barok 0 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 So of course it is difficult to categorize people into 4 categories, or 3 categories, or however you do it, but I have been spending alot of time thinking about the semantics of this type of thing. I think mostly because I feel I have upped my category in my own crazy head. Who would you put into these types of categories? For me. . . Beginners range from first-day riders and skiers to people who can ride down the blue runs without falling. Intermediates are the largest group - I think there are several keys to making it into this category - riding/skiing switch, jumping, riding/skiing powder effectively, riding/skiing black diamond runs, riding the halfpipe. And to make it out of this category, you have to pull some serious tricks in the park, pull tricks in the halfpipe, drop cliffs, rip the powder like it's butter. Advanced riders and skiiers can ride any terrain in any conditions, can go very fast in the powder between the trees and handle all of the terrain in-between, pull big tricks in the park consistently, and can handle the big jumps, and rails. Expert riders and skiiers are at a level where they do or could compete. These people can do stuff that would make your jaw drop. Of course it's nebulous, maybe unimportant even, but i think it's an interesting enough thought excercise, so how do you rate it ? Link to post Share on other sites
talisker 0 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 what about someone who is an advanced skier in powder, but only a beginner in the pipe but has never dropped a cliff but is actually advanced at fakie/switch who hasn't even seen a one make - hard to categorise or is categorising a complete waste of time and completely against the whole point - who gives a toss as long as you get down with a smile on your face? Just a thought.... Link to post Share on other sites
snowboard_freak 0 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Hmm interesting topic. Over here most resorts have a guideline where you can see what "level" you are at. For boarders there are four levels, 1 being beginner and 4 being advanced i guess. Skiers have 9 levels i think (correct me if im wrong), with the level 1 being beginner and 9 being advanced. This sytem works on what you can do on what runs. EG - level 2 boarder can link turns on green runs. I don't know if thats 100% accurate but thats the main jist of it. I think your classification is pretty tough, well tougher than the resort ones i have come across, which tend to be pretty weak. From your classification i'd probably put myself in lower intermediate. I can do some stuff in the intermediate classification, but not all. I do like your classification but mine would be slighty less "tough". Beginner - link turns down green runs without problem and can do some easier blue runs. Intermediate - can link turns down most runs (except really tough double blacks etc.) in all conditions. Advanced/Expert - can link turns on any run in any conditions, This is a very simple one. I think that you have to take into account that not everyone gets into the freestyle side of riding/skiing. That is the main weakness in your model. I have only just started to get into freestyle and a couple of my mates have no interest in it at all. What little jumps and rails i have done i have loved, and i think i will be tending more that way this season. I'll be interested in seeing other peoples ideas. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites
Josh 0 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I am new to this... but are you trying to tell us that you are advanced? just go big! who cares what category we "fall in" Link to post Share on other sites
barok 0 Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 no i am not trying to promote myself. . . the reason this got in my head in the first place was as such - I am trying to decide where to ride next year - somewhere in Japan or somewhere in North America. I want to go somewhere that has a strong freestyle scene, and so I was checking out Whistler on-line. They have a superpark, but they are very strict about who they let in - you have to be an advanced or expert rider. So I was trying to figure out what level I was, to see if I was worthy of their superpark. I wouldn't want to go there and then not be allowed access. Now, I can't get it out of my head. I know I am not an expert, but I gotta admit that I don't really know what I am, some days I feel intermediate (especially when I watch the Hakuba freestyle regulars, and somedays I feel advanced) so I invented my own little classification system, and thought I'd share, and get input onto what other people thought was what. Like I said in my original post, I don't really think this is important, just an interesting excercise in thought. And as snowboard-freak pointed out, resorts have their own classification systems, so there is some validity. And yeah, talisker, it is also way nebulous. There are racers, half-pipe riders and powder people who only stick to their thing, and are very good at it. i thought i made all that clear in my original post. Link to post Share on other sites
zwelgen 0 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I agree with Tali, perhaps you should have a different system for different types of riding. For example someone who pulls huge technical tricks in the pack might struggle when it comes to waist deep powder tree runs. And someone who hauls ass down moguls might be crap in the pipe. Maybe have different categories for freestyling and freeriding maybe? And perhaps have a lower and upper intermediate. not that this matters at all! Oh the ways I find to waste time... Link to post Share on other sites
