HelperElfMissy 42 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Interesting story this... ABC News Online story about MacDonalds Death due to overwork ********************************************************* Japanese officials say a McDonald's store manager who died of a brain haemorrhage was overworked to death. About 150 Japanese deaths are attributed to excessive working hours every year. The labour office says the McDonald's manager was doing more than 20 hours a week overtime when she suffered a brain haemorrhage and died in 2007.McDonald's declined to comment on the ruling, but the fast food chain was last year ordered to pay $80,000 to another Japanese store manager who worked up to 100 hours of unpaid overtime a month. In Japan, deaths from overwork are known as "karoshi" and usually come in the form of strokes or heart attacks. ********************************************************* Goodness. I have never heard of 'Death by Work' before - well officially at least... we all complain about being worked to death...but really?! Papa works at least 60hrs a week... so do many people. And yeah...I suppose a huge committment at work can mean that your diet/exercise and 'zen' state suffer, leading to ill health...but death by working too hard? Really?... Link to post Share on other sites
klingon 10 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I saw that on the news last night. They even interviewed someone who signed it off by remarking "well, at least she gambarimashita" (in Japanese of course!) Seemed a ridiculous thing to say. Karoshi is almost something to strive to it seems. Link to post Share on other sites
bobby12 0 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Mamabears point is interesting though, really why should overwork kill you? When I look at many hobbies, they are just work in sheeps clothing. - Sports are like physical labour or war. - DIY, PC-building, even video games all basically like work. If anything, being at work is more relaxing than going home to do those hobbies (or household chores, looking after screaming kids). So why should overtime kill someone? Maybe the deaths are just co-incidence and they would have died regardless, but in the absence of any obvious cause the next-of-kin blame it on overwork to get some $$$ from the employer. Link to post Share on other sites
gareth_oau 2 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I dont think it was the work that actually killed her. i think that it was only leaving 4 hours per day to go home, sleep etc Link to post Share on other sites
Yuki's Passion 1 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Originally Posted By: gareth_oau I dont think it was the work that actually killed her. i think that it was only leaving 4 hours per day to go home, sleep etc so in the other 20 hours she was awake she actually enjoyed work? McDonalds in Japan has a horrendous record of taking piss-poor care of their employees, not like we should be surprised at that now should we. Check Japantimes for other similar reports. I would certainly fit in that éŽåŠ´æ»ã€€category!! Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I wouldn't. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I think it's pretty well documented that stress is a major cause of illness. Being overworked and sleep deprived can certainly increase stress levels. Being in positions where you have a large amount of responsibility for the success of the business you work for can also dramatically increase stress levels and mean you work many extra hours of overtime, often unpaid. I can easily see how work can be considered a contributing factor to dying. Bobby12 hobbies are not work, they are generally things you choose to do that actually help relieve stress in your life. Working many hours of overtime is not something you would normally choose to do but you do it because you feel a reponsibility to the company you work for and normally adds to the stress in your life. Link to post Share on other sites
RobBright 35 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Originally Posted By: thursday I wouldn't. You'll die from Over-posting here first. Link to post Share on other sites
bobby12 0 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 GoNative: so what we are saying is that it is not over-work as such, but over-stress that causes death. The actual physical labour is not harming the body, it is purely mental. But somehow I find it hard to see how mental stress can cause death. Sleep deprivation I can understand, but not stress alone. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Did a quick search and found this explanation. Plenty of other sites that may explain it more in depth. Quote: The Fight or Flight Response Stress can trigger the body’s response to perceived threat or danger, the Fight-or-Flight response. During this reaction, certain hormones like adrenalin and cortisol are released, speeding the heart rate, slowing digestion, shunting blood flow to major muscle groups, and changing various other autonomic nervous functions, giving the body a burst of energy and strength. Originally named for its ability to enable us to physically fight or run away when faced with danger, it’s now activated in situations where neither response is appropriate, like in traffic or during a stressful day at work. When the perceived threat is gone, systems are designed to return to normal function via the relaxation response, but in our times of chronic stress, this often doesn’t happen enough, causing damage to the body. Stress and Health: Implications of Chronic Stress When faced with chronic stress and an overactivated autonomic nervous system, people begin to see physical symptoms. The first symptoms are relatively mild, like chronic headaches and increased susceptibility to colds. With more exposure to chronic stress, however, more serious health problems may develop. These stress-influenced conditions include, but are not limited to: •depression •diabetes •hair loss •heart disease •hyperthyroidism •obesity •obsessive-compulsive or anxiety disorder •sexual dysfunction •tooth and gum disease •ulcers •cancer (possibly) In fact, most it’s been estimated that as many as 90% of doctor’s visits are for symptoms that are at least partially stress-related! Things like a hobby at the end of a stressful day can help us not develop chronic stress symtoms. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 stress does lead to a load of problems. It can make insomnia which in itself can be very trouble some. Relaxing, during or at the end of the day is one thing we can do to eleviate some of the stress buit up during a working day. Stress can easily be built up by: - having useless meetings - explaining simple things to stupid people mutiple times - not being able to figure out how to get some figures out - being totally thick and not being able to figure things out by yourself. etc. etc. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Originally Posted By: RobBright Originally Posted By: thursday I wouldn't. You'll die from Over-posting here first. to over post there must be a posting threshold. So what is that? As soon as I reach that, I'd better stop and de-stress myself. Link to post Share on other sites
