Dolphins & Whales.

[indosnm 0]

Read this and see how you feel..

 

 

[Ezorisu 0]

Regardless of whether I agree with the surfers actions or not, I applaud the fact that they had the fortitude and conviction to take action for what they believed in.

 

If they get busted and deported by the Japanese authorities for these actions (right or wrong), I'd say they deserve that too.

 

All within the bounds of "doing what you beleive in" - you have to be willing to take the consequences, or else stay home on the sofa.

[kokodoko 67]

I saw it on the news and was awfully distressed.

 

--

[spook 0]

is the killing of cetacenas necessary? this topic is going to open a whole can of worms (healthy discussion is a good thing though in my opinion)

 

if the hunting is for a vital food source, then abhorent as the practice may be, it can be justified (i'm sure oyuki will vehemently disagree on this, and i fully understand his position). but from those images it seems like a cruel and unnecessary slaughter

 

another point - why is killing dolphins and whales any worse than the industrialised slaughter of cows, pigs and chickens? assuming the dolphins are not endangered, is it a defendable practice?

 

for me, i find those images and the story repulsive. but then i am a hypocrite because i will eat a hamburger for dinner tonight

[indosnm 0]

video..

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=313615

[Yuki's Passion 1]

dolphins are toxic for you, bottlenose, striped, etc, they all contain high levels of mercury; and the FREAKING GOVT allows the city of Taiji, Wakayama, which kills around 10% of Japanese dolphins, to catch them, put them in tanks, send them to HK, Taiwan, and China, but also to feed them to ELEMENTARY school students in Wakayama. Often times the levels of mercury are 20X's higher than the allowed amount. WTF?!?!

[thursday 1]

"put them in tanks, send them to HK, Taiwan, and China, but also to feed them to ELEMENTARY school students in Wakayama"

 

What are you insinuating?

 

The Chinese white dolphin is a protected species here and they are treated as such.

[Yuki's Passion 1]

talking about Japanese hunting dolphins, selling them to those countries, and putting them in elementary school lunches. Whats so difficult to understand? might be off topic but wonder how many people know that. Check the net, loads of info. Most people know Japan hunts whales...what bout dolphins? I hate the fact that the govt stance on toxic levels of mercury in dolphins is that if its too high, stores are only required to voluntarily take them off the shelves. Lets feeding toxic food to kids! Great job Japan...

 

check japantimes.com for more info or google it.

[Ezorisu 0]

 Originally Posted By: thursday

The Chinese white dolphin is a protected species here and they are treated as such.

Baiji? The Yangtse river dolphin? Haven't those been declared extinct?

Not sure what kind of treatment that would be if it led to extinction...

[thursday 1]

Scientific Name: Sousa chinesis (Chinese White Dolphin)

 

In Hong Kong's scenic western harbor, a population of around 120 Indo-pacific Humpback Dolphins, or Chinese White Dolphins are fighting to survive against barrage of threats: pollution, habitat loss, over fishing, and boat traffic.

 

more here

[thursday 1]

[Oyuki kigan 0]

The method of killing is particularily horrific. In Taiji, they only wound a few dolphins at first (because dolphins never abandon wounded family members, the cullers can get more.

 

They then basically haul them out of the water with hooks, slit their throauts, and let them sufforcate as they bleed to death.

 

And the majority of Japanese have never heard about this, because it is carefully screened from them.

[Rag-Doll 0]

 Originally Posted By: spook

another point - why is killing dolphins and whales any worse than the industrialised slaughter of cows, pigs and chickens? assuming the dolphins are not endangered, is it a defendable practice?

for me, i find those images and the story repulsive. but then i am a hypocrite because i will eat a hamburger for dinner tonight

The difference is there are lots of regulations that govern how live stock are managed and treated and killed. Ok, chickens probably live a pretty crappy life before getting the chop, but the chicken or cows you eat aren't killed by a farmer wading into a pen with a machette. I don't know why it matters but also, the cows and sheep and chickens are domesticated, and have been bred for the purpose and largely owe their existance to the fact they will one day be eaten. Whilst they probably aren't enthusiastic about it the chickens and cows don't go to a slow and painful death being terrorised by small minded ingnorant people. Enjoy the hamburger safe in the knowledge that if you are a hypocrit, it isn't because of that!

