The bomb

[Ocean11 0]

> I think softening of attitudes towards the brutalities conducted by the Axis powers is disgusting

 

I thought that the difference between those beastly Axis brutes and us was that they cruelly bombed and massacred civilians and we didn't. Or am I confused on that point? Just like we're killing Iraqis now to save them because evil Saddam was killing them before. Or am I being limp-wristed here?

[js 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:
> I think softening of attitudes towards the brutalities conducted by the Axis powers is disgusting

I thought that the difference between those beastly Axis brutes and us was that they cruelly bombed and massacred civilians and we didn't. Or am I confused on that point? Just like we're killing Iraqis now to save them because evil Saddam was killing them before. Or am I being limp-wristed here?

Not gonna get into an Iraq discussion with you because we have some similar opinions there.

In the case of WW2 - different time and vastly different scenario.

Would it be acceptable today? Given sixish years of continual world war, yes, I believe it would be so in the end.

[Ocean11 0]

Yeah, but you're ignoring what the professional military at the time were saying - it wasn't necessary. Truman (who was possibly more simple minded than Bush II), and Churchill (who lost us our Empire through his warmongering, and who lied about it afterwards) were pushing for use of the bomb to expand Western power.

 

I think you're making some unquestioned assumptions about the validity of unconditional surrender too - a piece of pure bullshit bravado that in itself cost thousands of lives, and set up the wholly illusiory "a million casualties in the invasion of Japan vs. atom bombs for saving lives" dichotomy. And there isn't even any proof that the bombs ended the war.

[soubriquet 0]

In my home, the opinion is that the US knew that the war was lost, and the bombs were dropped as an experiment, or out of revenge. Just reporting: I see things a little less clearly.

 

Here's one for the conspiracy theorists. The bombs were dropped as a warning to the Soviet Union, and Japan was a convenient theatre?

 

When my father-out-law was called up, he expected to die, so he took a trip to Tokyo to see the lights and get laid. When he got to Manchuria, his main aim was to stay alive. Two weeks after the end of the war he was captured by the Russians (many were shot), and went on to spend three years in a Siberian slave camp.

 

I've talked and worked with many people from both sides, these people are my parents generation. I have come to believe that everyone, win or lose, is a victim during war. My father had a "good" war. He came back physically in one piece, but he was like a shell, with nothing inside him, completely emotionally closed off. I never once had a conversation with him, or any meaningful interaction.

[js 0]

O11 - you seem to assume that everyone on both sides are intelligent, altruistic, morally upright, peace loving individuals.

 

If you reckon they are – dream on. If you don’t, well, that’s why the war got down to A-bomb dropping – to win the war, prove a point, show other potential foes, test a new toy, all the above.

 

Besides, nobody is going to point the guilty finger at any Allied country annihilating an enemy who was responsible for causing so much killing in the name of military expansion.

 

An age old point, in vanquishing an enemy, do you annihilate them (prudent if you don’t want them to rearm and try it again), simply push them to their own corner of the globe (never proven to work), sign a treaty and risk a covert attack at some other time – it’s not that black and white of course.

 

Soub. - as for the scars of war – Uncle was a Japanese POW, Fathers battalion was all but wiped out by fighting and being POW’s of the same – so can understand the demons some people may suffer. (Luckily, both survived the war.)

 

To reiterate – the Axis powers (Germany, Japan, Italy and Vichy French) were the instigators, so shouldn’t expect mercy after all the atrocities and needless slaughter. Admittedly, I believe in severe retribution for countries that break the peace.

[Ocean11 0]

> O11 - you seem to assume that everyone on both sides are intelligent, altruistic, morally upright, peace loving individuals.

 

No I don't. Eisenhower was to some extent all of that, and to some extent not. He was as well acquainted with the horrors of war as any of your relatives. And he, and other generals thought it wasn't necessary.

