Sept 11th - one year anniversayr

[TeleSkier 0]

Just curious what people are thinking about tomorrow being the one year anniversary of the Sept 11th attacks. How the world has changed in the last year. Do you think the world is heading in the right direction. Should get some interesting results with the diverse crowd on this forum. Maybe not the best forum for this discussion but I'm sure it has affected all of our lives over this last year.

[MikeD 0]

I was in New York when it happened and I was supposed to fly back that day to Seattle. It was strange. All of my friends wanted to go see it and it pissed me off because I never want to be an average curious idiot who just get's in the way. And I also was kind of put off by the vigils at the site doing nothing but satisfying American people's addiction to sensationalistic voyerism. But later I realized that all that shit was bringing people together in a positive way and that was pretty great because that's the whole point of life. So I went in to town and I am glad that is an experience I will have forever. But let me tell you how HAPPY I am to be in Japan because I have greived and now it's time to be happy and focus on kicking ass in the future. Don't mean to be callous but I hate that "never forget" campain going on. First my government tells me I should go and consume immediately (literally, for all those who don't know; GB told the American public to keep spending(I live amongst retards))after it happens and now they are telling me how to think. America is fu&%ed up and the worse part is they don't know it. Not that Japan is not fu*&ed up on that level, but I'm not invested here so it doesn't get under my skin. Thanks for the opportunity to spout off Teleskier!!!

[Guest]

Just hoping nothing else will happen.

[scouser 4]

One can only hope.

 

I just found this on Fox News:

Coupled with increased "background chatter" that the agencies have been picking up in the past week, analysts told Fox News that the situation looks eerily similar to Sept. 10 of last year.

 

...so does that mean that last Sept 10th they were on alert then?

[miteyak 0]

Yes, Americans sure seem to be pulling together, and are now more consolidated against the rest of the world than ever before. Sept 11th was a tragedy, but, unfortunately, the event and suffering no more than many countries have been living with for decades. The event should have awoken a feeling of empathy for other suffering countries, but instead created a almost embarrasing wound licking session, followed by an international tantrum. Now Americans want to remember the fateful day forever, ensuring that the awesume power of Bin Laden is never forgotten.

 

My sympathy would be greater if GB hadn't gone out of his way in the last year to scupper the chances of a better world, and used the incident as an excuse to consolidate American power and assets abroad.

 

I'm deeply sorry for all Americans who suffered on sept 11, but wonder how many Americans are sorry for the pain and suffering caused by terrorism in other countries.

 

An American friend of mine told me after sept 11, that I had no idea how I would feel if terrorists attacked England...hmmm

 

And to think the twin towers may even have held a (legal) fund raiser...

[NoFakie 45]

Nice comments MikeD

 

After the Great Hanshin Earthquake, I sometimes heard people who hadn't been there say "I'd like to experience an earthquake", as if it had all been some kind of action movie.

 

Post 9/11, many Americans seemed to be genuinely concerned about the motives behind the attack. Unfortunately, such voices were given short shrift and the agenda was all-too quickly and predictably steered away from the causes of anti-US sentiment to self-righteous right-wing breast beating. International law was completely ignored. Afghanistan was willing to cooperate, but was still invaded, resulting in the deaths of more civilians than the 9/11 atrocities themselves. Now we face a war against Iraq because "they may have some nasty weapons". With Israel sitting there with its large nuclear arsenal, its billions of US aid, and a bellicose leader who is himself guilty of several terrorist atrocities, the words "total hypocrisy" do spring to mind.

 

With Britain merrily tagging the US line at Blair's if not the public's behest, it's less stressful, shall we say, for me to be away.

 

As for Scouser's question, it was recently reported that the US only had 14 readily armed planes to defend the entire country on Sep 11, 2001. Had more airliners been hijacked, the USAF would quite possibly have had to bring them down by ramming them with fighters. This was reported as "kamikaze-style" and pilots were asked if they would have been prepared to do it, though with ejector seats I suppose it mightn't have been necessary.

[Yuki's Passion 1]

Is the world heading in the right direction? Cant say I think so. What happened was terrible, but I have to honestly say it was brought about by America's foreign policy. And, now Bush is using 9/11 as a way to reshape the country and start wars all over the world. He has combined different agencies into one, said youre either with us or against us, labeled certain countries "axis of evil," and now threatens to invade Iraq.