[Yuki's Passion 1]

Ewok and I saw the Irrawady (sp?) dolphins in Kratie, Cambodia...supposedly less than a 100 left. What a shame. That was quite a treat

 

It takes 5x's the amount of grain to raise cattle which could be used for feeding people. Also, the land used for cows (pastures) often leads to desertification and ends up good for nothing. Rainforests are being cut down to make room for McDonalds/Burger King, Wendy's cattle & other vegetables. Sucks doesnt it?

[Oyuki kigan 0]

 Originally Posted By: Rag-Doll

 Originally Posted By: spook

another point - why is killing dolphins and whales any worse than the industrialised slaughter of cows, pigs and chickens? assuming the dolphins are not endangered, is it a defendable practice?

for me, i find those images and the story repulsive. but then i am a hypocrite because i will eat a hamburger for dinner tonight

The difference is there are lots of regulations that govern how live stock are managed and treated and killed. Ok, chickens probably live a pretty crappy life before getting the chop, but the chicken or cows you eat aren't killed by a farmer wading into a pen with a machette. I don't know why it matters but also, the cows and sheep and chickens are domesticated, and have been bred for the purpose and largely owe their existance to the fact they will one day be eaten. Whilst they probably aren't enthusiastic about it the chickens and cows don't go to a slow and painful death being terrorised by small minded ingnorant people. Enjoy the hamburger safe in the knowledge that if you are a hypocrit, it isn't because of that!

Sorry Rag-doll, but those regulations are rarely enforced. Modern-day Industrial farming treats animals like shit.
And no, it doesn't matter whether the animal is domesticated or not, they don't deserve to be subjected to any kind of cruelty (that can be avoided). And as humans, we CAN avoid it.

Do you have any idea how you get your hamburger?

The animals are inseminated on 'Rape racks', either artifically or from a bull. After birth, the calves are removed from the mothers, when otherwise they would naturally feed and be nurtured. I won't get into how veal is treated, and you probably know.

The calves that are kept (depending if its for milking or not, some sexes of calves are disposed of).in small stalls, where thy live the majority of their life, rarely seeing sun (unless it is a free-range operation).

because they are kept in cramped conditions, disease and filth is a problem. So they are given massive amounts of antibiotics in their feed, and hormones to make them grow unnaturaly fast.

They are also usually de-horned and branded (sometimes on the face)without anasthetic.

When their short/cruel lives are at an end, they are herded into the trucks that drive them to the slaughterhouse, regardless if the weather is sweltering or if it is freezing.

Animals that are lame or have broken legs from being forced into the truck are dragged out and shot. the animals that do survive are taken to the slaughterhouse. Due to the vast number of animals going through the proccess, it is impossible to humanely kill them all, and some animals make it past the stun bolt to be dissected alive.

This is just a partial and brief run-down. Chickens and pigs have it worse in some ways.

Watch the Documentary "Earthlings" and then tell me we treat domesticated animals great.

And i agree, while it is nice to see people care about the welfare of the dolphins, it is hypocritical to ignore the cruelty bestowed on domesticated animals.

[Rag-Doll 0]

 Originally Posted By: Oyuki kigan

Do you have any idea how you get your hamburger?

I generally jsut go up to the counter and ask for one. Provided I pay over some money and it is the right kind of counter, I find I'm usually pretty successful. How do you get yours? Ok, I'm joking. I just don't want to get into another afternoon of back and forth. Each to his own I guess - I enjoy veal, and grain feed beef and all the other nice things about food. I don't like even the thought of whales and dolphins being butchered.

In Aust, cows and sheep are stunned prior to being killed - a somewhat better process than hacking into them with a machette. This was my point.

On the use of the rather emotive and descriptive term "Rape Racks", the majority, if not all, cattle farming in Aust is still very much a case of cows in paddocks. There are different levels of grain feed beef and many vendors, woolworths for example, will buy cattle from farms and put them into grain feed lots for a specified number of days before slaughter. Sheep too for that matter - many of my relatives are farmers in Victoria, by the way. That is quite a bit different to the battery-hen type production evoked by your description. Honestly don't want to get into a long discussion. Food production on an industrial scale is always going to look pretty shabby. My point was though that with the possible exception of battery hens, the hamburger we're eat met a far better end than that which the whales and dolphins are subject to.

[Oyuki kigan 0]

'rape rack' is an industry term, not mine.