 

According to your way of thinking the Iraqis will never have any peace until they have invaded the US, bombed the cities flat, and hanged a good number of politicians and generals... What applied then still applies now.

[sunrise 0]

Moving a little off topic here, but still on the topic of radiation; an article called:

 

Depleted Uranium: The Trojan Horse of Nuclear War

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=MOR20040708&articleId=709

 

Scary stuff, whatever one may believe about the motivations for using DU..... we might all be inhaling it before too long as it travels around the planet....

[slow 0]

Just in case you never read Peace Declaration by Mayors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

--------------------------------------------

Today the bells of Nagasaki echo in the sky, marking 60 years since the atomic bombing. At 11:02 a.m. on August 9, 1945, a single atomic bomb was dropped from an American warplane, exploding in this same sky above us, instantly destroying the city of Nagasaki. Some 74,000 people were killed, and another 75,000 wounded. Some of the victims never knew what happened. Others pleaded for water as death overtook them. Children, so burned and blackened that they could not even cry out, lay with their eyes closed. Those people who narrowly survived were afflicted with deep physical and mental wounds that could never be healed. They continue to suffer from the after-effects of the bomb, living in fear of death.

　

To the leaders of the nuclear weapons states: Nuclear weapons must never be used for any reason whatsoever. This we know from painful experience. For sixty years we have repeated our plea, “No more Hiroshima! No more Nagasaki!” International society has also been exerting effort for the prohibition of nuclear weapons tests and the establishment of nuclear-weapon-free zones. In 2000, the nuclear weapons states themselves promised an “unequivocal undertaking” for the “elimination of their nuclear arsenals.”

　

Nevertheless, at the end of the Review Conference of the Parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons held at United Nations headquarters in May of this year, no progress was achieved. The nuclear weapons states, and the United States of America in particular, have ignored their international commitments, and have made no change in their unyielding stance on nuclear deterrence. We strongly resent the trampling of the hopes of the world’s people.

　

To the citizens of the United States of America: We understand your anger and anxiety over the memories of the horror of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Yet, is your security actually enhanced by your government’s policies of maintaining 10,000 nuclear weapons, of carrying out repeated sub-critical nuclear tests, and of pursuing the development of new “mini” nuclear weapons? We are confident that the vast majority of you desire in your hearts the elimination of nuclear arms. May you join hands with the people of the world who share that same desire, and work together for a peaceful planet free from nuclear weapons.

 

 

To the government of Japan: Our nation deeply regrets the last war, and our government has supposedly resolved not to engage in actions that might lead to the tragedy of war again. The peaceful ideals of our constitution must be upheld, and the threefold non-nuclear principle of neither possessing, manufacturing, nor allowing nuclear arms within our borders must be enacted into law without delay. The efforts of concerned countries for nuclear disarmament on the Korean peninsula, combined with the concomitant results of the threefold non-nuclear principle, will pave the way for a Northeast Asia nuclear-weapon-free zone. We urge you to adopt a stance that does not rely upon the “nuclear umbrella,” and to take a leading role in nuclear abolition.

 

 

We would also point out that the atomic bomb survivors have become quite elderly. We further call upon the Japanese government to provide greater assistance to those who continue to suffer from the mental anguish caused by the bombing, and to extend sufficient aid to survivors who now reside overseas.

 

Here in Nagasaki, many young people are learning about the atomic bombing and about peace, and are engaged in activities that they themselves have originated. To our young people: Remember always the miserable deaths of the atomic bomb victims. We ask each of you to earnestly study history and to consider the importance of peace and the sanctity of life. The citizens of Nagasaki stand behind your efforts. May you join hands with the world’s citizens and NGOs, that the bells of peace will ring loud and clear in the sky over Nagasaki.

 

Today, as we mark 60 years since the atomic bombing, we pray for the repose of the souls of those who died, even as we declare our commitment, together with Hiroshima, never to abandon our efforts for the elimination of nuclear weapons and the establishment of lasting world peace.

