Pass pulling and just saying no

[Ocean11 0]

peaker, that's very funny. As if we all go to resorts looking for a confrontation, or prepared to do battle with the management in their own language. (I wonder if the top manager at Cortina has a snowboard rack in his office to accomodate complaining snowboarders...)

 

Personally, I go to enjoy the best of the snow that there is within range of a lift. I go with the intention of coming out safely. I take care not to hurt anybody, or get anybody hurt. And I pay money for that.

 

If a patroller comes and tells me off for that, I will politely remonstrate with him, and invite him to convey my complaints to the management. (He won't, and instead he'll give me a bunch of mealy-mouthed hypocrisies.) I certainly won't spoil my day by going to 7-Stars land inside the resort.

 

And then if the guy starts acting like he's the law, I will get quite obstreperous and very pushy. Do you have a problem with that?

[peaker 0]

I didnt suggest that you "prepare for battle" Ocean. I simply suggested communicating your opinion in a way that is more responsible for the Snowboarding community as a whole.

I do have a bit of a problem with people acting like clowns because it reflects on other snowboarders and in some cases other foreigners.

Some people are claiming that the resorts have no right to stop you riding in certain areas. There is certainly a case to be made for the right to access public land outside of resort boundaries but if you are moving in an out of the resort on a regular basis things might be different. Im pretty sure that there would have to be certain safety standards required to operate a resort on private or public land. This would no doubt include the lifts themselves and the resort area. I would Imagine that resorts are not just entitled but probably required to enforce certain standards. It is the responsibility of the operator to decide how to do this.

I really cant see what the big issue is anyway. Maybe Im spoilt up here but there are several areas that will allow you to ride off piste no worries at all. At Kiroro you sign in with ski patrol and head BC they just want to know when youll be back. At Rusustsu they dont like off piste. Result: I dont go to Rusustsu. Why dont you go see the patrol guys before you go off piste and find out whats cool with them. If you dont like what you hear take your hard earned elsewhere.

Half the problem here is that what a lot off people are talking about is the mythical powder next to the lift. I dont really think it exists. Well ok it can, but not for long.

You guys should decide whether to ride powder or ride in a resort.

If you really want to ride under the lift grow up and dont whinge when they tell you to rack off.

[Ocean11 0]

peaker, maybe you are spoiled. There are lots of resorts with good, ridable powder accessible from the lift. I don't know how brilliant it is compaired with what you're used to, but I know places right under the lifts that are almost like your own private valley, not just at one resort either.

 

Sure they get tracked out by the end of the day, but they're fun to ride, they're not prone to avalanches at all, and if you happened to break your ankle down there, they could get you out in no time. It's not mythic at all. Nor is it particularly hard to see why some people might like that instead of groomers.

 

All I'm saying is that I think one has good reason to complain if somebody wants to stop you doing that, especially if they get obnoxious about it and threaten you.

 

I don't really want to ride with a shovel and beacon and snowshoes, at least not for the moment. Later, maybe. I just want to ride some safe, fun terrain at a resort. If some resort manager invites me to go and talk with them about it, I'd happily go, but they're not. They just have some shithead patrol guy and his lame excuses.

[rach 1]

Just use some rach-charm

[Higuma 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by miteyak:
As for 'jay walk and yer outta here...'

Miteyak... I think by selectively deleting part of my post in your quote you have completely missed my meaning... I think I had said that you "don't want to get arrested for as much as jaywalking..."

The point being that a foreign national "arrested" in Japan even for a misdemeanor by our standards can find himself in the "Soup" rather quickly without much rights to what you might consider as a fair and just legal system....

I wish the article was online but Xene Magazine - Billingual Hokkaido Info Magazine @ www.xene.net - has an Article entitled " Beware of Bad Foreigners" in which it outlines the many ways ex-pats are dealt with improperly by the legal system and also the press in Japan... It's a good read but that article is just not online yet

Anyways, I am just not so sure I'm ready to get in a punch up here, regardless of how personally confident in my correctness or toughness... Just my luck I'll get the bug who's looking to get squashed....

[miteyak 0]

From the Hokkaido reports surrounding the police actions at world cup time, I think the situation may be a lot worse up there than where we are. I've found the police to be consistantly friendly down here, and as for poor treatment of foreigners...

 

As for mis-representing what you said...

[peaker 0]

I enjoy exchanging ideas here and I think often people tend to take an extreme point of view just to stimulate discussion on the board. Thats pretty cool by me.

With that said Ill go ahead and make a few comments on Oceans last post in this thread .

Ocean says he wants to ride "safe and fun" in the resort.

He doesnt want to equip himself with saety gear.

But the patrol guy is a "shithead"

So whats the story? are you taking control of your own decisions or are you asking someone else to provide the "safe and fun". You cant say its your party if your in somebody elses place. If you want to be the guy who judges whats "safe and fun" go ahead. Dont give someone else grief for doing their job, ride somewhere else or apply for a job with ski patrol.

By the way how do you assess whats avalanche prone or not? Considering you dont equip yourself for emergencies you must be pretty confident with your stability assesments I guess.

