Colorado theater shootings

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Sorry SurfArthur,

I probably wasn't clear. I was referring to 'in my experience'.

Guns have never been a factor in my life here in Perth. I KNOW they exist here however.

 

 

Having had one shoved in your face, how has that altered (if at all) your perception of guns?

Does it make you want to have one?

 

[surfarthur 22]

No, like I said, in that situation, it probably would have done me more harm than good. I can't honestly think of a good reason for me to own a gun. I do not enjoy hunting, and every situation where I might be in a dangerous situation, and a gun might be helpful, it would likely be just as harmful to me or someone that I care about.

 

I am comfortable with people owning guns though. My stepfather owns a few, he loves hunting and he wouldn't give them up, but they are locked away when they are not in use.

 

Perhaps if I was in Syria right now a gun might be useful though.

 

I think in terms of the gun laws of the USA and how that "right to bear arms" shapes these laws, is outdated and not really relevant in a society where democracy is firmly intrenched. One of my favourite lines from the Simpsons, is where Lisa is complaining about the gun that Homer has just bought, and Homer starts pushing Lisa, and says, "If I didn't own this gun, the King of England could walk in here right now, and start pushing you around." That kind of mentality as a justification for allowing free and easy access to guns just doesn't make sense, particularly when you have the world's most powerful military to defend you against foreign invasion.

 

IMHO, At the very least, to prevent mentally unstable people from getting guns, a thorough background check should be carried out before a person can buy a gun. While this would not stop every deranged lunatic from getting a gun, it would at least make it harder.

[Slippery Jim 65]

Gnarly everyone's entitled to their own opinions. But you don't, as a wise man once said, get to have your own facts.

 

I've no problem with discussing the issue. I have a small problem with gratuitous insults, a slightly larger problem when they come informed by nothing but smug attitude, and a really big problem when they come immediately after such a tragedy.

 

By the way, those statistics come from Wikipedia, which I certainly don't think of as definitive but in this case appears to have solid referencing; if anyone has more or better stats by all means show them.

In Wikipedia search for

List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

[HelperElfMissy 42]

What you would need to adequately debate this topic is:

 

Number of accidental deaths via gunfire occurring in permissive vs restrictive gun law nations.

(and lots of information on the how's, why's and wherefores of each accident)

 

Number of intentional homicides using guns as the instrument of murder in both permissive and restrictive law nations.

(and statistics on what gun was used, how that gun was acquired and the circumstance preceding the intention to murder being formed - was it a revenge killing, is it gang related)

 

Number of mass murders perpetrated by psychopaths or the mentally insane in each permissive and restrictive law culture and the chain of acquisition of the gun/s.

 

I don't think those stats exist. At least not in the public domain.

But it would be a good place to start for a reasonable discussion.

Really...nothing is ever solved until the problem itself is fully understood.

[Slippery Jim 65]

Surfarthur, I don't think it's practical to try to ban guns in the U.S.

There're too many of them out there for it to work.

Introduction of a licensing system ala driving is the most that might ever happen.

Automatic capital punishment for use of a firearm in a felony crime would probably help a bit.

 

MB, I too doubt those stats are available.

Keep in mind, tho, that the Tsutsi & Hutu managed to kill several million of each other with mainly clubs & machetes.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Automatic capital punishment for use of a firearm in a felony crime would probably help a bit.

Much as my automatic reaction to murder, especially this kind of mass murder of innocent people is 'make the bastard fry' - the reality is the people that commit these acts are usually mentally ill and some with medication and treatment are as appalled by thier own actions as we, the community, are.

 

I vacillate between an eye for an eye, and rehabilitate and show compassion.

 

Rock hard place

And this ^ is me.

[klingon 10]

Are statistics really required for people to judge that a dude should not be able to go into shops and buy 4 weapons and however many rounds of ammunition on the internet?

 

I really don't think so.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Are statistics really required for people to judge that a dude should not be able to go into shops and buy 4 weapons and however many rounds of ammunition on the internet?

 

I really don't think so.

With that I agree.

How is it OK for him to buy FOUR guns?

And...what was it? 6000? Rounds of ammo via the net?

 

There are supposed checks and balances of some kind in the US.

But this suggests whatever they are, they can be circumvented.

[1 4]

and a really big problem when they come immediately after such a tragedy.

 

I think the timing should be right now.

Now.

No, it should have been had yesterday.

Sure as heck ain't going to happen tomorrow.

