mitchpee 10 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Hey Guys, So there's a lot of people that feel Niseko is not living up to its full potential. Every day we stare at the fresh, untracked lines in the o-sawa/Haru no take areas and ones that are permanently closed. Upon living in Utah, I have seen many extremely more dangerous areas managed with almost no incidents. We can provide scientific data recorded every day from our own weather station to help describe the safer days on when these could potentially be opened. I personally have never seen anything slide in these areas even with daily bombing occurrences. I would like to invite the Niseko Avalanche Management team from Niseko United to discuss these areas and have an honest discussion about why these can't be managed. We can provide evidence from our side and comparison of similar terrain in the region. However, we have never been able to have a discussion about this and everytime I have tried to contact someone I was ignored or referred to someone else. *this is not an attack on the current management, merely a promotion for discussion on the matter at hand upon which both parties would greatly benefit from* Please sign the petition if you agree with me and want to see Niseko adopt a more sensible policy on avalanche terrain management. http://www.change.or...valanche-safety Link to post Share on other sites
dyna8800 3 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 All I can say is... "local rules" (cringe) Good luck with that. Link to post Share on other sites
mitchpee 10 Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Ah yeah localism is completely worthy of respect. I'm not asking for unconditional opening of these areas. Just simply a logical discussion of the benefits vs ACTUAL dangers (not perceived, created, imagined). Link to post Share on other sites
Chriselle 158 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Logical?.......Mitch, this is Japan remember. That said.....I would be going for signatures from Japanese nationals. Link to post Share on other sites
Jynxx 4 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 And you better speak Japanese hard to convince Management that they will benefit from additional workload ... with out a pay increase Link to post Share on other sites
Gunma Boarder 14 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I think you would need some sort of petition with lots and lots of signatures from Japanese nationals and also an advocate who is Japanese. Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites
rider69 18 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Look Mitch no offense but in my experence in Japan, the Japanese rarely listen to someone living here part time. Best that you get some longer term resdient that speaks very good Japanese to push the issue. There are a few big names up there that ring a bell that will have alot more pull. Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Good luck with it Mitch, fo sure....but as you've probably gathered, those of us who live here are pretty familiar with the liklihood of a Gaij advocating change in any aspect of Japanese life as being next to zero. That said, ganbaru, I'm sure everyone would love to see you succeed Link to post Share on other sites
pie-eater 207 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Well I have signed. I think you lot should jolly well be more 'positive'! Link to post Share on other sites
dyna8800 3 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 This sounds like one of those "us" and "them" conversations...and quite frankly, you are not going to get a lot of, ahem, respect by waving petitions in their faces. Who exactly have you spoken to? Talk to any NV patrollers? Done the educational program that started last week? Discussed the terrain with any avy forecasters there? Do you know any of the movers and shakers there? I am not talking about foreigners, you need Japanese and resort stakeholders. There is no "good" reason in their minds to open up the area, there are a lot of yahoos who are going to get in there and get themselves killed for no good reason except for a bit more fresh pow and they have plenty of that with the BC gates. BTW, how long are you going to be out there in Niseko? I am waiting for Go Native to pipe in here... Link to post Share on other sites
pie-eater 207 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Go Native will definitely stand up for the resort. He really likes them. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 If you're to have any chance whatsoever you would have to get Akio Shinya on board. He is the main avalanche guy there who prepares the avi reports and decides on which gates open or not. He was instrumental in getting the Niseko Rules approved in the first place which were pretty damned revolutionary for a Japanese resort and I believe are one of the main reasons Niseko became such an incredibly popular destination. My issues with management of Niseko and it's development have never really been about access to terrain. Frankly they already have one of the best managed off-piste and slackcountry policies in the country. Getting approval for the opening up of Mizuno no Sawa took many years and I'd suspent we'll need quite a few more years of this area being successfully managed before there's any chance of opening up other areas that are more dangerous and would require a level of management skills that barely exist currently in Japan. Link to post Share on other sites
griller 9 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Do Tokyu still not have any gaijin on the payroll? Link to post Share on other sites
