HotMagma 0 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 On tv this morning, one of the "wide" show thingies, they were commenting on the winter sports industry. Saying something like numbers of people on thre slopes are 60% down on 10 years ago when the boom was doing it's thing, and resorts having a real headache. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 if they dont offer anything new and dont try to improve services then the resorts at least some will die. Link to post Share on other sites
dale#1 1 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 I believe that many resorts do try to improve services as much as they can - within the limitations they have. Link to post Share on other sites
SkiBaka 0 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 I think the larger resorts in this country have a few major problems ... and anyone who has worked in any of them would agree. Firstly, management believe guests visit their resorts to rest, eat and enjoy the onsen. Period. As an after thought, they may ski and snowboard. Secondly, the management, the people who actually make the decisions would not know the difference between a ski and snowboard. They do not ski or snowboard. Thirdly, international guests are a problem. Resorts here do not want foreign guests to visit. Their focus is domestic. Sad. " title="" src="graemlins/cry.gif" /> Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 You certainly live up to your name there.... Quote: Firstly, management believe guests visit their resorts to rest, eat and enjoy the onsen. Period. Period?! Just like you, I don't know the situation at all resorts, but I do know that the above is not true. Many resorts do push the above aspects of their resort as well as the ski/boarding aspect, but there is a demand for those things from a considerably large market. Many of those resorts are also possibly trying to attract members of the general public who may not be ski-board-baka and who want more to a vacation than just skiing or snowboarding. The hardcore skiers and boarders already know about the places they want to go in their own community. Just an idea... Quote: Thirdly, international guests are a problem. Resorts here do not want foreign guests to visit. Their focus is domestic. How is this relevant? You think the foreign market is big enough for them to want to spend on getting them to their resorts? Or you think they just don't want to make the effort? There seem to be some resorts that are making the effort - look at the ones that are doing positive things on this site, for example. ---- Link to post Share on other sites
mikazooki 0 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 just a note on the management issue: the minshuku i stayed at over new years began serving breakfast at 8am, and being a 10 minute walk form the gondola, made it almost impossible to catch first lifts. this never turned out to be a major issue as it didnt snow. but had the gods come thru, i wouldve been cursing at the timetable restraints. i think expecting an early morning feed in a ski resort town is not too much to ask. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Definitely not good, that. Never had that problem myself when I have stayed anywhere - I always seem to be able to have breakfast real early to get the first lifts.... Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Quote: Originally posted by SKI: Quote: Thirdly, international guests are a problem. Resorts here do not want foreign guests to visit. Their focus is domestic. How is this relevant? You think the foreign market is big enough for them to want to spend on getting them to their resorts? If Japan actually had a thriving tourist industry it would be relevant and the foreign market would certainly be big enough. Unfortunately hardly any foreigners visit Japan to see its pitiful concrete-ruined scenery and to enjoy its regimented breakfasts so the ski industry can't build on anything that's already in place. But anyway, plain backwardness towards use of resort terrain, and even non-smoking areas in restaurants shows that Japan is not looking anywhere outside Japan for pointers. Link to post Share on other sites
montoya 0 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Last year, I got into mountaineering and climbed Yarigatake, Kita-Hodaka, Tsubakuro, etc. I'd say about 80% of the other people I saw were +50 in age. Many were in organized tours. And many go back to the same mountains, year after year. I'm guessing I didn't see many other people in my demographic (30's) because they were too busy with work, raising families, not interested, etc. This seemed to be the same during the winter months also. Point being, there's a large population that's interested in the mountains, but apparently not in the ski-resort-gerende variety. But, I have a feeling this yama-nobori-rojin market would be interested in telemarking, snow-shoeing, etc - stuff that lends itself to the back-country. If a resort got creative enough to cater to this (eg offer avalanche-training, guides, tours) they might possibly draw on a new, potentially large cross-market demographic. Link to post Share on other sites
miteyak 0 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 I think that market will always be marginal. If my experience is anything to go by, the lack of comfortable self-catering or cheap room accomodation is the area that could be addressed. I would love to be able to arrive in Hakuba at 3 am friday night, slip into my cabin or motel room (not nec. pre-booked), and get some decent sleep. Available, noo. Try, get here by 6 or wait til tomorrow. Try, this cabin is 13,000 a night, but on weekends its 36,000. How about two person cabins at a decent rate? Surely couples are a huge market share (or could be). Hey, ski resort chappies - now skiing is no longer trendy, drop your prices to reflect the lack of demand. I think the industry was too spoilt during the bubble, and now can' re-adjust to current conditions. Link to post Share on other sites
