Abortion

[Ocean11 0]

OK, we're getting deep in it here. I'll try to make a cogent statement...

 

Firstly, I'm pro-choice. I believe you have a lot of choices before a woman gets pregnant. You can choose abstention if you're up to it, contraception if you're not, and sterilization if contraception is beyond you. None of these choices are that awful, and all are morally neutral whereas abortion isn't. There is another choice too -- you can choose to screw about and to take accept the consequences, for a woman by bearing the child, for a man by paying for it and looking after it. Speaking from experience, I can honestly say that this isn't an awful choice to make either.

 

As for the moral aspect, I believe that killing in self-defense is acceptable, although there are grey areas. I'm would extend the concept of self defense to a woman who is endangered by her unborn child -- her life is more valuable.

 

As for women who have abortions and feel relief, I have to say that doesn't prove the rightness of it.

 

As for the sperm argument, sperm may be very genki but it's not viable in the long term without further modification, whereas a child is. I don't believe that the child 'comes alive' at some point that is convenient for abortion advocates.

 

Victims of rape or incest are probably not a very significant proportion of abortion candidates. I don't know how many women actually get pregnant from rape. I don't quite see why not wanting to abort children conceived in less than ideal circumstances and wanting to support these victims emotionally and financially is 'cold' though.

 

I don't think that the coat-hanger in the back alley scenario is particularly likely anymore. Better education and better welfare systems, of which I also happen to be in favour, would go a long way to preventing that.

 

Also, I'm very suspicious of the motives of men who argue the toss from 'the woman's perspective' on this issue. I suspect that you simply want to keep the option open for yourself without having to accept that you're a hypocrite, should the need ever arise. Furthermore, by calling it a woman's choice and completely surrendering your half of the child to the mercy of a woman who may be in panic, you're actually putting all the responsibility for the killing on her.

 

Finally, a vignette from real life; an older Japanese man has a relationship with a younger Japanese woman. She gets pregnant, although she is well aware of how these things happen. She decides to have an abortion and end the relationship, in spite of the fact that the man has literally prostrated himself at her feet in the Japanese manner, and begged that his child be spared and that they bring it up together, for better or worse. I don't know of any true stories of poor put-upon girls being forced into abortions that I can share with you. But maybe you know of your own...

[barok 0]

I agree that feeling relief from abortion is not an argument for the rightness of it. Just an observation.

 

I wasn`t trying to argue the women`s perspective, if you were suggesting that I was, merely making a guess based on a few stories that I have heard from Japanese women who have told me about what happened to them

 

So here`s a story to match yours: A Junior High school girl is raped by a Japanese college student. She has never had sex before, and lacks the basic knowlege of what to do after the rape. She doesn`t tell her parents or the police, and tries to deal with the pain by herself. She gets pregnant from the rape, and feels she has no choice but to hide her pregnancy from her parents, her friends, as she is scared and doesn`t feel that anyone would understand. She soon has an abortion. The whole thing sounds "less than ideal" if not horrible to me. There is a violent crime here, as well as a few bad decisions, but for the girl, the abortion was the best solution to a problem that I can`t comprehend having happen to me.

 

This kind of thing might not be the majority, but it does exist.

[mikazooki 0]

i agree with some points made already.

 

to have an even discussion, there must be some agreement regarding being alive and on the value of life. given that this is not an easily achieved situation, we must accept that there will be ongoing disagreement.

 

for my part... a foetus does not represent fully fledged life. the pill does not prevent fertilisation of the egg, it prevents implantation of the egg in the woom. is this murder? 30% of fertilised eggs which implant, naturally miscarry, with the many women only experiencing 'being late' - is this cause to mourn a lost life?

 

further, life is not special, anymore than wind is special. it is a strange and utterly flabbergasting creation of nature. but wind is pretty amazing too.

 

life is, however, beautiful beyond words - and beauty is pleasing and worth preservation. i could never describe the wonder i see when open my eyes to the world... it is all too much. but i also see horror and destruction - thoughtless uncaring destruction everywhere.

 

i think we should value all life, but should also value the value of life.

 

the world i live in (like yours) is imperfect for many reasons. i am surprised medicine has progressed as much as it has. this to me seems a bit over the top. but given that it has, and we are able to make certain choices, i believe abortion is one of many. and for anyone to consider that some people take this decsion lightly is probably fooling him/herself.

 

whereas i disagree with abortion being murder, i certainly think it is a terrible thing to do, and the consequences of it immense. but its a choice. and i think one which is only chosen when both paths seem equally terrible.

