spook 0 Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 both. lets comparing Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 wouldn't say exactly incase I laughed too loudly. Around 40mil mark. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 depends on the size. An old condo say 1dk 5mill A new house 125000 yen to 250000 yen per meter squared after you buy the land, 250000 being high-end. As most houses in Hakuba arent built by the lifts the prices havent risen that much. The house market is still in line with 3 to 4 years ago. The used market is playing catch up, as the Japanese have realized that their is value in their used pensions and houses. Id say a 25% increase or more in prices from last season in used. I have been told that after doing my reforms I could get 3 times what I paid for mine. I got in at almost rock bottom though I believe. That was 3 seasons ago, after Niseko's big coming out year with Hanazono being bought. Hakuba had a boom back in the 80s, at that time condos etc went up and things got rubber stamped and etc. Because of that Hakuba came up with a rule that wont let you sub-divide property ie. make anymore condos/apartments and sell the indivdual units. You can make them but you must be the sole owner and there is even more complications involved. That said a new one just got built but again it is only for rent, is small in total area and is not sub-divided. Also Hakuba as a whole has 70000 beds which people dont get. Ill let GN tell you how many Niseko has but I have heard 5000plus in Hirafu. (not meant to compare but to show how different the markets are) This will also factor into where the property market may or may not rise within Hakuba itself. The best thing to do in Hakuba is buy where you want to be, based on your own reasons. Do you want a view? Do you want to get to town easy? Are you just skiing? Do you want to be at the lake quick? Do you want to hedge a bet on a lift going somewhere? Which resort do you prefer? Do you want to clear more or less snow? Do you want more land or less land? Want about biking? What about where to shop and getting from your place? Hope that helps. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Yeah Hirafu is out of range of even the above average punter these days. For new apartments there would not be much for under 40 mill yen. No such thing as a bargain around here anymore. Those who aren't millionaires are buying in Higashiyama or Annupuri or even down in Kutchan. Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 On the whole, the cost of building new is going up. The cost of materials is rising in line with the cost of oil. Mortgage tax relief is also being phased out, if you need a loan. It used to be very high. If you build anywhere cold in Japan, I'd build in a sunny spot. It makes a massive difference. Link to post Share on other sites
BagOfCrisps 24 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Are you building Mr Wiggles? Quote: Do you want to hedge a bet on a lift going somewhere? Are there rumours of more lifts? Oh so many questions. Answers please. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Happo has a huge plan in place that has been approved. problem is they need money to do it and they wont sell. Dont expect anything for years is my bet. Link to post Share on other sites
Hokkaidough 4 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Quote: Happo has a huge plan in place that has been approved. Able to share if you know? Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 shrewed move. 40,000,000 for the chalet rent it out for say 25 nights a month at $1000 per night season is 4 months long at best, so that's 100 nights. Rental income $100,000, take off management fees and commish from agents $20,000 Returns = 80,000 x 110 / 40,000,000 = 22% And then you have the other 200 odd days to play with also. simplified for illustration purposes. Investors are adviced that stocks may go down as well as up. Seek professional guidance from a trusted financial advisor. Link to post Share on other sites
stemik 14 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 hahaha - so easy on paper Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Is $1000 a night what HK people pay for private accom (in the big N)? Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 for the whole chalet, yes Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 For that rate, I'll move out for winter.... Link to post Share on other sites
stemik 14 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 how many people can the chalet hold? Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Personally love Niseko, but my guess is that Hakuba is next. As the prices become top heavy in Niseko the average punter is not able to get in - so will be looking elsewhere....my bet - Hakuba! Buying in now would see you getting in before the prices go stupid - not a bad move. Only prob's for us international investors is we need the ready cash in the bank in it's entirity as our local banks don't like to lend money based on international property, and the international banks wont lend to us because our income and assets are not in thier country... A few in Niseko are beginning to offer pre-negotiated set ups to allow those of us who do not have liquid assets to buy in ... now if that can be set up in Hakuba - WATCH IT BOOM! Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Mamabear Hakuba did about the same number of overseas vistors last season. The difference is in size and scale. Hakuba would prefer to control the next wave a bit better than the last time it boomed and blew up. The apartments wont be sold here right now and buying a house next to the lifts is very hard. Thursday are you saying 1000 a night over the whole season? Is this true or the sales pitch? Jan to Feb is always busy but it starts to die after that. 110 days are you really sure? Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 There are many 3 and 4 bedroom apartment/houses in Hirafu going for in excess of Y100,000 per night now. Next season there will be quite a number of properties going for Y140,000+ per night in peak. Peak season varies from company to company but generally the highest prices are from around xmas to end of Feb. How long peak carries into Feb generally has to do with when Chinese New Year occurs. The week of Chinese New Year is probably one of the busiest weeks at the resort. The thing is it's a supply and demand market. Currently the supply is barely keeping up with the demand for peak season accom. Every apartment that is booked probably then has 5 or 6 other groups turned away for the same dates. So property managers can continue to raise the prices as there is no shortage of people who can afford it. There are just so many customers coming now with so much money that cost barely comes into consideration. They just want the most luxurious accom and best services. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 I get that but I dont get how he came up with 100 plus nights at 1000 bucks? Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Originally Posted By: Fattwins Mamabear Hakuba did about the same number of overseas vistors last season. The difference is in size and scale. Hakuba would prefer to control the next wave a bit better than the last time it boomed and blew up. The apartments wont be sold here right now and buying a house next to the lifts is very hard. I get that FT - but as you say size and scale...Hakuba could be doing a LOT more... Yes the proximity to the lifts is one issue, probably common in more Alpine scenario's, but there is still a lot on offer at prices that are way below the Niseko asking price. Control is a good thing - planning is a good thing...but you guys do not really want to miss the opportunity to grab a market, those opportunities are not always around. And while a big influx of foreigners might not be everyone's cup of tea - if they keep the wheels of industry turning and create jobs ...it is all good. Originally Posted By: Fattwins Thursday are you saying 1000 a night over the whole season? Is this true or the sales pitch? Jan to Feb is always busy but it starts to die after that. 110 days are you really sure? 110 days is more than 3 months - that is like rental for 4 months with change over days. December is 'iffy' - sometimes unreal - but you would be cautious to say LATE December to begin....then sure April is fun...but the village is shutting down, the Gondola is only running on the weekends and the per night prices on accomodation has plummeted. So I would think that 110 days is optomistic. But I do believe there is a fairly decent summer rental opportunity (not at crazy prices, but still...) with the J-crowd coming for a "Western" experience within the security of Japan, and the mountain bike/white water rafting set. At least for premium properties... Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Fatts, This is what my friend paid for. It is real and in my face. The bookings are just stoooooopid. I don't like it one bit cos it is putting me into difficulties. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Mamabear, There is a summer, autumn season in Niseko, but that is for the Japanese nature lovers who hike and canoe and fish and of course golf. For the summer, I fly drive to Furano and see all the splendid colours Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Prices are in line with what the local market can afford. Hakuba depends on the local market as it has 70000 beds. There are places you can rent for 50000yen or more per night. There are also places that are top notch Hotels if thats what you want. Hakuba has seen the boom bust in the worst way possible. As for missing something I dont understand what we are missing. 5 to 10 new hotels or B and Bs. Maybe 50 new houses all family size units. The only thing Hakuba isnt making is the Condos. If you are in construction there are plenty of jobs to be had as well. Japanese wanting the western experience is debatable within Japan. The mountain biking within 2 to 4 hours of Tokyo is pretty full on. Rafting is much like minakami it peaks with the snow melt and doesnt get typhoons to re-fill the water. Great cold water and I would think cold water but crap warm water. The best rafting in Japan is in Kansai and shikoku. I was a big Kayaker before I moved away from all my yaking mates. Hakuba is the same great melt then utter crap unless it rains. Then you have to time it right with about a 10 hour window to hit good but safeish water. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 So thursday he has booked out 100 days from mid dec to the end of march is what you are saying? If that is the case it is a good investment. The condos in Canada dont make that much. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Originally Posted By: Fattwins Hakuba has seen the boom bust in the worst way possible. As for missing something I dont understand what we are missing. 5 to 10 new hotels or B and Bs. Maybe 50 new houses all family size units. The only thing Hakuba isnt making is the Condos. If you are in construction there are plenty of jobs to be had as well. Hey I am not on the front line here - you guys are... just calling from my limited perspective. And it IS limited. Hubby and I got hit by the Aussie Tax man who gobbled up our nest egg ear marked for buying in to Niseko - we have some funds - but not enough for there ... and we have looked at Hakuba(purely because of how much you love it I might add FT!!). Prices were much more managable... The crazy building/buying frenzy in Niseko makes my jaw hit the floor - we have friends in the process right now - it is unbelievable. I just didn't see the same push in Hakuba (website wise) - the one website I did come across selling land and development actually had advice to NOT buy for an investment. That struck me as odd.. But I AM keen to hear more. With kids speaking Japanese, and wanting to spend time in Japan living, working and boarding ... a parent has to think ahead - ya know.. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Mamabear, You have got to the root of the situation. People with money to play with are in Niseko 'cos they know about it and their friends and their firends and their frineds and their friends know about it. Well done marketing!! So long as there is snow in Japan, it will not end. And now to Moiwa. Link to post Share on other sites
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