klingon 10 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 I saw that too - its an article in some Japanese newspaper today (can't remember which). They said the numbers of snowboarders were also decreasing. Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 The biggest problem is that there are too many loss-making resorts that stay open because the banks (who won't let gaijins with jobs have credit cards) and local governments let them. They are a blight on the entire industry, to say nothing of the landscape. The second biggest problem is that too many of the people who make the decisions in the ski and tourism industry haven't got a clue, especially regarding foreign travellers. I am reliably informed that more Chinese go skiing in Korea than Japan. In terms of snow quality, mountains, and scenery, it's an absolute joke. It's like people choosing Scotland over Switzerland. The responsibility for this lies entirely with the Japanese ski and tourism industries. While Japanese pride themselves on good service and come out with the normal "customer is god" type platitudes, all too often this stops at an "irrashaimase" when you walk in and putting whatever you've bought into two bags, i.e., service on the provider's terms. I bet if mikazooks had asked for breakfast at seven, that would have been met with a "dekinai" or "dame". Saying "dekinai" is not good customer service. Link to post Share on other sites
SkiBaka 0 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Quote: You certainly live up to your name there.... Yep, 18 years working in the industry all over the world will do that .. so yes, I am crazy about skiing. Quote: How is this relevant? You think the foreign market is big enough ... Hmm, did the Japanese motor industry think like this 40 years ago ? How many people are there in Sth Korea and China again ? How many Kiwis and Aussies head to Nth America and Europe each year just to ski and snowboard ? Quote: There seem to be some resorts that are making the effort - look at the ones that are doing positive things on this site, for example A english website is a start, and the odd, token, working holiday foreign employee .. hooray !! Will this really change the future of the industry in Japan ? Will it turnaround the trend ? Simply, they need to look to successful mountains and the people working there, in all areas of the industry and bring them to Japan . . and many of these people are successful biligual Japanese nationals. People who love to ski and snowboard and have a passion for the sport. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Hurrah! Problem solved then! I just think it is easy to say these things, and the reality of the situation is more complex than you imagine. (By the way, I'm not trying to imply that all resorts are doing a really great job at keeping themselves alive) Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Quote: Originally posted by SKI: the reality of the situation is more complex than you imagine. Spoken like a true Japanese! If you have nothing to say about what is painfully obvious, obfuscate. Nobody is suggesting the 'problem is solved' - only attempting to define what the problem is. The problem isn't going to go away soon because its roots will take decades to fix. And there are certain problems of er, attitude. So, in detail if you don't mind, what is complex about the situation? Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Quote: Originally posted by SKI: I just think it is easy to say these things, and the reality of the situation is more complex than you imagine. In 1998, Happo hosted the Olympic Downhill, the highest profile event in snowsports. It doesn't get any bigger or any more international. However, the resort has no trail maps in foreign languages. The resort managers fail to see that many people do not know what 初級 means. This is not a complex problem for the resort to identify because at least one local operator has been urging the senior management to make a map every year for the last few years. Based on what friends have told me about getting club flyers made and printed, it would cost them a couple of yen per non-Japanese customer to fix. The only conclusion you can come to is that they don't understand and/or can't be bothered. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 NoFakie, yes, obviously that situation you mention above is ridiculous. (BTW, Ocean11, you still here?....I thought you'd buggered off?) Link to post Share on other sites
Teledude 0 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Maybe if there were less "resorts" there'd be better skiing? Wait, I guess not, the land would be bought up, sectioned off and made into a dump, or pachinko parlor or something. I think less "resorts" would be a good thing if they left the mountain as it was-no cutting down trees, building base lodges, etc. Learn to ski how it was meant to be-in the quiet backcountry. Free yourselves from the resorts! Link to post Share on other sites
Plucky 0 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Honestly, I'm not sure what my overall thoughts on the snow industry is out here. I have definately noticed a decline in the amount of visits over the past 3 seasons, which of course made me happy for selfish reasons. The resorts in Northern Honshu tend to be pretty simplistic with most of them being day resorts only. Appi is one notable exception, and what they've done there is pretty depressing and ugly. The building designs and the resort layout itself is just gaudy and horrible. Shizukuishi is not much better. I kind of like the setup of the Morioka region ski areas. There are pensions and hostels scattered throughout the valley and the Royal Hachimantai Hotel is the only prominent hotel in the area, and I usually stay there if doing an overnighter. It works well. My biggest complaint about the ski areas in N Japan - what in the hell were the designers smoking when they planned the runs and lifts? It's almost like they wanted to control the terrain instead of laying the runs out naturally. Biggest difference by far between N. American resorts and where I have skied over here. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 NoFakie and I have talked this topic out for a month in person. To me it comes down to service. things like getting the lifties out in the morning meeting and greeting. get lift corals set up and keep people grouped together to lesson the lines. Reduce costs buy replanning the resorts ie getting rid of side by side lifts and replacing them or removing them. The gaijin market is what you make it SKI it can be played. Look at Niseko lots of people going there from down south. Japan cant look from within. Understanding what the comsumer wants ie a pass that can be upgraded cause the resort was just to fun and you want to go back tomorrow. Grooming in this country is horrible it goes hand in hand with service. There should be no ridges. Offering romaji maps is not a bad idea I mean how many kids aged 10 can read high level kanji not many. I could go on and on. SKI I hate that line that you can change nothing that is half the problem in this country no one is looking for the answers. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 I know what you are saying, but I have heard it all before. Especially the old cliche about Japanese management never listening, blah blah. It is just so easy to critisize an organisation from the outside without knowing much about it or the circumstances in which it operates - any fool can do that. And it's almost impossible for them (or anyone trying to) defend against that oh-so-easy "know-it-all, I could do so much better" argument. Quote: SKI I hate that line that you can change nothing that is half the problem in this country no one is looking for the answers. I believe that things can change. And I don't believe that in this country no-one is looking for answers. That is just false. We all have ideas. I have even presented some of my thoughts and ideas to a few resorts myself (in Japanese) to give them some of my ideas. My Japanese friends and I sat down, came up with our ideas and made a simple presentation, sent it to some of our favorite resorts. We got a positive response, and a few of those ideas have even actually been put into effect. What have you (ie. anyone else who is always moaning so much) done? ---Complained on an internet forum, in English? ---Been to resorts and happily done things that will annoy them? (ie out of bounds, ducking ropes, etc etc)....surely a great way to get their positive attention. I suspect that you have done nothing positive. Link to post Share on other sites
Plucky 0 Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 I gave a beer to the top lift operator at Hachimantai Forest last year. That was positive. At least he seemed appreciative. They might as well do something while sitting on their assess all day, and drinking a few beers is as good as anything else Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 SKI Im good and ready to go work for a ski hill as a manger of sorts. This is what I went to school for. After working and living here for over 5 years and been in and out for 8 I can say with 100% that people here can not find answers for crap. Just look at the sad state of these kozumi reforms, reforms come from with-in not ie smaller government that doesnt except a pay raise which they did again this year. Ski resorts here when I tell the lifties to get out there and organize a liftline they look at me like Im stupid. I have wrote comments before to resorts with my wife good ones but they are never used. Ducking ropes has nothing to do with service which we all know resorts in this country lack. Does my ducking a rope affect that ridge in the middle of the course? that ridge that the groomer couldnt a rats butt about? no. I have no problems ski if your going to do the same thing with your buddies again giving you some ideas to present to resorts if your keen on that type of thing. Knowing hakuba and taking to the locals some of the tour operators are not happy ie lets get internationlized but the resorts are way to slow or who knows. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Quote: SKI Im good and ready to go work for a ski hill as a manger of sorts. This is what I went to school for. After working and living here for over 5 years and been in and out for 8 I can say with 100% that people here can not find answers for crap. Well, I just disagree. I think that getting rid of that cliched way of thinking might be a good start to communicating with resorts and starting a positive dialogue. Quote: Ski resorts here when I tell the lifties to get out there and organize a liftline they look at me like Im stupid. I have wrote comments before to resorts with my wife good ones but they are never used. Good for you. As I said, some of our ideas were implemented. As has been said, changes take time. Did you follow up on your initial comments, did you have a dialogue with the resort,....? Quote: Ducking ropes has nothing to do with service which we all know resorts in this country lack. Does my ducking a rope affect that ridge in the middle of the course? that ridge that the groomer couldnt a rats butt about? no. Most probably, no. But that is not the issue here.... Quote: I have no problems ski if your going to do the same thing with your buddies again giving you some ideas to present to resorts if your keen on that type of thing. Gee, thanks for not having a problem with my actions. ( ). If you are so determined to see change, why don't you put in a concerted - positive - effort yourself? Link to post Share on other sites
SkiBaka 0 Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Quote: It is just so easy to critisize an organisation from the outside without knowing much about it or the circumstances in which it operates - any fool can do that... I'll make it simple for you SKI. Lift tickets purchased in this country for the last 12 consecutive years has declined. FACT Lift tickets purchased in US, Europe, Canada, Australia in the last 12 consecutive years has increased. FACT SKI, given the quality of the snow, the avaliable ski hills close to billions of people in this country, how would you rate management in this industry ? Frankly, their performance is criminal. Area management are rotten to the core. Collectively they all should bend over there swords. "... so easy to criticise ..." SKI please tell me where the answers maybe found to make the industry turnaround ? Blind Freddie can see it .. Link to post Share on other sites
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