mikazooki 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Quote: mikazooki, your arguments tend towards gross elitism and eugenics. "Abort the thick and the poor." I disapprove. Who says that because I'm well-mannered, relatively sober, wealthy, and clever, that I'm both happy and deserving of existence?? absolutely not. like i said i gave an extreme case as an example. u dont have to be poor to be in an unhappy malfunctioning uncaring relationship, i merely mentioned financial problems as a potential contributor, and never mentioned anything about being thick. u are now trying to contort the arguments of others in a most banal manner. it is totally undermining your opinions, as db said. Link to post Share on other sites
mikazooki 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 and for the thalidomide baby...em the answer is yes, they are up for the chop. as are a number of chromosomal abnormalities. some negatives here, as parents may feel pressured to an abortion, but again the choice is open. Link to post Share on other sites
miteyak 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 If I exercised more imagination, I could see half a son/daughter in my sperm, and the other half disappear into a sanitary towel once a month. As you said, this debate has been refreshingly civil. The debate is clinical Vs emotional/spiritual in my opinion, lets not bring imagination or lack thereof into it ... Link to post Share on other sites
miteyak 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Exactly, a clump of cells, which, as science shows us, can be manipuated to grow pretty much any way one wants (now my imagination IS working...) Link to post Share on other sites
MistaSparkle 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 I get the feeling that people who are anti-abortion, generally are conditined to believe that abortion is purely bad through their religion. I also don't really believe the issue is within the realm of a man's understanding. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Mr *, as I've said, I'm not religious at all, and was not brought up in any religion. I'm simply applying logic. I must say though that this 'cells/foetus is not human' line of argument comes close to the mystical/religious. It seems more like an article of faith than a rational observation. I say 'use your imagination', not to fantasize more than anybody already is, but to question some of the regularly presented arguments for abortion and to see why the assumptions behind them are flawed. I think that a lot of this is well within man's understanding if we don't shy away from the issues. miteyak, I know that foetuses regularly don't make it, naturally. The issue is, is human intervention to kill one wrong? I think this argument has similarities with arguments we heard a lot in the Iraq war (sorry to bring this in - I hope to clarify rather than cloud with this). It seems to me similar to the disgraceful argument that because Saddam kills innocent Iraqis, we too can kill innocent Iraqis. I don't hold with that view. mikazooki, did you not write the following?; > it may sound callous to some, but i think an abortion is the better option of two the second is raising a child in a neglected and unloved, or worse, abused home. I'm not contorting anything by saying that that is elitist and eugenics. And it does sound callous as it always has. Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 On a hypothetical level where the world is inhabited by super-rational Ubermensch (or Swift's equine Houyhnhnms perhaps), abortion is probably going to be morally unjustifiable. The world, however, is populated by real people. People who don't listen, or forget, or don't understand, or give in to temptation, or give in to the will of others, among other weaknesses and failings. If you're bored and easily entertained by other people's ignorance, have a Google for one of the many surveys that demonstrate how little most people know about anything, especially semi-taboo subjects like sex. Even countries in the UK where there are basic sexual-education classes, some of the responses display a shocking ignorance of even basic matters. While I'm all in favour of a more thorough and non-euphemistic sexual education (show em some porn! some 'em how much a kid costs and how much looking after he/she takes!), you have to remember that many of the people who undertake such a program are still not going to listen, or forget, or not understand, or give in to temptation when the time comes to do what is the natural thing. That's assuming their parents don't withdraw them from the sex-ed classes in the first place. It's all very well setting high moral standards but you have to consider whether everyone has the faculties to make such things work in the myriad of situations to which such standards are supposed to apply. Due to the reproductive instinct and various emotions involved, I think sex is the single most complex form of human behaviour. It is also affected by a whole host of societal factors and is undertaken in a great variety of situations, some of which are hardly conducive to rational choices by imperfect people. In the case of women, sometimes choice does not even come into the equation. Link to post Share on other sites
slow 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Some people want children, but they can't have. Some people don't want children, but they have... There are many reasons to have abortion. I can accept some, but cannot accept some... If I think about the children who were born without parents or parents love, they would have hard life. Link to post Share on other sites
miteyak 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 I didn't say fetuses don't regularly make it, I said embryos... A distinction for me not shared by you. Whilst we disagree on what constitutes a human life all other arguments become futile. I only hope that you really believe what you say about murder, and not being a little extreme to prove a point, because your comments may well be implicating many on this board as participants in murder, and adding unnecessary guilt to a burden many have already chosen, rightly or wrongly to bear. Link to post Share on other sites
miteyak 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Quote: Originally posted by NoFakie: On a hypothetical level where the world is inhabited by super-rational Ubermensch (or Swift's equine Houyhnhnms perhaps), abortion is probably going to be morally unjustifiable. I'm sorry, I'm ignorant of your examples here, are you suggesting that, despite leading academic rationale to the contrary, abortion is irrational, or that super-rational individuals wouldn't find themselves in that position. Your examples point to the former, (morally unjustifyable), but your musings to the latter... Link to post Share on other sites