 

I just read today that he is finally going to the U.N. to push his case, although its nothing more than a formality and would attack whether he has approval from the U.N. and International community or not. I also read that the American public support for attacking Iraq is at the lowest since 9/11. Thank God for that. But, knowing the whitehouse, itll find some means to get the support it needs to start bombing somewhere, and if its not soon theyll probably pencil it in for next year... a war before election time is always good for approval ratings, right?

[Ocean11 0]

The US suffered an unprovoked attack by ignorant, barbaric morons. You wouldn't give them the time of day if you met them. The results of these attacks have hurt the world economy and affected untold millions of people, none of them beneficially - not a single person.

 

One of the benefits to have come out of this is that people are at last beginning to understand what 'the muslim world' is like. I learnt a bit about this living in Rusholme, Manchester, amidst the English traitors who wanted Salman Rushdie's hide simply for writing a very abstruse book. These people want to steal your freedom, and replace it with nothing worth having. What you have now may not be great, but it's way better than what they're offering.

 

Personally, I'm not responsible for how people in Afghanistan have chosen to live these many a year. I feel pity for them, but if they allow murderous swine to live uncontrolled amongst them and to 'lead' them, then they will have to pay the consequences at some point. Ditto the Iraqis.

 

What concerns me most is that our freedom is not in any way further limited by our response to these outrages. We must be viligant against the moves of our governments, and prevent them from hurting our interests while they go about ensuring our defence. That's the way it is in democracies.

 

Another potential benefit of this is the discussion of 'regime change'. Actually, I'm all for it in principle. But why limit it to Iraq? Why not Kuwait too (we had a good opportunity which we passed up), Saudi Arabia, China, Cuba, oh, the list goes on? I can't stand the hypocrisy that makes us friends with China but not Iraq. It is up to us to make our views known about how we implement 'regime change', what improvements we want to see, how many casualties on either side we'll accept to see it through.

 

I hope the US learns the lessons of 9/11 and deals with the consequences in a balanced and democratic way. I don't think they're doing brilliantly, but nor are they doing too badly at the moment...

[mogski 0]

Oil.

[gerrard 0]

The word anniversary seems so celebratory don't you think?

[Ocean11 0]

Yeah, People's Poet, I'm already bored of you appending 'Marrow' to these threads. Do you think that's clever or funny or something?

 

-----

 

Go and have a look at how Yahoo are wallowing in the anniversary. Now THAT's unnecessary.

[MikeD 0]

Nice response miteyak, NoFakie and Yuki's passion! The ignorance in not understanding GB's motives is our problem. He is using this situation to aid his agenda which is disguised as the work of a hero. George Bush is just as much a part of "the axis of evil" as the rest of the world leaders. GB wants money to go to the military and he is using the inertia of Sep. 11th to keep it going with Iraq. He still has not given anybody a good enough reason to attack. I am so happy to see smart responses to this issue. When dialogue like this presents itself I am amazed at how many people bust out progressive answers. Together our voices will be heard. Ocean11... I agree we should be more involved in our government's decision making process but I think one of the biggest problems facing our world is not understanding that the extremist minority does not represent the majority. Unfortunately we view the "muslim world" as the image the propaganda box(TV) shows us. As long as we don't see them as loving people with real emotions and families we can feel good about bombing the shit out of them and think they should suffer as a people because of what their government and extremists are forcing upon them. The bottom line is we have been raping other countries so we can live like kings and some people got pissed and blew our shit up. Fortunately for GB we don't agree with their suppressive societal views so he can focus on that and gain our support for kicking their ass' back. But we kicked their ass first. And we ignored all of the horror that the people have endured until we had a financial stake in it. GB is just as evil as Bin Laden. They both murder innocent people and justify it. OOH that will piss some people off. But it's true. I honestly think the Muslim religion is a nightmare and regressive as hell and the world would be a much better place without it, but it is no reason to hate, kill and be ignorant to their plight as a people given their history and circumstances. We only hate what we do not understand. Only when we understand it can we change it. It's refreshing to see the majority understand.