 

When do you think the timing should be DiGriz? After 1 week? Perhaps a month? Or 100 days? Or after next time? Or perhaps just... never.

[charlotte 0]

I think that the cultural changes over the last however many years has been towards a normalisation not just of violence, but of callousness towards one another in all kinds of ways.

 

The defaut setting these days seems to often be one of aggression (though certainly not here in Japan), point scoring and me, me, me. Obviously that is far from someone blitzing an audience in a cinema, but when aggression is so much a part of the normal day, maybe we shouldnt be surprised when it goes to extremes.

 

The look at me culture seems at the heart of so much dysfunction these days.

 

That's what I think.

 

Oh yeah, and people shouldn't be able to buy guns readily.

 

(Do all farmers in Japan have guns? My guess would be... er, no!)

[pie-eater 207]

Onion

 

WASHINGTON—Americans across the nation confirmed today that, unfortunately, due to their extreme familiarity with the type of tragedy that occurred in a Colorado movie theater last night, they sadly know exactly how the events following the horrific shooting of 12 people will unfold.

 

While admitting they "absolutely hate" the fact they have this knowledge, the nation's 300 million citizens told reporters they can pinpoint down to the hour when the first candlelight vigil will be held, roughly how many people will attend, how many times the county sheriff will address the media in the coming weeks, and when the town-wide memorial service will be held.

 

Additionally, sources nationwide took no pleasure in confirming that some sort of video recording, written material, or disturbing photographs made by the shooter will be surfacing in about an hour or two.

 

"I hate to say it, but we as Americans are basically experts at this kind of thing by now,” said 45-year-old market analyst Jared Gerson, adding that the number of media images of Aurora, CO citizens crying and looking shocked is “pretty much right in line with where it usually is at this point." "The calls not to politicize the tragedy should be starting in an hour, but by 1:30 p.m. tomorrow the issue will have been politicized. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if the shooter’s high school classmate is interviewed within 45 minutes."

 

"It's like clockwork," said Gerson, who sighed, shook his head, and walked away.

 

According to the nation's citizenry, calls for a mature, thoughtful debate about the role of guns in American society started right on time, and should persist throughout the next week or so. However, the populace noted, the debate will soon spiral out of control and ultimately lead to nothing of any substance, a fact Americans everywhere acknowledged they felt "absolutely horrible" to be aware of.

 

With scalpel-like precision, the American populace then went on to predict, to the minute, how long it will take for the media to swarm Aurora, CO, how long it will take for them to leave, and exactly when questions will be raised as to whether or not violence in movies and video games had something to do with the act.

 

The nation's citizens also confirmed that, any time now, some religious figure or cable news personality will say something unbelievably insensitive about the tragic shooting.

 

"Unfortunately, I've been through this a lot, and I pretty much have it down to a science when President Obama will visit Colorado, when he will meet with the families of those who lost loved ones, and when he will give his big speech that people will call 'unifying' and 'very presidential,'" Jacksonville resident Amy Brennen, 32, said, speaking for every other person in the country. "Nothing really surprises me when it comes to this kind of thing anymore. And that makes me feel terrible."

 

"Oh, and here's another thing I hate I know," Brennen continued, "In exactly two weeks this will all be over and it will be like it never happened.

[Slippery Jim 65]

MB, I tend to vacillate between eye-for-eye and tooth-for-tooth, and I think that if with treatment they realized the magnitude of their acts they'd kill themselves.

Restrictions on gun/ammunition purchases in the US are minimal and quite easily circumvented.

 

Klingon, no stats are needed to have an opinion. Thanks for sharing yours.

 

1, I don't have a definitive answer for you, maybe just it would be polite to hold off the smarmy digs until the blood dries.

 

FWIW, I'm not really very concerned with the whole issue of guns and violence in the US. I don't live there, and when I visit I'd have to be quite unlucky to ever be affected by it. I understand the emotions and arguments of both sides, agree wholly with neither and wish they'd both wake up to the need for some practical changes.

 

But when people figuratively piss on my country at a time of tragedy for no better reason than to make themselves look like the cool dudes in the school, well that's a bit rich.

[@tokyo 14]

That last comment.

 

What a ridiculous, ridiculous comment.

 

You really believe that people make comments to 'make themselves look like the cool dudes in the school'?

 

Talk about seriously deluded.

[Slippery Jim 65]

Cool comment, dude!

[@tokyo 14]

 

I am surprised it took you that long to come up with that one!

 

Can you perhaps try to perhaps just slightly less predictable next time? Shouldn't take much effort.