 

and unless you but all your meat from an organic vendor, i disagree that your cow was treated better that the dolphin.

 

After all, the cow was subjected to years of suffering, and kept in very unnatural circumstances. The Dolphin lived a free life until that one day, and was killed horribly.

 

To say one is 'better/worse' than the other is to compare apples to oranges. the point is, they both still suck.

 

and like i said befor, the number of animals going through the slaughterhouse process makes it impssible to humanely stun and kill them all.

 

and where do you buy your magic, cruelty-free hamburgers, at a fast food chain? They only care how the animal is treated if a) their customers care enough tomake a stink) or it means cheaper meat.

They buy the cheapest stuff, which usually means the worst conditions.

 

 

but here, watch the documentary here

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhxKnys7Ryw

 

it shows both factory farming as well as the dolphin cull. You can decise for yourself if one is less cruel than another.

 

[Rag-Doll 0]

 Originally Posted By: Oyuki kigan

This is just a partial and brief run-down. Chickens and pigs have it worse in some ways.

That's because they deserve, being chickens and pigs and all.

 Originally Posted By: Oyuki kigan

Watch the Documentary "Earthlings" and then tell me we treat domesticated animals great.

Was that one of Gore's? A very balanced and objective assessment of the meat and live stock industry, I'm sure. I wonder what people would make of the quality of life of wild herbivors, in say, Africa where if the parasites don't get them there is half a dozen other species ready to rip them apart.

Domesticated animals get it pretty good really. No danger of being stalked and killed (or eaten alive) by a predator. Wormed and druged and otherwise kept parasite free, well fed and with years spent blissfully free of any concerns apart from the occassional change in paddock.

I may be many things, some of them not very nice, but I very much doubt I'm a hypocrit. I don't go on about how badly live stock are treated and still eat meat - CB and Oyuki I'm sure for all your objections to the meat industry you still enjoy a bit of yakiniku - that's hypocritcal. I don't have a problem with the meat industry, hence, with a very clear conscience I can tuck into dinner tonight. I have a problem with unnecessary cruelty. Dolphins are not much smarter than dogs and may not be even that smart. If dolphins could be farmed and killed humanely, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it. In one way it's nothing more than a variation on the same food chain that is repeated a million time around the world with every other animal. Butchering them from boats using knifes is beyond the pale.

[Rag-Doll 0]

Seriously, have you ever been to a farm? Have you ever actually seen livestock being handled, talked to farmers? I'm not referring to some marginal industry in northern Japan where the animals are locked up all year because its either too bloody cold or there is no land for them. Maccas in Japan used to use australian beef - maybe they still do. The vast bulk of those animals would have grown up in large paddocks doing pretty much bugger all for most of their lives but eating grass. Really. Documentries by meat-means-murder- vegans are about as an accurate reflection of the meat and live stock industry as big Al's doco was about global warming.

 

Oyuki, get some balance mate. It's all very well being a concerned new ager but you need to at least appreaciate that there degrees and all information is tanished by the bias of its presenter. The more extreme the position of the presenter, the more questionable the information.

 

All this talk about food is making me hungry. I'm off to Maccas, who wants to come?

[Oyuki kigan 0]

Please, Rag-doll,

 

i'm not here to sling insults at each other. I am here to say that one dolphins life is not worth more than a cows. But in our society we have a hypocrisy that reveres one and treats the other like dirt.

 

the example i gave of factory farming is the standard for the US, not Japan. I actually have little idea of how Japan raises beef, except for publisised accounts of Kobe beef (which i find just as disgusting as the dolphin cull)

 

And you can't discount a movie without even seeing it. No, it is not "Gore's" movie. That is rather unfair, to put down a movie and info you haven't seen and obviously know little about.

 

please watch it before commenting on it.

 

And you are right, i would be a hypocrite if i indulged in yakiniku.

 

As for farms, i have grown up in the interior of Canada, where beef is a big industry. And yes, many of the local farms still allow the cattle to graze, and i can't complain too much about that.

 

But if you think that is where your fast-food hamburger came from, think again.

 

I applaud the fact that you find the dolphin cull barbarous (and rightly so), but am worried that nice images of cows outside may hide the reality that not all of them die a pleasant death. or that even most cows we consume are raised in that fashion.