mitchpee 10 Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 I really appreciate all the feedback. I fully realize my limitations as a gaijin living in Japan. However, I am not alone and yes there are nationals who feel the same. Working on the Nihongo part of this all and this is just the very beginning. I'm not expecting Haru no take to open tomorrow. I do, however, expect my points to be heard and considered by someone who will listen. To those that have asked I and many people who feel the same way as me have spoken to various patrollers and Akio has been talked to as well. My main issue is there is absolutely no discussion about these areas. It's off limits simply because "that's the way it is" and nobody wants to lose their job (understandable). This terrain could open up Niseko a lot more and as I am willing to show be managed safely. The terrain is not very dangerous and I am willing to show that. Again this is not any sort of critique of Japanese life, condemnation or anything of the sort. I wouldn't be in this country advocating for Japan if I didn't love the people, culture, and language. I just want to promote discussion about these areas because in the rest of the world there are managed areas that are infinitely more dangerous than a 20 degree gulley run riddled with trees. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Another issue for you Mitch is that it's not up to the resort in the end. It's national park and final approval has to be given by the government. This ads a whole other layer to the difficulty and as anyone on here who's spent much time in Japan can tell you will add years and years of frustration to the process. Link to post Share on other sites
RobBright 35 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 It's national park and final approval has to be given by the government. No, not the government! Nothing will ever get done about it then. They will need to create a quango to talk about thinking about opening up the slack country before they even consider creating a quango on actually opening the slack county. In all seriousness, slack country just isn't as big within the Japanese community itself as the international market. While it would be good to have it, as you know, you are going up against a group who, will more than likely suck the air through their teeth and proclaim it isn't the Japanese way, or done thing. Good luck though with it. Link to post Share on other sites
dyna8800 3 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 If you're to have any chance whatsoever you would have to get Akio Shinya on board. He is the main avalanche guy there who prepares the avi reports and decides on which gates open or not. He was instrumental in getting the Niseko Rules approved in the first place which were pretty damned revolutionary for a Japanese resort and I believe are one of the main reasons Niseko became such an incredibly popular destination. My issues with management of Niseko and it's development have never really been about access to terrain. Frankly they already have one of the best managed off-piste and slackcountry policies in the country. Getting approval for the opening up of Mizuno no Sawa took many years and I'd suspent we'll need quite a few more years of this area being successfully managed before there's any chance of opening up other areas that are more dangerous and would require a level of management skills that barely exist currently in Japan. Ahh, I was waiting for that. (Avy) "management skills that barely exist currently in Japan." Here is the scenario of what would happen: Niseko opens up more terrain after years of discussion and patient planning. A few high profile deaths of a few skiers/snowboarders soon after would close it off FOREVER. Look, it is hard enough to keep the damn gaijin (and Japanese) from ducking ropes. I see it all the time, even close to get gates. No respect gets no respect. How do you expect anyone to keep themselves alive when they cannot even follow the current "local rules"? Ever ask those in the know if the "educational program" is a way to promote the area and to show that it is indeed safe and manageable, and if there was a timeline to open Mizuno no Sawa in X years? Or how about a master roadmap to opening up future terrain? I would suggest that you swig some beers with the folks in charge up there before you start circulating petitions. And it does help to speak Japanese... If you feel so strongly, put everything you have in a written report and I will see what I can do to have it translated so you can present it to the "management". Make sure to emphasize your avy management credentials as well as past skills in managing terrain. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I have nothing but praise for the current management of the gates system. There's not been an avi death in Niseko since the inception of the 'local rules'. They've been in place now for what about a decade? For an area that recieves as much snow as Niseko does I think that's an incredible testament to those that manage the system. Getting everyone to respect the local rules though is not something you can force people to do, you can only enforce the rules which I wholeheartedly support. Any sort of management of access to off-piste is rare in Japan. Most resorts just ban it altogether or like Rusutsu and Kiroro just turn a blind eye to those going off-piste whilst having no management of the slopes in place whatsoever. Slope management within a resort though of the likes you find in the US, Canada and Europe is practically non-existent in Japan and there are very few with the skills to do it properly. There's some limited slope management in Mizuno no Sawa but elsewhere on the mountain there's none and the only management option is to limit access through the gates (which works). Personally I doubt Haru no Taki would ever be approved. There have been avi deaths there in the past which led to it being made totally off limits. Can't imagine them ever opening that area. Link to post Share on other sites