[1 4]

As DiGriz said

 

Lot of people get all butthurt when they think their favorite 'best country in the world' isn't getting the respect it deserves.

That's a shame, but nothing I can fix.

[Slippery Jim 65]

Oooh, ain't you just the sole of wit!

 

p.s. try finding one comment by me calling the US the ``best country in the world'' or anything remotely similar -- be prepared for disappointment

[1 4]

Damn I just couldn't find one.

Isn't that what the US is though?

[Go Native 70]

What has not been discussed so far is the incredible political power the gun lobby has in the US primarily through organisations like the NRA. This is the main reason why gun control is so difficult to enact. There's a lot of money involved and too many right wing nutters with power.

It's like with so many things in the US compared to most other developed nations. Things like universal healthcare, education, etc. American's just seem to think differently to the rest of us out there in the world. Things we accept as basic human rights they consider privileges that should only be available to those that can afford it. Most of us live in countries where it's inconceivable why a person would require a fully automatic assault weapon for recreational purposes and yet many American's seem to consider this a basic right. A very weird country that's for sure and one most of us in other modern, developed nations just can't understand. I think most of us from other countries continually shake our heads and say "only in America".

[surfarthur 22]

Surfarthur, I don't think it's practical to try to ban guns in the U.S.

There're too many of them out there for it to work.

Introduction of a licensing system ala driving is the most that might ever happen.

Automatic capital punishment for use of a firearm in a felony crime would probably help a bit.

 

 

Licencing would be a great start, and of course it would be a slow process, but eventually you would be able to reduce the total number of guns out there and the rate of gun ownership with the right plan. If you tried to make changes too quickly it would definitely fail. It might take 50 years or more of slow reform, but would absolutely be possible.

 

The issue is really trying to change popular opinion and attitudes towards this issue. This is a real challenge, regardless of the issue at hand and the country you are talking about (take climate change as an example). I think it would be a worthwhile effort though.

 

And for the record, I never mentioned banning guns, just restricting the availability of particular types of guns, along with a thorough background check for any potential new gun owner, which would probably be best done through a licensing system. I also realise the likelihood of this happening in every state is slim, although my understanding is that some states have different requirements to others, with some states already restricting the types of guns available to the masses and different requirements regarding background checks, so for some states there would be minimal change if a licensing system was to be introduced.

[surfarthur 22]

What has not been discussed so far is the incredible political power the gun lobby has in the US primarily through organisations like the NRA. This is the main reason why gun control is so difficult to enact. There's a lot of money involved and too many right wing nutters with power.

It's like with so many things in the US compared to most other developed nations. Things like universal healthcare, education, etc. American's just seem to think differently to the rest of us out there in the world. Things we accept as basic human rights they consider privileges that should only be available to those that can afford it. Most of us live in countries where it's inconceivable why a person would require a fully automatic assault weapon for recreational purposes and yet many American's seem to consider this a basic right. A very weird country that's for sure and one most of us in other modern, developed nations just can't understand. I think most of us from other countries continually shake our heads and say "only in America".

I think that is down to differences in what we expect the roles of government to be, at a more fundamental level than simply saying that Americans aren't concerned for the welfare of other people, along with a fair bit of political spin from various lobby groups. The same type of spin exists here in Australia, an example of this is the people in WA who believe that daylight savings would fade their curtains faster.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Does anyone in WA actually think that SurfArthur?! I mean, really?!

 

 

It sounds very sensible introducing slow, measured change.

But the fact that different states have different gun licensing laws presents some interesting questions about how you manage the flow of product between states...

 

[surfarthur 22]

Yes they do Mamabear, I have met them. Admittedly not the sharpest tools in the shed.

 

It is suprising the number of people I talk to about sunday trading who respond "no one wants to shop on a sunday anyway" who then look stunned when I tell them that Joondalup shopping centre does half of its weeks trade on a sunday. You can convince most people just about anything if you try hard enough and the opposing point of view / scientific facts are not readily available.

[Slippery Jim 65]

1: [isn't that what the US is though?] Well, if you think so then it is for you.

 

GN: I admire your ability to speak on behalf of so many people. You've got me outgunned millions to one, so I'll just surrender and embrace the nanny state

 

Surfarthur & MB: you're right it's a real dog's mess of rules and attitudes. 50 years is very optimistic.

[Go Native 70]

Hey I don't really care one way or the other DiGriz. You guys can keep killings yourselves as much as you want. Go for it! It's fun for the rest of us to watch US society imploding