or in need of any help as quickly as possible, anywhere on the mountain. You'll usually find patrol stations located at the tops of mountains/peaks, ridges, lifts (at North American resorts), enabling immediate response to any injury or anyone needing any form of assistance, anywhere on the mountain. It's easier to ski down, than to have to lug anything up, then descend, etc....I've noticed looking on ski maps here of the tendency of there NOT being any patrol stations located at the tops of peaks, etc..is this due to some clause in ski area design policy, or some patrol guideline which might be in effect?? Another example, as a 'national,' at the area I was at, we worked closely w/ the pros, doing things the skiing public normally doesn't or wouldn't see, before and after each ski day, all keyed towards enhancing the safety of the area for the skiing public. Wherever there may be thin spots of snow, in particular, early-season, we'd be out (during morning setup) clearing rocks from such runs, or marking areas off, for everyone's safety. The boulders that were dumped below a landing in Ocean's notes would be UNTHINKABLE at resorts in north America..There is genuine concern for even the remotest possibility of any injury to anyone (due to any aspect of a resort's terrain/facilities, in particular), for ski area managment in adddition to patrol, as there's an underlying phobia of lawsuits of sorts that pervades (for ski area management in particular.) At the very least, as Ocean suggested, such obstacles, would be marked off, well in advance...to further illustrate, any time a snow rider is cared for, no matter how minor the attendance may be, a (patrol) incident report is filed, w/ an emphasis on documenting details (partly, but also in the event such documentation would ever be needed in court somewhere). Just two examples really that came to mind. I was real surprised, hearing of the boulders at the blind landing in Ocean's column. Also, on the story of the one reader who was literally assaulted!?? by patrol, which doesn't make any sense. And so I think Ocean, relating his and others' experiences w/ patrol here in Japan, has provided his own, unique frame of reference, and I enjoyed reading his thoughts as always, but generalizing 'patrol' in the way they're portrayed, does in no way mean patrols everywhere are the same, or even remotely similar. I'm interested in hearing more on patrol practices and experiences w/ patrol - from both sides - both good and bad, any insight at all really, from others who'd like to share their knowledge / experience on this board. Questions and comments are also welcome. I'll try and respond the best I can, but keep in mind, it's been over 10 yrs since my certification/licensing has lapsed (be easy on the questionning, please ) As the NSP in the States as an organization are constantly striving to improve and upgrade their policies, curricula, etc. I'm sure, things are probably a lot different than they were when I was patrol. I just wanted to relate my thoughts on the issue and 'll add too that all the people I've ever met thru patrol have been some of the best people anybody would ever want to meet... There've been a couple recent threads on proudest and worst moments, I've a whole list of proudest/best moments on snow - small and large - w/ my patrol yrs having provided some of the best, most memorable ski seasons I've had to date. Just my two cents worth. Cheers to all! gti Link to post Share on other sites
rajeem 0 Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 That was an interesting post, gti. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 gti, that was indeed interesting. I'll keep my eyes open to see if patrol has bases at the top, but from what I can recollect they are often at the bottom or in the middle somewhere. jared, I'm glad your experiences with patrol have been good. At least they seem to be polite which is a good start, and prepared to negotiate. (It does occur to me to ask if they would be equally polite to a boarder...) But are they doing enough to ensure riders' safety too? Link to post Share on other sites
sunrise 0 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 At Rusutsu there are 3 mountains. On the top of Isola there is a patrol station. I didn't notice one on East Mountain (though I've seen patrol coming uphill on snowmobiles from there while passing thru) and I don't think there's one on top of West Mountain (the smaller mountain in closer range to the resort itself), though it"s possible there may have been one at the top of the West Mountain Gondola. There's a station at the bottom though. Link to post Share on other sites
Wizz 11 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Quote: It does occur to me to ask if they would be equally polite to a boarder... Do you really question that Ocean11? I can't see it myself... Link to post Share on other sites
enderzero 0 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 There is a patrol station that usually has someone in it a short hike up form the gondola midstation at Nozawa. Link to post Share on other sites
oo 1 Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 I think theres a base at the top of Kagura is I'm not mistaken. Link to post Share on other sites
Undies 0 Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 It's easy to extrapolate a single bad or good experience with a ski patrol into a blanket, nationwide attitude. But in general it's hard not to agree with Ocean. My summary of patrols here would be panicky, invisible, killjoy cowboys on snowmobiles, but that's because I've been thrown on the back of a snow mobile with a broken knee and dumped in the lobby of a hotel, I've seen the same treatment given to a buddy with a fractured clavicle, and I've seen one of the young pups with cool glasses clean out a family of three taking off blind on a green run at 60k on a skidoo. All at different resorts. But a couple of bad times I've had are neither here nor there. To me the battle in Japan is the battle against sterility. The terrain here is boring, and the patrol, directed by management, keeps it that way. Learn how to do it, take a buddy and your brain, and head back country for a much better time. Link to post Share on other sites
enderzero 0 Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 So where do you ride undies? Link to post Share on other sites
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