bobby12 0 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 "When faced with chronic stress and an overactivated autonomic nervous system, people begin to see physical symptoms. The first symptoms are relatively mild, like chronic headaches and increased susceptibility to colds." I think I have caught it. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Of course what I find stressful another person may have fun. Some people actually enjoy working hard and like responsibility! Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 Well I think that is the point for me. It is not like your job is the Kokoda Trail, where you could be worked to death (well that and the distemper, poor hygiene, lack of sleep, lack of food...) ... but you get the point. No one has a gun to the employee's head and is saying "work" until they literally die. Stress. And interesting thing. Many people experience job stress. But loads of people experience marital stress, emotional stress, parenting stress, financial stress...etc. Are they different and distinct from each other? Not really. The person who experiences debilitating job stress is probably also stressing out over the electricity bill, and the teenagers lack of motivation to find a part time job, and the nasty way the check out chick looks at him/her when they do their weekly shopping ---> they are a stress-er. A person with the rest of their life in a zen-like space is not likely to be suffering with job stress....they would have made the changes to reduce the stress, or quit. So who is to blame? The employer? Or the employee for allowing themselves to suffer and injure their health? I speak from experience. I have experienced job stress - job stress that rendered me ill and unable to work, physical stress that left me unable to brush my own hair or pick up a full cup of coffee. Emotional stress that saw me having panic attacks when I had to go out and avoiding friends and family because I couldn't cope with the interaction. I was 22 yrs old, and naive enough to think that it was all happening to me, I had no control and my work was responsible for the horrible mess I was in. I NOW know that it was totally my fault for allowing it to happen. After getting a 3am call out and getting home at 6am I should have told the office to 'shove it' - I would be in at lunchtime after I have had some sleep - not at 8am as was expected, and so on. *I* am responsible for my health. Not my employer. In fact - I have recently quit my job (temporarily) to concentrate on my health because I will not let that happen ever again. Work can cause stress. Which can cause illness. Which canresult in death. But unless you get munched up by the mincer when you are a butcher, or the prefab concrete wall falls on you on a building site - can it really be deemed the employer's FAULT? Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I heard once McDs in Japan works them hard with the promise of big bonuses for branch managers. A million plus was the figure I heard, twice a year I guess. Huge turnover of staff apparently. In this woman's case, the paper's are saying she was a manageress in name only. Performance-related pay is good, but unpaid overtime in the hope of bonuses strikes me as exploitative. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: Mamabear So who is to blame? The employer? Or the employee for allowing themselves to suffer and injure their health? *I* am responsible for my health. Not my employer. In fact - I have recently quit my job (temporarily) to concentrate on my health because I will not let that happen ever again. MB I think there are some other factors that can come into play here in Japan. I have never been in any other country where they take their work responsibility so seriously. Even in the lowest paid, crappiest jobs they seem to take great pride in doing the job well. In Aus even very career minded people are likely to work for many different employers over the years. Here in Japan even though things have been changing a fair bit in recent years I think there's still much more loyalty to the company. There are cultural factors at play where employees are much more likely here to put work ahead of most other things in their life including their own health. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share Posted October 30, 2009 I hear you GN. I really do. I saw that just in the short and sporadic visits I made to Japan. I also understand the 'company man' type of person. (I tend to be a little like that myself)... BUT! I don't think that TODAY we need courts reinforcing antiquated ideology of blaming the master for the serfs ills. It is time for people to put on the 'big girl panties' and take some F%&*ing responsibility for themselves and their happiness. I'm a bit over the 'woe is me' attitude that some people bring to life ...sorry. Could ya tell? Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Yeah but in Japan it's not a 'woe is me attitude'. I think here to die from overwork is almost considered an honorable way to go! Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share Posted October 30, 2009 yeah well that's just dumb too... Link to post Share on other sites
bobby12 0 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 "I think there's still much more loyalty to the company." As a salaryman for a traditional job-for-life style JP company I can add a little insight here. There are three main reasons why employees stay for life: 1) Strong financial incentive (pay related to age not ability, retirement bonuses are exponential based on #yrs in company, etc) 2) Almost impossible to get a decent job once you pass 27 - if you do you are treated as lowly newbie scum (exception: if you are headhunted) 3) Japanese culture: group-bonding, loyalty to the shogun, fear of change etc. I'd say point (3) is about 1% of the reason. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share Posted October 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: bobby12 I'd say point (3) is about 1% of the reason. Interesting. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 number 1 sounds excellent. I like number 1. Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 年功åºåˆ— Link to post Share on other sites
sanjo 2 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Originally Posted By: thursday number 1 sounds excellent. I like number 1. It sure is an incentive for many I would guess. Link to post Share on other sites
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