[Higuma 0]

Peaker... What I got from Ocean's posts was that he doesn't want or feel the need to ski OB... He thinks that he can enjoy his lift pass without breaking the rules.. desu ne?????

[Davo 1]

Not sure about this one. In one extreme you start brawling and on the other you just do what you're told. Have been caught once, and the patrol guy grabbed my arm conveniently right outside the office. He nabbed me cause he'd already caught my friend after an apparantly comical hot pursuit & worked out we were together.

I thought it was funny as I'd just done a few hours of some of the best riding of the season. Anyway it got even more humorous when my mate started to walk off as I continued to protest in English. I basically had the option of running or cooperating so I went in with the guy followed by my mate who was the one caught redhanded.

In the interrogation room I spoke Japanese and we played the unknowing, yet very cooperative innocents. Just got a telling off which was even funnier, keeping up a concerned demeanor as we made out we didn't know what we'd done wrong. Filled in a form and then they let us go.

So we went off and scored some more of that not so mythical powder somewhere else. Laugh it off and play dumb I reckon. If you lose your ticket I guess that wouldn't be so funny. In that case I think demanding to see the management is worth it just, to play up the 'I didn't know' routine. A bit of fake humble pie never choked anyone, and it's probably a little less stressful than getting all hot and bothered.

[Ocean11 0]

 Quote:

I enjoy exchanging ideas here and I think often people tend to take an extreme point of view just to stimulate discussion on the board.

Disagree. There's an extreme lack of people being able 1. to read, and 2. to think for themselves. Hence they have extreme views with no basis in reality whatsoever. As Higuma points out in his gentle way, you can't read peaker. Or maybe your whacky opinions aren't real, they're just to stimulate discussion.

 Quote:

He doesnt want to equip himself with saety gear.

Make that 'unnecessary saety gear' and you'd be right. I equip myself with a helmet even though not officially required, because I think for me it's necessary. But to weigh myself down with shovels and crap to ride under the lift or in the trees? No.

 Quote:

you taking control of your own decisions or are you asking someone else to provide the "safe and fun"

Oh yeah, we got the vocab ain't we just? I pay money for a service, and yes, the expectation for both parties is that it should be "safe and fun", otherwise, why bother? It's just the matter of degree that I'm arguing about.

 Quote:

If you want to be the guy who judges whats "safe and fun" go ahead. Dont give someone else grief for doing their job, ride somewhere else or apply for a job with ski patrol.

Spouting, that's all that is. Thank you, I'd like to judge what safe and fun is - I think I'm qualified. I also have a job, so I don't think I'll be joining the patrol anytime soon - remember, I go to the resort to have fun, not work. And the job of the patrol should be guarantee that, not hinder it.

Just to make it really simple, I don't want to ride where there are likely to be avalanches, hence I won't be needing avalanche gear.

Avalanches require 1. a certain degree of slope, and 2. a certain length of slope. In most cases I can judge those factors for myself. But it would be far better if the resort took care of that for me, and provided some suitable terrain.

The patrol are shitheads when they adopt a threatening tone and are dishonest when they claim that it's in your own best interest not to ride the fun and safe powder places. It makes it even worse when they throw in the 'we feel yo' pain' hypocrisy.

And finally, I know that opening up terrain will mean the powder will go faster - I can live with that.

[peaker 0]

The opening words of my last post were aimed at creating a less confrontational tone. After all I thought that was what we were talking about, getting into confrontations. Ocean If you want to talk about whether more or different terrain should be opened Im sure Id agree with you but I was thinking we were talking about the range of acceptable behaviour when dealing with patrol. I get that you want to go out and have a fun day riding fun terrain without any hassles, that makes sense, but your not going to do yourself any favours by getting into a fight with Patrol. Your profile says youve been here for 11 years, I would have thought youd have worked out that things get done in Japan with a little give and take.

The patrol guys Ive spoken to all seemed pretty cool. Then again a lot of places I ride at have good "legal" off piste terrain.

Anyway, The main thing is to have fun riding wherever you go.

You guys can have the last word on this one If you want cause Im done with this topic, its starting to disturbe my "wa".

[TheOrange 0]

Peace man I'm cool with that.

[Ocean11 0]

peaker, I'm sorry if your wa is disturbed. My nose went one notch out of joint when you joined the discussion feet first... I'd be more happy to have civilised discourse with you.

 

I haven't actually had much 'face time' with Patrol, but what I have had didn't impress me favourably. They come on very righteous, they say things like 'We understand that you want to ride powder, but we're sorry, you can't. We're not going to take your pass this time, but we will next time.', and they won't engage in negotiation of any sort because they don't believe they have to. As representatives of the resort, it's not the way to build rapport with the clientele or show them a good time.

 

I understand the give and take thing very well, but the way they start in usually precludes that. I also understand Davo's approach, and it's reasonable, but I'm not made that way (maybe somebody has noticed already...)