 

to this end, i am pro-choice, and would argue against others imposing their view of the situation to the detriment of people having this choice. they may argue their opinion, but not impose their opinion on others - especially when the matter is so hotly debated.

 

now the pill in japan...thats an issue set to make the blood boil with anger at the way it ahs been treated by the system here...but for another time

[scouser 4]

I'm not strongly against abortion.

 

Ocean11, you list all those choices that people have about contraception etc....what happens if the contraception fails and a couple who desperately don't want kids (for any number of reasons) get pregnant? Aborting that as soon as they know about it - still dead against that?

[Ocean11 0]

A couple of observations on what's been said;

 

The rape story raises a number of questions as most rape stories do. I've heard a lot of good ones, and most of them don't stand up very well. The girl knew well enough what to do to get the money together and find a place to do the abortion, which all seems savvy enough. I know that when you're young, you don't appreciate the range of choices actually available to you, so I don't want to be too harsh. (I believe very strongly that instead of learning most of the parrot-type shit you learn at school, that the basics of ethics, civics, logic, learning skills etc. should be taught. Until then, most people coming out of school will be nearly totally uneducated.)

 

mikazooki, I understand and partially agree with your views on life. But I disagree with this;

 

> whereas i disagree with abortion being murder, i certainly think it is a terrible thing to do, and the consequences of it immense. but its a choice. and i think one which is only chosen when both paths seem equally terrible.

 

You're beating about the bush, saying that abortion is terrible etc., just as murder is, but not going so far as to equate the two. And as for the two paths bit, I have literally sat and watched a couple at that junction, and seen and heard the decision being taken, and in fact the more terrible path was choosen quite lightly in fact. Although the woman involved took several years to get over it, and is still somewhat affected by it. I'm quite sure there are many cases where the decision is taken with even less thought.

 

I agree that the issue is not one where coercion is going to work, but I think there are many people who are rightly not complaisant about abortion. It needs to be looked at calmly and rationally before anything is done to improve the situation.

[veronica 2]

I am all for having the possibility of being able to have an abortion if the circumstances justify it.

[zwelgen 0]

Just to add a womens perspective

 

Ocean you say its both the womens and mans responsibility to sort it out, but in reality how often is this the case? I mean it all seems fair and good and Im guessing you might be one of the decent guys but is it really that way all the time? Say for example I go on holiday to Thailand say, have a tryst, and next month dont get my period. I have no details for this guy other than that he lives in France and I know his name is Michael and hes got a DAMN fine bod...

 

The reality of this is that I reckon in 85% or so of cases the woman is going to bear the brunt of it. Shell be living with the baby and put her life on hold for at least a few years while the guy just pays up but doesnt have to LIVE with the consequences.

 

Say Im raped and in Japan the morning after pill is pretty hard to get (its here but hard to put your hands on) and I miss my 72 hr window. If I fall preggers do I want to bring up my rapists seed? By myself?

 

Personally I could NEVER have an abortion (but the jury is still out on the rape case), I couldnt live with myself if I aborted my baby, but I would never EVER dictate someones right to choose. Everyone has to deal with things in their own way and live with their actions and Id never condem anyone that had one.

 

Aparently my great grandmother had an abortion and although I have no idea of the situation that lead to this Im guessing it wasnt in a hospital with sterile equiptment...

 

Like lots of people have said making abortion illegal will make it more difficult and cut down on the statistics, but there will be the knitting needle/bottle of gin, suicides, and then the awful back alley butchers that pretty much kill people.

 

I read an article a while back in a womans magazine and it interviewed Drs that performed abortions. One of the Drs words stuck in my mind. They said they didnt feel good at all about doing abortions but they finally started doing it when it was legalised because they had seen so many women coming in with infections and complications from back alley jobs, and most of the women eventually died.

 

I know in Japan because the pill took 40 years to be legalised and people are still freaked out by it and the J-guys like it nama and acess to the morning after pill is extremely lacking and few people even know about it, there is many many more abortions than back home.

[damian 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:
The rape story raises a number of questions as most rape stories do. I've heard a lot of good ones, and most of them don't stand up very well.

Rape is a story

Heard a lot of good ones

Don't stand up very well

Ocean, I was reading your opinions on abortion with an open mind. However, now I am more dismissive of them as I doubt that they come from an objective mind.

[ayumi 0]

Mr Ocean11, "Speaking from experience" - what is your experience?

[zwelgen 0]

rape story?

 

Last Friday night a J-friend that lives in Tokyo got a call from her workmates after she had left and they couldnt find something important, so she went back to work. Getting in the elevator a dude came running up so she held the door open for him. He got in, hit the emergency stop button, threw her to the floor and started ripping her clothes off, his willy already out and ready for action.