 

 

and i do find it insulting to be referred to as 'new-age7 for insinuating that all animals deserve to be treated with respect. Not an incraedibly radical statement, is it?

 

[Rag-Doll 0]

I'm not insulting you I'm just not taking this very seriously. you're calling me a hypocrit but I'm not the one who holds forth on the evils of meat production and, I'm assuming, still enjoys a diet as wide ranging as the rest of us. If you're a vegan - ok not a hypocrit in respect of food consumption, if you're not then if the boot fits...

I don't have a problem with the meat industry and i luuv grain fed beef and veal. A nice steak washed down with a really expensive red wine is as good as a niseko powder run and lasts longer. I don't think on the whole that the animals are particularly badly treated, given the industrial requirements to feed billions of people.

 

To be honest Oyuki, what I do have a problem with is psuedo greenies and new agers who sprout the latest pop culture about saving the world but actually do bugger all about it. Short of dropping out of society completely and growing your own food and weaving your own clothes you're part of the problem and going through the motions of being environmentally friendly when at best they're consuming only a very small percentage less of the world's resources than I am is delusional. It's like Arbor snowboard going on about their green credentials because the top 2ml of their snowboards are made from wood, from which they've cut down!

 

Having read your other post, I've edited this one.

 

Oyuki, if I have offended, I apologise. It wasn't intended and I have enjoyed our occassional back and forths. I'm glad they don't decend into the childish insults we used to see on here. I probably won't get to Hakuba in the next couple of years but if I ever do, I'd like to hook up and do some riding with you.

 

 

 

[Yuki's Passion 1]

interesting talk boys. I dont eat fast food and dont cook hamburgers nor steaks either. Do like Yakitori and Yakiniku though RD, but on average, might go to both once a year each. Make me a hypocrite? Dunno. I dont think we can ever humanely deal with slaughtering animals. And as you said, unless youre a vegan you cant say anything. I for one, am not that extreme...more like a neo-vegetarian...whatever that means

[Yuki's Passion 1]

a tekitou 適当な vegetarian might be better

[Oyuki kigan 0]

OK rag-doll, i can see your point, but what is someone to do if they don't like how the world is?

 

If someone does not like the dolphin cull, what is one to do?

 

If i do not agree with industrial farming, what can i do? Is it hypocritical and ineffective to personally pull all your support from it, and for example, only buy and support organically grown, free-range beef instead?

 

 

If i don't want to use up all the resources, what can i do within this society but use less, and try to support companies that are green?

 

does an addict saying that "heroin is bad" to a bunch of other addicts make that statement any less true? Even if we have little choice but to do some harm living in this society, is it not something to try to do less harm? And would it be better to do less and less heroin, even if at first one was unable to quit completely?

 

I agree that there are hypocrites within the green movement, and i am one of them. I still drive a car when it is convenient for me. I still use fossil fuels. But i am trying to cut down.

 

But talking about the 'greenies' hypocracy still has no bearing on the point i'm trying to make, which is "being cruel to one animal for food is pretty much useless unless you apply it to all animals for food."

 

We seem to have very different views on what is cruel, and if the cuelty even exists or not. I have given the video in my defense. While i agree, it shows only the more extreme cases of abuse, that fact that they happen (and are to some extent, required) is not really a point to argue, i feel.

 

Personally, i came to the realization that if i wouldn't allow someone to be cruel to my dog, i couldn't allow the same treatment to any other animals, like pigs (who have at least the same, if not higher intelligence).

 

For that, as well as many, many other reasons, i quit eating meat, and began researching into how we treat our animals. The hypocrisy was, as you point out, too much to bear. And this is after being raised a devout carnivore for 25 years.

 

A very good book i am reading about the subject is quite new with the latest data, called 'The Food Revolution', by John Robbins. If you would like perhaps a different opinion on the subject from your own (for the sake of balance, perhaps), please read it.

 

 

Oh, and if you do make it up to Haks before i get kicked out of Japan, i would like to do some riding with you and chat.

 

And Creek Boy, yeah, eating meat once in a while is still a load better than eating it every day. I would be stoked if the population at large would eat meat twice a week or so instead of every day. The change would have huge implications for animals as well as the environment.

 

[Rag-Doll 0]

I'll keep an eye out for the book. Thanks for the fun guys, and sorry again to everyone if I came across as being a bit of a smart arse. It's friday and I'm just a little bored.