Hanazono: Sold! To the Chinese fellow at the back

[Fattwins 0]

One day if Markie pays I might go to Niseko but it wouldnt be to ski the stuff in bounds. Maybe spend the money and rent the cat at Nicks new place to try to find something good. Or come in March and ski some more stable lines off the back the problem being getting back.

 

I know what I want to ski and it isnt low grade powder no matter how deep it is. My ski partners have been and they all come back and tell me, "FT it was fun but I got bored you wouldnt like it". These are some pretty good friends. People will choose one place over another place and I totally am on board with the fact that it is all good for us and of course Japan. Get them hooked and get them moving to other places rather than loose them to NA or Europe. Mr. Wiggles opened my eyes to that about 3 weeks back. The point I have always tried to make is that there is choice. That certain places get as much and more snow than others.

 

Anyways the season isnt too far off, the snow has been falling and more storms are stacking up.

[Go Native 70]

fatts if you come up you really ought to try some of the lines off Youtei. Some of them are pretty awesome.

 

As I've said before if you guys in Hakuba want some of the success we've had up here you really need to get some investment in western style apartments and promote yourselves more at families. In our experience up here most families don't want to spend their ski holiday sleeping on the floor in old cramped Japanese pensions. To just distinguish yourselves by promoting the steep terrain will not bring in the masses. Only a few percent of skiers can ski what you do and most of them are young guys with little money.

 

We had snow to sea level yesterday up here so it's definitely starting!

 

 

[Fattwins 0]

We are already getting our fair share of the pie really. At Jan14th last season we had 45000 bed visits by foreigners in 3 weeks. Hakuba doesnt have a lot of sleep on the floor places really. Also condos will just not be approved at least not right now. With the housing boom we are having, the local government doesnt see the need to have condos. There are a lot of foreigners buying, yes but.... What we are seeing also, is an influx of Japanese people moving into Hakuba from the cities. Not really investing, but setting up their retirements before the market goes bananas. Ive already made 3 times what I paid for my place so Im happy. That is in Theory though as you must find a buyer for your place.

 

And yes the season has started people have already been making turns....bastards

[Go Native 70]

Well it's good to hear of lot of the investment there is being driven by the domestic market. I wish more affluent Japanese were getting into things up here.

[bellavista 0]

I've been lurking on this site for quite a while - but I've been provoked into action by Fattwins post about never having been to Niseko.

 

I'd presumed you'd at least been there.

 

I'm sure you're a great skier and all, but I've read post after post both here and elsewhere, where you rail against Niseko and how flat it is - blah , blah , etc , etc. There are disparaging comparisons made, quotes like " you have no idea what you are talking about, mate" delivered to those who have good things to say about Niseko.

 

Any thread about Niseko has an even chance of being polluted by this crap.

 

And all this from someone who's never even been there!

 

I can't imagine criticising a place I'd never been to or skied. Ask any bunch of good skiers where their favourite places are - you won't get uniform answers - but you have to have been there to make reasonable comment.

 

I've never been to Hakuba and therefore would not even presume to be able to offer critical comment. I have friends who have skied Hakuba, but I don't presume that their perspective is the same as mine would be and I certainly wouldn't be taking people who live in Hakuba to task when they said good things about it.

 

There are a lot of good skiers in Niseko who have skied a lot of places, and skied a lot of places steeper than Niseko and Hakuba - and they all think Niseko rules.

 

Maybe you should try it.

[boardbaka 3]

sheesh - watch this space ! I don't know much info - but if thats true then I would have to say BellaVista has a pretty valid point !

[Fattwins 0]

Nope never been there cause I can read a topo map. If you want to get into whether Niseko is Flat then post a Topo to prove me wrong. Topo maps dont lie period and Niseko is not steep, nor does it have a chute, nor does it have anything really that defines Challenging Terrain.

 

Ive skied enough resorts in Japan to know where I want to spend my money. There are places in Hokkaido that interest me alot but they arent in Niseko.

 

Good though to have the other side on here for a change though.

[bellavista 0]

If you just base your assessment of a place on a topo map - you'll ski some pretty ordinary places. You see - it's about the skiing.

 

It's the snow - the quality, the depth, the frequency.

It's the spacing of the trees.

It's the accessibility of the slackcountry.

It's the accessibility of the backcountry.

It's the proximity of other good places to ski.

For some people it's the ability to ski an untracked tree run while their other half skis a groomer - and meet at the bottom and ride up together on the lift.

It's not having a nazi ski patrol.

 

There's plenty of challenging terrain in and around Niseko. If you want to check your maps you'll see some really good steep terrain off the back side of The Peak ( often too dangerous to ski), good terrain over toward goshki, good terrain around Chisenupurri, really good terrain over on Iwaonupurri. Not to mention Youtei - hard to believe anyone serious about their backcountry would turn their nose up at that.

 

Then there's Rusutsu nearby - one of the great tree skiing resorts in the world. Seriously.

 

Niseko is like this - http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76960&highlight=japan

 

and like this a lot of the time.

 

BTW I have nothing to do with the skiers in that link.

 

You see- there can be more than one good place to ski. Just because people say Niseko is good, doesn't mean your beloved Hakuba isn't.

 

I suppose we should let you deter people because it is getting tracked out a bit quicker in the last year or so...

 

But for Christ's sake get up there and try it before you give all these enquiring people a bum steer on what is a very worthy place.