 

August 9, 2005

Iccho Itoh, Mayor of Nagasaki

 

--------------------------------------------

HIROSHIMA PEACE DECLARATION August 6, 2005

This August 6, the 60th anniversary of the atomic bombing, is a moment of shared lamentation in which more than 300 thousand souls of A-bomb victims and those who remain behind transcend the boundary between life and death to remember that day. It is also a time of inheritance, of awakening, and of commitment, in which we inherit the commitment of the hibakusha to the abolition of nuclear weapons and realization of genuine world peace, awaken to our individual responsibilities, and recommit ourselves to take action. This new commitment, building on the desires of all war victims and the millions around the world who are sharing this moment, is creating a harmony that is enveloping our planet.

 

The keynote of this harmony is the hibakusha warning, "No one else should ever suffer as we did," along with the cornerstone of all religions and bodies of law, "Thou shalt not kill." Our sacred obligation to future generations is to establish this axiom, especially its corollary, "Thou shalt not kill children," as the highest priority for the human race across all nations and religions. The International Court of Justice advisory opinion issued nine years ago was a vital step toward fulfilling this obligation, and the Japanese Constitution, which embodies this axiom forever as the sovereign will of a nation, should be a guiding light for the world in the 21st century.

 

Unfortunately, the Review Conference of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty this past May left no doubt that the U.S., Russia, U.K., France, China, India, Pakistan, North Korea and a few other nations wishing to become nuclear-weapon states are ignoring the majority voices of the people and governments of the world, thereby jeopardizing human survival.

 

Based on the dogma "Might is right," these countries have formed their own "nuclear club," the admission requirement being possession of nuclear weapons. Through the media, they have long repeated the incantation, "Nuclear weapons protect you." With no means of rebuttal, many people worldwide have succumbed to the feeling that "There is nothing we can do." Within the United Nations, nuclear club members use their veto power to override the global majority and pursue their selfish objectives.

 

To break out of this situation, Mayors for Peace, with more than 1,080 member cities, is currently holding its sixth General Conference in Hiroshima, where we are revising the Emergency Campaign to Ban Nuclear Weapons launched two years ago. The primary objective is to produce an action plan that will further expand the circle of cooperation formed by the U.S. Conference of Mayors, the European Parliament, International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War and other international NGOs, organizations and individuals worldwide, and will encourage all world citizens to awaken to their own responsibilities with a sense of urgency, "as if the entire world rests on their shoulders alone," and work with new commitment to abolish nuclear weapons.

 

To these ends and to ensure that the will of the majority is reflected at the UN, we propose that the First Committee of the UN General Assembly, which will meet in October, establish a special committee to deliberate and plan for the achievement and maintenance of a nuclear-weapon-free world. Such a committee is needed because the Conference on Disarmament in Geneva and the NPT Review Conference in New York have failed due to a "consensus rule" that gives a veto to every country.

 

We expect that the General Assembly will then act on the recommendations from this special committee, adopting by the year 2010 specific steps leading toward the elimination of nuclear weapons by 2020.

 

Meanwhile, we hereby declare the 369 days from today until August 9, 2006, a "Year of Inheritance, Awakening and Commitment." During this Year, the Mayors for Peace, working with nations, NGOs and the vast majority of the world's people, will launch a great diversity of campaigns for nuclear weapons abolition in numerous cities throughout the world.

 

We expect the Japanese government to respect the voice of the world's cities and work energetically in the First Committee and the General Assembly to ensure that the abolition of nuclear weapons is achieved by the will of the majority.

 

Furthermore, we request that the Japanese government provide the warm, humanitarian support appropriate to the needs of all the aging hibakusha, including those living abroad and those exposed in areas affected by the black rain.

 

On this, the sixtieth anniversary of the atomic bombing, we seek to comfort the souls of all its victims by declaring that we humbly reaffirm our responsibility never to "repeat the evil." "Please rest peacefully; for we will not repeat the evil."