mikazooki 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 the comments are coming think and fast...some wise words. as a personal defence, eugenics is a contrived practice with the pre-formed intent of bettering the gene pool. aborting a baby for social reasons is not eugenics. elitism reflects giving increased rights to those of intellectual or otherwise superior group, or denying rights to those not in such a group. again abortion chosen to avoid a bad future situation in no way favours this group. please spell it out for me, cos i appear to have the missed the point. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 miteyak, foetuses regularly don't make it. I've known (of) lots of people who have had that experience. Naturally it is very distressing, for the man too if it is a couple. Even more so if it is deliberate. I also rather resent your attempt at making me responsible for the grief of anybody who might be reading this who may have killed their own child. I would rather people didn't do that to themselves. NoFakie, I appreciate fully what you're saying having seen all that myself. But isn't that more reason for being accepting of the consequences, and not compounding the stupidity with killing? Having children can be a good reason to stop being a pillock and growing up - it doesn't always end in squalor and misery. Also, yes, definitely, better education. Ram it home if needs be... mikazooki, you've lost me. It seems to me that you're assuming that some kinds of children are more worthy of abortion than others, but I can't be sure. You tell me... Link to post Share on other sites
miteyak 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 I'm sorry you chose to see my post like that, Ocean11. I was merely enquiring as to whether you really believed that it was murder, and not just being dramatic. If you do believe it to be murder, then it follows that all those involved in the crime should receive appropriate jail time, no? Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Miteyak (Hello!) My intention was to admit that while the birth control methods available make it possible to avoid most unwanted pregnancies, it is all-too-easy for people who do not want children to have sex without using them. Any prescriptive statements about birth control must take this into account. People aren't just rational beings who can act logically all of the time. The Swift example refers to Gulliver's Travels (fantastic book-read it!) where Gulliver ends up in a land of talking horses who apply rational thought to every choice and decision in their lives. It's an allegory for the then contemporary writings on Utopia. Swift's intention is to show how insipid such a place would be and to satirize those that take excessive pride in their mental faculties. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Quote: Originally posted by Ocean11: mikazooki, did you not write the following?; > it may sound callous to some, but i think an abortion is the better option of two the second is raising a child in a neglected and unloved, or worse, abused home. I'm not contorting anything by saying that that is elitist and eugenics. You did contort what he said. I picked it the moment I read it. You took what he said and paraphrased it to suit your own argue-because-it-is-all-I-know post technique. Your interpretation is always right and if anyone disputes it they have to spend half a day posting complex references to previous posts. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Gulliver's Travels is indeed excellent - very good SFX from Mr. Swift. Reading an annotated version helps. miteyak, oh, I see. No I don't believe that. I certainly abhor the violence against and killing of abortion doctors too, and the harrassment of women who have abortions. But I think it needs to be acknowledged that abortion is in fact the unprovoked killing of a human ie murder, and that alternatives should be found. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Bollocks db, if you're not up to an argument, shut up! And if you're so good at spotting stuff, spot just how many times my arguments have been left completely unaddressed with anything worthwhile. Spot also the times I have acknowledged or conceded a point. Link to post Share on other sites
kintaro 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Ocean, oops, my bad With the exception of a mother's life being in danger, to me this is a black and white issue - no grey areas. The terminology "fetus" is interesting. If that's not a little human(or whatever species) what is it? Oh, it's just a fetus. Go ahead and pull it out and discard it if you like. Hell, why don't we clean up the whole neighberhood and discard the dissabled, the mentally ill, the old... Save your breath getting back to me on this one Ocean..I'm not coming back or checking this thread again...I promise this time Link to post Share on other sites
miteyak 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 eh up NoFakie! Thanks for clearing that up. On to the 'morally unjustifiable', is it unjustifiable beyond the fact that it can be prevented most of the time? I appreciate you can only answer from a NoFakie perspective, but if you were to project, would you draw the conclusion that super rational beings would find abortion morally wrong (indeed, would super rational people have a need for morality at all?) Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Quote: Originally posted by Ocean11: Bollocks db, if you're not up to an argument, shut up! why don't you shut up? I reckon well more than half this forum would appreciate it at times. The other half don't notice as they are off in the real world rather than monitoring painful exchanges of opinion on an internet forum. You go ahead and sit and argue. One day there will be no-one left to argue with. What then? No problem I suppose, there is no lack of web forums. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Pot calling the kekkle dirty arse... Go and join Plucky in the personal outburst club. Link to post Share on other sites
TheOrange 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Hey don't knock the forum itself Link to post Share on other sites
cal 6 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Wow,,,some heavy issues going on here. Very interesting. I personally am not dead against abortion. Link to post Share on other sites
oo 1 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 And I thought you too generally got on well Calm down boys. Obviously one of those explosive issues Link to post Share on other sites
zwelgen 0 Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Quote: Originally posted by Ocean11: zwelgen, I'm aware of all those scenarios. But we still have to be responsible for our progeny. Thats just my point Ocean, in many cases there is no WE in the equation, its a very frightend young woman alone and poor. There are endless scenarios where there is no WE and as the person that has to give birth to the baby the woman cant just run away or scorn their responsibilities like some guys do. I mean come on how many solo fathers do you see with kids under about 5? Ever? Quote: Why does everybody keep on insisting on the desirability of freely available abortions when you keep admitting how horrible and/or wrong it is? I think it is horrible and I think it is wrong but thats for me personally, not to put my christian idealistic views onto other people because I think its wrong. You should have the right to choose. Link to post Share on other sites
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