OUfreeski2 0 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Barok, with the Whistler superpark (as you probably know ) the have some sizable hits there.Dane said you gotta sign a waiver to get in there that relieves them from ANY injury to you also you got pay $15 extra bucks to get in there and that puts a fair few people of the superpark. When you could hit one of the other parks. Link to post Share on other sites
danz 0 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 here is what whistler/blackcomb thinks about it.. http://www.whistler-blackcomb.com/mountain/school/ ahh...the power of the internet... danz Link to post Share on other sites
snowboard_freak 0 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 barok - from reading your journals and posts I would classify you as advanced. Just thought it might help to hear someone else classify you! Link to post Share on other sites
dane 0 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 the whistler super park is pretty ridiculous dude, but not as insane as mammoth's one park. you could probably manage it as long as you are careful (just don't go in there and toss yourself off the bigger ones -- a buddy of mine hurt himself on his first run through the park, and then swore never to go back in!) besides, last year, it's not like the cracked down on their ratings. if they saw you were clearly not good enough to be there then they'd get you out, but i mean it's not like you had to throw a misty 720 to even be allowed in the park. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 What's a blue run equivalent to in Japan? There are basically 3 levels indicated at Japanese resorts, so is blue equivalent to middle level? Another way of looking at the ranking is to have utter contempt for anybody who doesn't try a bit of everything. I think it's fine to say 'You may be able to ride the powder like you're flying, but until you try for some air, you're just a beginner'. I say that to my mates all the time. This business of specifying a certain level at resorts is pretty artificial. Anybody can make it down a steep and knarly run somehow, and the 'Double Black Diamond Club' at Tsugaike sounds daunting and high-level. But hey, an averagely competent rope-ducker like myself could no doubt easily make it through the trees there (without getting checked out and 'licensed' first). In some ways, your level is better judged by what you will try without really hurting yourself than by what you can actually do now. Just a few random thoughts... Link to post Share on other sites
oblivion 5 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 All very intestesting, thanks for the pointers. Link to post Share on other sites
snobee 0 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Barok's original analysis is reasonable enough. The question of "what level are you?" will always be highly subjective. As are a myriad of like questions such as "Are you a good driver?" "What's your Japanese level?"etc. As a broad marker the designated 3 course system - green, blue, black - is fairly accurate. However, being able to handle each course with confidence(not bravado)& control, while displaying the said skills would seem to be paramount. How often have you seen scrapers & ploughers way out of their depth on "higher" level terrain. Or the hoonies who can go oh so fast in a straight line down blues & blacks without one creative movement. But you try and tell them that they are only mid-beginners at the most. You can't leap-frog experience. Comes down to days under the belt and the quality of time on those days. Hitting blacks after 10 days is only an achievement in "pocket billiards." Link to post Share on other sites
frannyo 2 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 How come many resorts in Japan use different colors for course? Are they just going out on their own or what? Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 I'm not going anywhere with you snobee. You're a harsh judge of competence. Although I think maybe I qualify as creative when I land on my head attempting jumps in powder that are waaay beyond my level. Link to post Share on other sites
enderzero 0 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Regarding the Whistler/Blackcomb park: The problem is, at least the last two times I have been there (Mar 2002, Dec 2002), the regular-admit anyone park was pretty lame. No table tops, just a ton of spines and little rails. They put all the work into the monsters in the superpark and don't make anything at an intermediate level to get you in there. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 From what I know they change the parks around alot. One resort has the superpark and a regular one and the other resort has a park. Whistler is what it is a bit overblown and expensive. You can go to some other cool places and save a good chunk of cash. As for what level am I..... Think it would be bragging ahahah. I try to do it all. Try to jump ski pow, corn, crust, hike, cliffs, etc the more you do the better you get. i know this though I am not the best and am humble enouhg to take advice from people who are better or know more than me. Link to post Share on other sites