 

Tadatoshi Akiba Mayor The City of Hiroshima

[soubriquet 0]

Thanks for that.

[pie-eater 207]

I wonder what most Japanese would think if they knew about the "VJ Day" celebrations that go on every summer to celebrate victory over Japan. Is that name just a UK thing or in other countries too? I'm sure there could be a better and perhaps a little more sensitive name for it going into the future than VJ Day.

[js 0]

O11: You seem to miss the point – after six years of world war (not just a short term localised conflict), millions dead because three nations had expansionist ideas to divvy the world up into nice little bits to meet their particular goals, and mass genocide on three fronts, obviously necessitated more than just ‘Well chums, looks like you’ve lost, how about we shake hands and call it even – see you in the UN bar to discuss old times’ - just doesn’t cut it somehow.

 

(The idea of reparations alone wasn’t a good alternative either – refer to WW1 and Hitlers background for that.)

 

Besides the ‘get even’ factors, the dropping of two bombs to, in part, signify a warning that such exploits will not be tolerated in the future, seemed to make the point pretty well – to date, it has acted as a reasonable deterrent to mass conflict.

 

As for your continual Iraq references – you are drawing a very long and shaky bow to compare the two conflicts, but I understand your grievances.

 

Here’s some feedback on Iraq: up until recently, I worked with an Iraqi lady whose family still reside in Bagdad – she and her husband did postal votes in the election for the President.

 

Along with other office colleagues, we often asked her opinion of the war et al. They are just a rather typical bunch of non-uber religious Islamics (e.g. she dresses in western clothes – pretty good bod too in those tight jeans and tops!).

 

Her relo’s back home and she all agree with the invasion – that is, they understand the major reason was oil, etc, but the associated ousting of Maddas (Saddam) was most welcomed by all and sundry. They understand the problems being experienced by both sides - innocents being killed, fundamentalists trying to take over, etc, etc but think the bringing of some sort of democratic government is worth it.

 

So, when a local advises they don’t mind the shite because it’s offset by the prospects of a bright future, we should listen.

 

Sunrise: That information on depleted uranium was VERY worrying! As if the Yanks need more people to hate them than already do, sheez!!

 

History shows thus:

 

Egyptian Empire – architecture, science.

The Greek Empire – democracy, medicine, philosophy, etc.

The Roman Empire – organised government, etc.

British Empire – economics, industry, etc.

US Empire – space exploration, privatised government, and irradiation.

 

Pie-Eater: ‘I'm sure there could be a better and perhaps a little more sensitive name for it going into the future than VJ Day.’

 

Why?? In the UK they still refer to VE-day and a whole lot of other historic battles dating back centuries.

 

In the Pacific, we refer to VJ-day, which is as succinct as it gets because all the nations in our hemisphere were affected by their regime.

 

Softening of such things is folly.

 

As an alternative, perhaps we should also commemorate the good things we’ve accomplished since – that would show that out of conflict we can move forward and prosper together.

[Ocean11 0]

> Besides the ‘get even’ factors,

 

Punitive destruction of cities is a war crime.

 

> the dropping of two bombs to, in part, signify a warning that such exploits will not be tolerated in the future

 

Although dropping of atom bombs will be, presumably.

 

> seemed to make the point pretty well – to date, it has acted as a reasonable deterrent to mass conflict.

 

Not really. The Cold War was a mass conflict that crippled worldwide development, spawned mass destruction through small and proxy wars, and has resulted in the development of a superpower that encourages other countries to develop nuclear weapons to defend against the nuclear and conventional threats it continually poses.

 

SubZero, when you talk about 'not softening', what you're actually talking about is stubbornly maintaining a grossly hypocritical and anti-historical viewpoint. And just because some Iraqis agree with the illegal invasion of their country doesn't make it any less illegal or more right.

[js 0]

RE: ‘Punitive destruction of cities is a war crime.’