dyna8800 3 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 GN, I agree completely. Link to post Share on other sites
mitchpee 10 Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 I have nothing but praise for the current management of the gates system. There's not been an avi death in Niseko since the inception of the 'local rules'. They've been in place now for what about a decade? For an area that recieves as much snow as Niseko does I think that's an incredible testament to those that manage the system. Getting everyone to respect the local rules though is not something you can force people to do, you can only enforce the rules which I wholeheartedly support. Any sort of management of access to off-piste is rare in Japan. Most resorts just ban it altogether or like Rusutsu and Kiroro just turn a blind eye to those going off-piste whilst having no management of the slopes in place whatsoever. Slope management within a resort though of the likes you find in the US, Canada and Europe is practically non-existent in Japan and there are very few with the skills to do it properly. There's some limited slope management in Mizuno no Sawa but elsewhere on the mountain there's none and the only management option is to limit access through the gates (which works). Personally I doubt Haru no Taki would ever be approved. There have been avi deaths there in the past which led to it being made totally off limits. Can't imagine them ever opening that area. This is what I am trying to get at. A discussion about why they are closed and if it still serves as a purpose of saving lives to be closed or just being stubborn. The o-sawa areas (especially mizu no sawa) are just simply not going to cause deaths. If they are managed decent at best, they will be fine. On the extreme days when the chance of sliding even becomes fathomable, it can be trigged intentionally or allowed to settle. This is not difficult at all. I agree Haru no taki is more difficult of an area with massive trigger points and steeper, more sustained, wider bowl areas, and general rocky terrain. This is something that has caused deaths in the past (1999) and I can understand being a hazardous area with more difficulty to manage. However, this is also controllable and is similar to a lot of the terrain in North America but with safer snow pack conditions because of more consistent weather. Link to post Share on other sites
gozaimaas 61 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I don't think there is much doubt from most people in what you are saying. Its just that its kind of like (in a much less dramatic fashion lol) flying into hawaii, paddling out pipeline the next day and telling the locals how its gonna be. It aint gonna happen. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I don't disagree at all Mitch. My point is that Niseko is already leaps and bounds ahead of most other Japanese resorts when it comes to opening up off-piste and managing gates to access sidecountry. Convincing them that they should continue to do more is not going to be easy. Anyway as I said initially if anything like this is to have even a small chance you'll need to get Akio Shinya on board with the idea. Nothing will happen in Niseko in regards to opening up new avalanche prone terrain unless he is fully behind the initiative. You'll find him at the avalanche centre at Moiwa. Link to post Share on other sites
mitchpee 10 Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 I don't think there is much doubt from most people in what you are saying. Its just that its kind of like (in a much less dramatic fashion lol) flying into hawaii, paddling out pipeline the next day and telling the locals how its gonna be. It aint gonna happen. I think a better analogy would be like being from Hawaii and knowing pipeline then going somewhere that has safer waves, maybe Lombok? and offering advice. I don't expect to be the one to change everything but I sure as hell want to promote some talking about this issue. Not bad mouthing, not drama, not condemning...simply questioning why such a region is permanently closed. Link to post Share on other sites
sand 17 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 The Avalanche information page is a complete misnamed. It doesn't follow any recognisable avalanche forecast standard. It should be renamed Gate Opening Times, would be more honest. It is a pity that most people who head out the gates have no avalanche / back country safety awareness. It is also a pity that more places don't follow the French Alps; to quote Greg Stump , "Ski an off-piste or out of bounds run in Europe, and your life becomes your ante. You are responsible for your existence in a game, where losing means checking out for good" Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Rich 78 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I think this is a great post Mitch and I see the logic and sense of what you're saying but, for the reasons already mentioned, I reckon you've got an uphill battle on your hands. That said, it's promoting discussion and you never know, these discussions might be read by or brought to the attention of someone who might be able to help. From small acorns and all that. Link to post Share on other sites
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