 

Now shes not a week little gal and screamed her head off and fought back with probably more than he was expecting. The people on the 2nd floor heard the screams and got the doors open at which point he ran off while the useless people just stood gaping.

 

She went to the police and they said there had been about 6 similar reported cases in the area with 4 of them ending in rape. So I guess my mate was lucky

 

Any thoughts on that one Ocean? Yeah I bet it was her fault, she deserved it right? I mean what was a woman doing at her workplace elevator at about 8pm on a Friday eh? How dare she? I mean she must have been asking for it.

 

Get with the pic and realise that its something that every woman thinks about a couple of times a day.

[amandanism 0]

what about the date rape drug which is so prevalent these days. a girl goes out, her drink gets spiked, and gets raped. she is totally at the exploitation of the perpetuator.

 

she has to be told the next day that she may have been raped and has no recollection of who did it and now has to deal with the circumstances (the pregnancy).

 

this happens more often then people think. no one should have to deal with being raped, let alone bearing the child of the rapist.

[Ocean11 0]

zwelgen, the first part of your posting suggests that putting careless sex before all other considerations is just fine and dandy. But is that really the case? Personally I think not.

 

db, rape is very often controversial, and whenever rape is claimed, it's necessary to have both an open mind and a critical mind. And I've heard some cracking good stories about 'rape' that has only turned out to be 'rape' in retrospect. I don't deny that rape happens though. You'll notice too that most of what I discuss is aimed at cases where it's just a simple, uncomplicated question of whether to kill a baby or not, without bringing coerced sex into the picture. barok raised that first. It's seems to me as though you have the closed mind.

 

ayumi, I've had unprotected sex, pregnancy scares, situations in which neither partner quite agreed what was going on (ie too drunk to speak), close relationships with people who have had abortions, and I've also had a child myself. I've also had conversations with people who have actually been raped and with people who have claimed to be raped but who weren't.

[zwelgen 0]

Im not saying that its fine at all O11, just that we all know how condoms can fail and the pill can let you down, even using both isnt 100%. Classic case is when youre travelling and taking malaria pills or got sick and puked things up etc. Accidents do happen is all Im saying.

[IIIII 2]

Well, I seem to be completely outnumbered here.

 

If my lady and I really didn't want kids, and we were doing our utmost to try to not get pregnant, but did because of a contraception failure - we would go get the abortion as soon as we knew. Already discussed it.

[kintaro 0]

I really tried to stay away from this one, honest, I did! But abortionists..what do you think you are pulling out of that female? An infected SPLEEN? It's a little kid!! And then you put it in the rubbish can! That last guy's post about "oh, if my lady friend and I screw up and accidentally make one...eh, it's ok to terminate the little bugger.." It sounds to me like your mother should have been pro-choice! Ooops! I've procreated. Ah, oh well, we can throw that shit away! After all, it's legal!!

[IIIII 2]

Well no we wouldn't be thinking of it as "the little bugger" or "that shit".

 

It certainly wouldn't be the easiest or happiest thing to do either...........

[Ocean11 0]

zwelgen, I'm aware of all those scenarios. But we still have to be responsible for our progeny. It's either that or the horrible scenario that Kintaro paints.

 

Why does everybody keep on insisting on the desirability of freely available abortions when you keep admitting how horrible and/or wrong it is? I don't understand that... There's more to living a good life than mere convenient sex. And children aren't the disaster that some of you seem to think they are.

[snowboard_freak 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by amandanism:
what about the date rape drug which is so prevalent these days.

I can't believe how many people get away with spiking peoples drinks in busy nightclubs. You'd think that someone would see something suss going on.

One of the gilrs that i used to go to college with came into class one day looking like shit. She had been at a poular club the night before and had her drink spiked. Luckily her boy friend was there and was sober enough to get her home before any more could happen. It annoys me how many people get away with this crap, even though there are security cameras in most places now-a-days.

[damian 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:
It's seems to me as though you have the closed mind.

I)How?

moving on...

II) regarding legitimacy of rape claims: Barok raised a perfectly valid point. You addressed the topic of rape with strong overtones of smear and discredit. If you want your opinions to be taken seriously, then you may consider doing better than:

"You are wrong, your are wrong, and so are you. Abortion is murder. Rape stories, heard some good ones, usually don't stand up".

That is how I summarise your posting so far. It is what I see at the core of the well positioned counter-arguments you have provided. I say it again, any merit in your actual reasoning for your strong opinion has been lost.