 

In a WW2 context, it all depends on your stance at the time. One faction said it was necessary, the other said it wasn’t. Obviously communications in that era weren’t advanced, so PERHAPS the Japanese government meant to surrender, but the message didn’t get out. MAYBE the opposite occurred and they had no intention to surrender. In the latter case, the bomb/s were necessary to prevent similar mass slaughters as those at the D-Day landings and Pacific island beach heads – bearing in mind that saturation bombing of cities in Japan aka London, etc would’ve been just as destructive notwithstanding the known after effects of radiation and fallout.

 

It’d be a sour coincidence if they did mean to surrender and the message didn’t get out in time – parallels to the diplomatically mistimed attack on Peal Harbour.

 

In a contemporary context however, I agree with your comment. Unfortunately, warfare is never that clear when other issues become apparent, like hiding military targets within civilian populations, etc.

 

 

RE: ‘The Cold War was a mass conflict that crippled worldwide development, spawned mass destruction through small and proxy wars, and has resulted in the development of a superpower that encourages other countries to develop nuclear weapons to defend against the nuclear and conventional threats it continually poses.’

 

Agreed, but I’d stop short of exaggerating circumstances like ‘crippled worldwide development’ – post war saw huge advancements in all facets of society, both sides of the divide. In some ways it was the Second Renaissance: advancements in philosophy, science, etc.

 

It’s just very sad it took a war to achieve that step in our evolution.

 

 

RE: ‘SubZero, when you talk about 'not softening', what you're actually talking about is stubbornly maintaining a grossly hypocritical and anti-historical viewpoint. And just because some Iraqis agree with the illegal invasion of their country doesn't make it any less illegal or more right.

 

What I meant about ‘not softening’ was not allowing future generations to forget by, for example, having Remembrance Days like VE & VJ day.

 

Obviously there are innocent casualties on both sides, however, these two terms denote one special point, we weren’t the aggressors in either case.

 

Additionally, it’s anything but anti-historical – it’s fact, plain and clear. (I hope your not one of those people who deny the Holocaust or the foul deeds done to many POW’s?!)

 

Again, agreed, an illegal invasion is just that. I suppose it’s just fortunate that in this particular instance the spin-off was a benefit to most of the Iraqi’s – bitter as it may be for some of them.

 

As obvious s it may seem, what concerns me most is that we’re quick to lubricate the heals of dictators in oil bearing nations, but turn a blind eye to countries that don’t have oil and promote genocide e.g. most of the Central and West African nations.

 

Our butts are gonna get bitten eventually for such unworthy actions, and corresponding lack of worthy actions.

[pie-eater 207]

I just think the annual to some extent sounds like hate-Japan campaign that there is on the media in the UK is unfortunate. Young people grow up listening to it and I think it could be done in a better way.

 

But I'm on holiday now, so I might have more ideas when I'm back in Japan.

[2pints-mate 0]

There's a whole lot of stuff on the tv and media here about VJ now... tomorrow? That old famous clip of the skeleton-like guys walking past the hut and the signing of the surrender.

 

On a different note, also an article in the SUnday Times today saying that some plans for an attack on US cities and London are gearing up, before September 19th, commercial fuel tankers to get driven into fuel stations aiming to "destroy the US economy". Or something. (How do they get all this, without actually being able to do anything about it?)

[Weegeoff 0]

Two bombs were dropped Because That is all they had at the time. If they had made more. How many would they have dropped? 3.4 .5.6. Imagine the unimaginable.

Two days to surrender with bad communications before the second one was dropped. How long would they have waited before Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6. or however many they had made were dropped

I don,t like to think about it.

[sanjo 2]

Anyone know the real story about the targets? People here in Niigata have told me that Niigata was one of the first targets, but the weather ruled it out.....

[kintaro 0]

Sendai says the same...

[joshnii 2]

I heard Niigata was going to be the "next" target, but due to the weather Nagasaki got it.