[MikeD 0]

Re. Yahoo

No shit ocean. That makes me sick. What about all the other lives? We are so conceited.

[grungy-gonads 54]

Yeah great thread. I only wish I could add something of interest to whats already been said.

 

RE Yahoo. That kind of stuff makes me sick. As does Fox News - have you SEEN that channel? Does it grate Americans too?

[TeleSkier 0]

I have some interesting views on many of the idealistic comments here and I am sure this is going to stir the coals up some.

 

- As for clumping GB in there with Bin Laden as being equally as bad I recommend that you get your head checked. How can you even put them in the same catagory. The attacks on the World Trade Centers were unprovoked...Do you think the US was unprovoked in attacking Afghanistan? I don't think so...

- Gulf War - The US went in there to get Iraq out of Kuwait who is one of our allies. Really don't think that the US and GB were the aggressors on that one. On another note - don't you think that US presence stopped Iraq from invading Saudi Arabia. I sure think so - how convient for Saudi Arabia to have this selective memory and quickly forgetting about that. Connections to Bin Laden and other terrorist countries for Saudi - pretty much proven on that point.

- WWII - US was not involved in this bad boy until Dec 7th when an unprovoked attack got them directly involved.

 

- So what do you think? Do you think that most of the people in Iraq like Saddam. What would it be like if this madman has nuclear capabilities. This guy used chemical weapons on his own countrymen - he is crazy. I wish that the world was a much simplier place where everyone gets along, but it isn't. Face the facts and reality. Saying that FoxNews is all screwed up - give me a break. Why is the US and GB standing up to these terrorists - becuase we believe in our way of life and ideals and do not want them infringed upon. Kind of nice to have these freedoms and not be ruled by dictatorships....I could go on and on....

[grungy-gonads 54]

 Quote:

Saying that FoxNews is all screwed up - give me a break.

I don't know if I'd put it as being screwed up, but for a channel that pushes itself as "fair and balanced", it's a joke.

Come on. I just can't take it seriously when they have a flag waving constantly at the top of the screen. For over a year now!

[This message has been edited by grungy-gonads (edited 12 September 2002).]

[Ocean11 0]

A few more comments,

 

> (GB) still has not given anybody a good enough reason to attack (Iraq).

- I think he's given reason enough. Now it's a matter of building a consensus. I hope he doesn't proceed until he's built it though.

 

 

> I am amazed at how many people bust out progressive answers.

- Yeah, we got the vocab.

 

 

> I think one of the biggest problems facing our world is not understanding that the extremist minority does not represent the majority.

- That's right. Most people are genuinely offended when their country is attacked without reason. Polls suggest that the majority are interested in raking out some of the more poisonous regimes, if sufficient moral justification can be demonstrated and consensus found. Let's just hope the usual selectivity that's applied is revealed for the hypocrisy it is.

 

 

> Unfortunately we view the "muslim world" as the image the propaganda box(TV) shows us.

- We? Who? Kindly speak for yourself. Actually though, most TV takes the attitude that although these countries may have their issues, Islam is religion of peace etc. etc.

 

 

> As long as we don't see them as loving people with real emotions and families we can feel good about bombing the shit out of them and think they should suffer as a people because of what their government and extremists are forcing upon them.

- The people that perpetrated the terror were not 'loving people with real emotions', in case you hadn't noticed. They were fanatics who lived amongst their victims, totally failed to see the goodness in their victim's society and learn from it. And in the countries where these people come from, but most especially in Iraq, civil society (including education) has been so far eliminated and subordinated to the 'agendas' of their tyrants, that it is valid to ask whether people there are capable of experiencing 'real emotion' any more (other than fear). Indeed, honest Arab students of the region have been known to ask this question themselves.

 

 

> The bottom line is we have been raping other countries so we can live like kings and some people got pissed and blew our shit up.

- Again, please speak for yourself. That should be 'I have been raping other countries...', and if that then sounds a bit melodramatic, ask yourself why.

 

 

> GB is just as evil as Bin Laden. They both murder innocent people and justify it.

- Bush was elected by a small majority of his countrymen, a point that should never be overlooked.

 

 

> I honestly think the Muslim religion is a nightmare and regressive as hell and the world would be a much better place without it, but it is no reason to hate, kill and be ignorant to their plight as a people given their history and circumstances.