 

So I wanted to hear from anybody who had been physically grabbed, or been given some serious hassle, and hear how they dealt with. Of course, I'd be happy to hear from you what experiences you've had, but if you have a look at your own posts, you might understand why you ended up with a kink in your own wa.

 

Shall we make friends and talk nicely?

[DrEvil 0]

Just Say No Official Campaign

[talisker 0]

This is all very interesting. In Niseko, they have a local rules system. You can read about it in one of the features. Essentially, a patroller tried to stop us from going under the ropes, but according to these local rules, they can't stop us. He accepted it and we went under the ropes.

 

The flip side is that if anything happens they are not responsible - so basically you can get charged for a rescue.

 

On another occasion myself and my friends were caught on the same run by the same patroller three times. We decided a fourth time would be pushing it. The patroller knows we are after powder, and we know he is supposed to uphold the rules, and we reached a balance. It isn't unusual for patrollers here to say Hi and "wait til I am gone". They know it goes on, and half the time just want you to show a little respect. Whereever possible, I make sure I am not ducking a rope right in front of a patroller, I mean that is just cheeky.

 

It is possible to have fun and be safe, withoout getting into a shouting match with patrol. It is much easier to enjy the powder if you show a healthy respect for patrol......but only when they are looking....

[Higuma 0]

Nice post Talisker... That certainly sheds some light and makes alot of sense to me...

 

With all the discussion about Shikattaganai I have realized that a growning number of youger natives are getting tired of this attitude as well - hence the attitude " If I see you, it's wrong - but if I am not looking / around the corner / on a coffee break then - Banzai and gambatte "

 

BTW - how are things up there... crowded this weekend ??

[talisker 0]

Hey Higuma,

 

Steep and deep two days ago - not many hiking so fresshies all the way down and nbody pullig passes...no passes to pull!

 

Shopping in Sapporo on Wed, boots boots boots

[NoFakie 45]

 Quote:

Originally posted by talisker:

The flip side is that if anything happens they are not responsible - so basically you can get charged for a rescue.

If its not a stupid question, why are resorts responsible for what happens on piste even? On this forum, some people have described how you can get compensation from a resort for injuries that occur onpiste, but unless its a lift pylon falling on you, why is the resort responsible?

[wooski 0]

[/qb]

If its not a stupid question, why are resorts responsible for what happens on piste even? On this forum, some people have described how you can get compensation from a resort for injuries that occur onpiste, but unless its a lift pylon falling on you, why is the resort responsible?[/QB]

 

its because resorts owe a "duty a care" and its the litigious ones who cannot take care of its own actions that sues the resorts.

[Higuma 0]

Talisker.. Are you shopping for tele / mountaineering boots or Ski boots.., I'm a little tied up but have a hole in the afternoon... You should have my cell # if not then send me a mail and I'll forward it... Coffee at the least maybe... Don't forget Takahashi-san at ICI - he's a bit of a tele-nut and knows his stuff... If he's working you'll usually find him on the 4th floor with the tele and mountaineering stuff...

 

Cheers

[oblivion 5]

wooski, what? I'm not following ya there.

[rach 1]

The resorts aren't responsible are they NoFakie? I thought that just covered the "if I hit a ski pole" or is where the resort was in error or something like that.

[NoFakie 45]

Some of the old threads aren't available but

 

http://www.skijapanguide.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002296#000010

 

includes messages where people say they got compensation for accidents (one a mtb accident) at a ski resort. Other messages in that thread speculate about resorts' liability, with the assumption being that at least some resorts will pay something if you get injured.

[jared 0]

This doest relate directly but on the issue of compensation - I was taking a ski lesson in Niseko and as you do we were kinda weaving down the course. A helmited snowboarder crashed into someone in my class and left after the crash. My student was injured but refused an offer to get the ski patrol and made her own way down the hill. We phoned my boss (not the resort a private ski instructing business) who come and picked her up in his car and took her to hospital as she was complaining of a sore neck. Who pays? (as a side note during the same lesson before the incident I was taken out by a snowboarder too but there was no other suitable terrain)

answer - the snowboarder if only wwe got her name. since we didnt my boss refunded the money for the lesson to her and her friends, paid for her trip to hospital and possibly some other expences. Somehow they caught up with the snowboarder and her insurance paid for everything again (including her hotel).

If you need some money it would be an easy scam to pull.

[damian 0]

Yeah, well try this on for size:

 

I was struggling my way down a slope that I had no choice but to be on. There was a ski lesson taking place further up the slope to me. They were doing the lesson thing where the instructor does a short run and then the class copies. I was minding my own business when I was run into by the instructor, of all people. He had to ski down the slope about 40m to hit me. I have no idea how he didn't see me. He was very nervous over the whole incident as he knew he had hit me from behind and his whole class saw him. He didn't crash but i went flying. Crazy thing was I had been sticking to the very edge of the run on purpose to stay out of peoples way.

 

Is it not not a rule that the person further downhill always has right of way and if you run into someone from the uphill side then it is your fault? I somehow don't think the tossers in his ski class with their fancy little ski suits learnt anything about slope road rules in that lesson.