Now one of the many retorts that you will use may be that I am attacking your method and not your arguments. You would be correct as 1) I have no purpose in trying to convince you that you are wrong, 2) I have no purpose in trying to convince you that I am right, 3) all I see is aggressive emotion, not respectful debate.

As for your actual opinion on the matter, I disagree with you. If abortion is murder in your eyes then I condone the murderous women of this world who have had an abortion and appreciate the fact that the larger percentage of them are probably all the better for it. Imagine if all men thought like me. How lucky would these otherwise murderous abortion havers be to live in a world were the male law makers have granted permission for them to respond legally to a situation that men could never fully appreciate in the first place. (Please refer to point 2 above).

[mikazooki 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:
. And children aren't the disaster that some of you seem to think they are.

this statement is made as if it was a fact.

its not a fact.

children can be a disaster. leading to financial problems, terribly unhappy marriages, which favour alcoholism, spouse or child abuse, or early divorce. this may give the child a horrible youth, which offen leads to a horrible adulthood.

being a single parent may be fine for those who can cope, but some are weak of character, or poor and may suffer under the financial and emotional strain.

for some people -maybe not yourself, ocean, but others may consider children to be a disaster, and often for quite justifiable reasons.

i myself have seen, what i shall call, social victims - raised in an uncaring household, victims of neglect, who go on to take out their problems on society. this is what i mean abot the value of the value of life. it may sound callous to some, but i think an abortion is the better option of two the second is raising a child in a neglected and unloved, or worse, abused home.

and dont pretend this doesnt happen, cos it does.
and if u think its better for this situation to occur (for our poor abused child may have the odd laugh and a smile) then u r free to.

but for me its another example of a justified case for abortion.

and its just a matter of degrees. i illustrate with an extreme case. others less severe may also be justifiable.

[IIIII 2]

 

Was about to post, but you did it for me. Well said...

[miteyak 0]

IIIII - If you count the members here not the lines of text, I think you'll find more pro-choicers here, but I guess we'll need a poll to find out for real...

 

The issue here is, and always has been, about when potential life becomes more than that.

 

Embryonic stage, in the first eight weeks, the embryo does not resemble a human, and has yet to have cell division/specialisation that allows it to function beyond that of any biological entity. Terminating at this stage would be about as murderous as tucking into a rib-eye.

(note that 60% of embryos fail to reach the fetal stage anyway)

 

Fetal stage, things get blurred, as the embryo turns into the semblence of a human. As to what stage here the fetus bcomes a viable option in it's own right, i'll leave to the experts, of which there are huge discrepancies. Some have even stated they believe a human fetus shouldn't achieve human rights until several days after birth (which might be going a little too far ...)

 

With these fundamental differences, no amount of discussion can change either sides perspective. It's a debate not unlike any religious/athiest debate.

 

One thing I dont agree with is in the inclusion of the rape argument, though. The embryo, then the fetus is either a life, or not a life, and needs/doesn't need protection accordingly.

[Ocean11 0]

db, I say 'You are wrong' because that's what I believe. There's no insult or hostility implied. I thought that for the most part we were all having a fairly civilised debate.

 

barok told a story that is open to question, as many similar stories are. I questioned it, as I tend to question any story at all that I hear. It may well be that the girl in question was raped - but stories like that aren't sufficient to shake my conviction that abortion in most cases is wrong.

 

> to respond legally to a situation that men could never fully appreciate in the first place.

I wonder that you keep saying this. It suggests that you believe that men are completely lacking in imagination and empathy, when I believe that they are not. And, how can a woman who has not been through the full-term of pregancy 'know' any more about pregancy than a man?

 

> live in a world were the male law makers have granted permission...

With that argument, aren't you invalidating any other laws that apply to women? And what about granting rights to men to not have their children killed if that's not what they want?

 

mikazooki, your arguments tend towards gross elitism and eugenics. "Abort the thick and the poor." I disapprove. Who says that because I'm well-mannered, relatively sober, wealthy, and clever, that I'm both happy and deserving of existence??

[Ocean11 0]

> the embryo does not resemble a human

 

Looks can be deceiving. It's been put inside a human by another human, and it will become a human. Who's to say that it doesn't 'look human'?

 

If I beat the crap out of somebody so that they don't look human any more and then kill them, did I not really kill them after all? Or if a thalidamide baby doesn't have the requisite number of limbs, are they up for the chop too?

 

C'mon, exercise a bit more imagination here...

[MistaSparkle 0]

> the embryo does not resemble a human

 

I think what miteyak means is that in the early stages, we're talking about a bunch of cells clumped together...