- Maybe not, but it's a good reason to find robust defenses against it. We should also perhaps be aware that their choice of religion has doomed them to be weak countries, with no real sovereignty to speak of, that were crocks before imperialism visited them and that are still crocks now, well after imperialism has left. How many Afghans were dying under the Taliban and their predecessor, and_their_predecessor?

 

 

> We only hate what we do not understand.

- Au contraire, it is familiarity that breeds contempt. I didn't hate the Rushdie haters before I spoke to some of them, but once I had, I had nothing but contempt for them, and heartily wished them out of my society.

 

Respectfully, O11

[talisker 0]

I think we have to accept the fact that every country is guilty of hypocrisy. Every country has to think of self interest as well as world responsibilities. 9/11 has provided a forum for people like us to talk about where we are going and what kind of future we want.

 

A little positive thinking is whats needed.....and some powder.....

[miteyak 0]

The US has had many chances in the last year to prove it's interested in aiding the rest of the world in its fight against terror (hunger, poverty, sickness, political tyranny, human rights...) but has only really shown interest in fighting it's own war.

 

Want an excuse to go into Iraq, easy, the leader is wanted for war crimes, go in and arrest him. Let's get some power behind international law...oh, but wait, the US wants to judge, but not be judged.

 

As soon as the US joins the international community, applies the same rights and laws to all nations and peoples as it does to itself, then other nations will take it seriously as a moral and intellectual equal in the world, and not just cower beneath its military might

 

As for muslims, I've lived and traveled in muslim countries. Their kindness and generosity, (not to mention social condition vis-a-vis their poverty) is unequalled, due mostly to their adherence to Islamic law. Let's not confuse religion with political agenda...rife in many developing nations and ...the US

 

Well, I've got to get back to work, huge topic, could and does fill many books.

[miteyak 0]

Oh, just for the record, GB was elected by a minority of his countrypersons.

[frannyo 2]

 Quote:

GB was elected by a minority of his countrypersons

.....who in turn were a minority and didn't have much choice......

[Guest]

Well. what an interesting topic.... good to see some amazing views and opinions coming from fellow skiers and snowboarders!

 

firstly i would like to send my condolences to the victims and families of S11*

 

first of all, i dont buy the whole event of S11. yeah sure it happened, and a whole lot of people died needlessly.

 

but the way that the american media has blown the whole event out of proportion does not surprise me in the least! we somehow have forgotten about the 36000 CHILREN (alone) that die in third world countries EACH DAY!! this seems like a drop in the ocean compared to the events of S11 doesnt it..... probably only because CNN couldnt sensationalise the events in in which these children died.

 

which leads me to my next point.... surely there must have been more than 2800 people in those two buildings..... i think this is a bad case of playing down-propaganda.

 

i am a bit of a conspirator. i am convinced that we have not seen all that happened that day. yeah sure we have been bomarded with images of NY and the towers, but what about the footage of the pentagon mr president?? you cant tell me that a place(the pentagon) with just as bigger tourist signifigance as the twin towers didnt have at least 10 or so tourist video cameras on the lawn outside the pentagon on an idle tues morning at 09.30..... c'mon!!! where is the footage??

 

also... i ask this question which may be linked to the lack of footage from the pentagon. There was around 1hr 30min from when the first plane diverted from course to when the last plane ditched into the ground...... dont you think the head of defence would get just a little edgey and send just a few F16's up to escort an otherwise offcourse passenger jet... after all it only takes around 3 min for an F16 to take off from sea level and rise to 60000 feet!!! why havent we seen footage of that??

 

is it because you dont want us to see it? or is it because the CIA is still pouring through all the evidence against USAma bin laden??

 

which brings me to another point!

 

how soft are the yanks... post-poning

release of any movies that might have even the smallest amount of footage of a tower/new york/or a plane in it. deal with it.

 

why is it that we have to sit there and listen to all the events of S11? is it because the US wants us to feel sorry for them? and take their side because they are the "goodies".

 

does anyone out there know who the Americans were supporting and suppying arms to when the Russians were invading Afganistan around 20years ago??? you guessed it.... dare i say it.... the taliban!!!!