nzlegend 1 Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Quote: Originally posted by barok: Intermediates - riding/skiing switch, jumping, riding/skiing powder effectively, riding/skiing black diamond runs, riding the halfpipe. ? That is one hell of a big gap you have got between Beginner and intermediate!!. Also there is a hell of a big difference between boarding in steep deep powder and skiing in it.....a friggin quantum leap!, people can quite capably board in steep powder after few days, my friend rode with me all over Annupuri in Niseko after 2-3 days lifetime snowboarding, handled it quite well. I would dearly love to see a person with 2-3 days on skiis do the same. Can you ski Barok? have you skied in steep deep stuff? try it some time and garner some new found respect for skiiers who rip through it "like butter" as you put it. Also I have some friends back in New Zealand, soul skiers/riders you could call them, who have never stepped foot in a park, or pipe but could smoke most of the people in this forum, in the steep and deep. Herman Meier can(could) ski faster than anyone alive on course,hes is absolutely an expert skier, yet I doubt he would be that good in a superpark or pipe. You rating is flawed in this regard, You should have called the post classification for FREESTYLE skiers and riders for that is exactly what you have done, classify freestyle. Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 On the subject of the Herminator, is he coming to Shiga Kogen this weekend? He's on the poster for the FIS Slalom-GS event there, though I thought he was only a downhiller/Super G skier. Is anyone going? Link to post Share on other sites
nzlegend 1 Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Herman? I thought he had flagged the rest of the season to have the pins removed from his leg, continue to rehab and then come back next season, better than ever. He was only really doing Super G and Downhill this season as there is too much pressure exerted on the lower limbs in GS and his weakened leg couldnt quite hack it. but the Hermanator certainly is the man, I would give my left testicle to be able to ski that fast. Anyone who saw him in Nagano Olympics crash ion the downhill and come back to clinch the Super G has to have respect for the man.....legend Link to post Share on other sites
barok 0 Posted March 5, 2003 Author Share Posted March 5, 2003 I disagree with you kamoshika that someone like Herman couldn't handle the park or pipe. Maybe not right away, but I have seen people who are that gifted pick up a different variation on their sport almost instantly. I have seen seasoned park riders, who have never ridden big pow - because they live in midwest America or Vermont - drop into chutes for the first time, like it was no 'thang. and the best riders and skiers are all-around riders. I think it is a good thing to be able to handle any kind of terrain. Of course it is up to the individual whether he/she wants to even ride freestyle or powder or whatever. But riding/skiing one thing WILL help you excel at other aspects of riding/skiing. You ride the park, you will become a better powder rider - why? because you can handle more terrain, and bigger drops and jumps. You ride powder, you are better at freestle - why? becuase, riding powder shortens your reaction time. I use CR Johnson as an example. This guy is crazy freestyle - one of the 3 best in the world. spinning 1260's on the regular, but his first love is powder. all mountain riding is good. and of course there is a gap between beginner-intermediate. if you like you can add beginner-intermediate to the equation. It would be the progression of one level to the next. and yeah, I skied for maybe 8 years before I gave it up and started boarding. I remember dropping into big pow for the first time at Vail. Landed on my face. First couple of turns, same thing. But I made it down, took the lift back up, and could make linked turns all the way down the run by the end of the day. not exactly butter, but not exactly rocket science either. By the end of the week I could make it through the trees with reasonable ease. I will agree that skiing powder is harder than boarding powder, but I don't think skiing powder is as difficult as you are making it seem - A quantum leap - naaah! Anoher example - I went riding/skiing with my friend this year at Nozawa - he was on straight rental skiis, and had never ripped real powder, and hadn't skied in years, but he could rock the same lines that I was boarding. On another note - Is New Zealand really that deep? I have been thinking about doing a summer there, but alot of people say that there is not as much snowfall as they would like ? peace. Link to post Share on other sites
nekobi 0 Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Quote: Originally posted by kamoshika: Anyone who saw him in Nagano Olympics crash ion the downhill and come back to clinch the Super G has to have respect for the man.....legend did they make a commercial from that? i remember seeing one with a skier totally wiping out and then it says he won the gold 2 days later. is that him? Link to post Share on other sites
nzlegend 1 Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Quote: Originally posted by barok: On another note - Is New Zealand really that deep? I have been thinking about doing a summer there, but alot of people say that there is not as much snowfall as they would like ? peace. on the ski fields, the snow is often not that great, but high in the mountains, down south, where only helicopters can go you can find heaven... Link to post Share on other sites
zwelgen 0 Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Barok your mate must have been a legend because in the experience Ive had of dragging people into the powder the boarders usually do ok but the skiers are lying on their ass swearing at me for dragging them in there. Maybe some people have got "the knack" but Id say that your mate was definately in the exception. But then again maybe my skier mates just suck Link to post Share on other sites
TheOrange 0 Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 I have the same experience zwelgen. Link to post Share on other sites
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