 

like i said, you have all brought up some interesting views on the current political environment of the world..... and it is good to see that not everyone is being sucked into everything they are seeing and hearing in the papers/internet/television

etc.

 

so is anyone else asking similar questions to me or am i just paranoid??

[NoFakie 45]

The USA has a record of changing several popularly elected reformist regimes (Chile, Nicaragua etc.) to nasty brutal ones that went on to receive American support. Many a Latin American despot learnt his trade at the CIA's School of the Americas and was ensured of US support for suppressing popular revolt by any means necessary so long as the interests of US coorporations were protected. American interference in Indo-China brought untold suffering to the local people. Even it was deposed by the Vietnamese, Pol Pot's forces continued to receive US assistance (and SAS training). How could that be justifiable?

 

As has been stated often, the Taleban were originally armed and trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Their fundamentalist tendancies were well known at the time. There were CIA reports of Taleban fighters taking time off from sniping at Soviet tanks to destroy schools where they found female pupils. Many leading Taleban figures weren't even Afghani. They were simply a hodgepodge band of rogues unleashed in Afghanistan with heavy weaponry in the hope they would inconvenience the Soviets. This has proved to be highly irresponsible, with the Afghanis being the biggest victims.

 

Lots of evidence points to al-Qaeda receiving significant support from leading families in Saudi Arabia, home to many of the 9/11 hijackers. For a regular oil supply, the USA has pursued favourable relations with the highly corrupt and suppressive regime in Arabia. However, the USA's use of the Gulf War as an excuse to establish a strong, permanent US military presence in Arabia and the blind support given by the USA to Israeli transgressions has understandably alienated many Saudis. This is the message bin Laden sends out in those videos. With US-Saudi relations souring, the USA needs another large oil supplier in the region. Number two oil supplier "happens" to be Iraq. Hussain's regime is obviously an extremely oppressive one, but it's weaker and less harmful now than its ever been. Hussain and bin Laden are sworn enemies, so any Iraqi connection to 9/11 seems fanciful and certainly remains unsubstantiated.

 

The only way the west can take a moral lead is by actions, not grandiose statements. Attacking countries for ulterior motives and disposing of legal procedures when convenient is not the way to set an example.

[fukdane 2]

Keep it coming intellectuals.....we are getting all serious aren't we?

[Ocean11 0]

NoFakie (how's it going?) A few thoughts on your last;

 

> the Taleban were originally armed and trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan

- Isn't there rather more to it than that? The 'thinking' and 'culture' of the Taliban is surely not a product of CIA training...

 

 

> Hussain and bin Laden are sworn enemies, so any Iraqi connection to 9/11 seems fanciful and certainly remains unsubstantiated

- It's a bad old world, and the game of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' is not only played by the US and the UK. Iraq openly hands out cheques to the families of Arabs who blow up Israelis in naked acts of terrorism. bin Laden and Saddam may not like each other, but their objectives are not conflicting (with the only difference being that one of them controls a state and the other is stateless). There is evidence that Saddam had a hand in financing the first attack on the WTC.

 

 

> Hussain's regime is obviously an extremely oppressive one, but it's weaker and less harmful now than its ever been.

- Afghanistan didn't look particularly powerful on 9/10 either, but the 'forces' centered there managed a very destructive attack the next day. How much evidence of hostile intent and hostile planning do you need?

 

 

> This is the message bin Laden sends out in those videos.

- With which you seem to be in perfect agreement. Whenever I find myself in perfect agreement with freelance mass murderers, I stop and ask myself 'Is this right?'

 

 

> the blind support given by the USA to Israeli transgressions has understandably alienated many Saudis

- Understandable if'n you accept the Arab's blind, ignorant hatred of Israel, and all the anti-history that accompanies it.

 

 

> With US-Saudi relations souring, the USA needs another large oil supplier in the region

- Are they? Does it? If what you imply were the case, wouldn't it be simpler for the US just to buy oil from Iraq?

 

 

> Attacking countries for ulterior motives and disposing of legal procedures when convenient is not the way to set an example.

- Agreed. I'm not sure how the best example would be set actually, but my starting point, as far as this discussion goes, is that 9/11 was unacceptable, and that ongoing responses are essential.