[Fattwins 0]

Mate you are preaching the the converted in a sense. I have already said that it is horses for courses.

 

I have tried my best this year to steer clear of the come to blah debate really. I have a banter with Go Native to the point where we both maybe,,, understand each other. I have fun playing with him and he hits back. heck that's forums mate.

 

Those powder shots although deep are just not steep, I could link up the same level of shots from this area, or gifu or gunma, nigata etc. that is Andrew ski beaver in the shots, I know more than you think.

 

Yotei is not interesting to me mate sorry. Exposed and wind blasted no thanks. Kurodake and Asahidake both have so places Id like to ski.

Try the backside of Shirouma in the spring now that is mind blowing.

 

Niseko is not the only place in Japan with patrol that let you ski anywhere you want. Nor does Niseko have the best slack country or back country really come on that is pushing it.

 

Tree spacing in Japan is sick ill give you that! That's what I love about storm skiing here, great trees everywhere. The best Ive skied are on this video.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...earch&plindex=0

 

Topo maps show tons mate and yeah the backside looks great but Happo has 20 times the backside of Niseko within 30 minutes of hiking. That is slack country mate.

 

Again horses for courses

 

Food for thought on what I like again its horses for courses.

 

[thursday 1]

Fatts like I've said a million times, steep is steep, average skiers don't need that steep. WE ARE AVERAGE SKIERS and Niseko caters for us just fine, until the day I become an Olympic sownhill champ like Tomba

[Fattwins 0]

You guys arent reading what im writing Thursday i said Horse for courses. If you want that fine go ahead. But you cant convince me that Certain places have something that they dont have.

[bellavista 0]

A few points

 

1. We are not preaching to the converted, we're often preaching to the unconverted and often in a forum where they have asked for advice.

 

2. You seem to think we are saying Niseko is the "best". We're not - but we're not going to let someone say it is something it is not. As I said before - just because people say Niseko is good doesn't mean Hakuba isn't.

 

3. Judge by the photos people - if you think the photos in the TGR link look boring - don't go to Niseko. This is was it is like.

 

4. You have to have been somewhere to make the sort of critical commentary that you are making regarding Niseko.

 

5. Add 1 large grain of salt to all Niseko comments by Fattwins.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Sounds like you guys are actually all agreeing with each other.

 

Each resort has it's own attractions, and those variances might make one person want to stick with one resort over another. It also might make for some people to check out BOTH, at least at some stage in thier progression.

 

For me: Only been to Niseko. Loved it. We were rank beginners, never having touched snow until April (Dad and the older boys had), so the terrain was more than challenging enough for us. We also liked the spacious western style apartments that we were able to secure right at the top top top of the village - with a large family the japanese style accom does not suit I am afraid. The location right below the Gondola allowed for the kids to go off when they wanted to, and for the family to be able to head back "home" for a hot chocolate if the shops were packed!

 

As for Hakuba - the glowing reports I have heard have made me think that one trip in the near future will have to be there - now that we can link our way down the mountain with a bit of confidence...

 

As for other resorts - the more information Pro and Con we get to hear about them - then the more a visitor is able to work out if they want to go there or not.

[Fattwins 0]

Number one I didnt comment in that Thread on TGR.

Number 2 the marketing in Japan is a freaking Joke.

Niseko's yearly snowfall goes up every bloody year

for peats sake. It has now passed charmont Hiuchi,

Cortina or Hakkoda which is frankly and crook of poop.

So are you really not saying that you are number one?

 

You wanna attack me then bring it on!

Do you really think I started the Niseko is flat FACT!. Y

ou can either stop or we start down that endless true debate with maps and pictures of how flat Niseko really is. I didnt want to do it but I will it is your choice. I wont be attacked for things

that are true.

[Rag-Doll 0]

Here is something you don't see every day, a Hakuba v Niseko thread! Sometimes I wish Japan had more than two ski jos....

[bellavista 0]

 Originally Posted By: Fattwins

You can either stop or ...

So I have to stop?

Why don't you stop commenting on a place that you've never been to.

Niseko is not flat.
Good skiers like skiing Niseko.
Good skiers keep returning to Niseko.
Recommending Niseko to a good skier is one of the most reliable recommendations anyone could make.

[BillTheBinMan 0]

I find it quite amusing actually Rag-Doll, like a dog chasing it's tail running round in circles

 

Personally I think it's a bit much critisizing somewhere that you have never been to with such confidence and passion.

[Taco Con Queso 0]

Can't we all just lose the one-upsmanship. PLEASE!

 

Flat - whatever.

I've also heard it be said say that K'dake looks flat from a topo map - must've been reading with beer goggles.

 

This bickering's lame.

 

I'm sure FT would have a blast if he scored Niseko and the surrounding b/c on a good day (most of the time), and I KNOW he'd dig K'dake and A'dake and ****'dake, ****, and the cliff bands around ******** too.

 

And no doubt anyone would be blown away by the terrain in the J Alps.

 

I'm stoked on all the experiences and places I know in Hokkaido - but I'm not so close-minded as to think that this is the ONLY place to ride - I'm chompin' at the bit for a Honshu trip someday.

 

Isn't it all just about the smiles and high-fives at the end of a run? And a tall can in an onsen at the end of the day...

[bellavista 0]

Agreed Bill.

 

But at least the dog chasing it's tail isn't running off down the wrong road. I just got sick of seeing all this "Niseko is flat as..." stuff. It floored me to find out Fattwins hadn't actually been there.

 

So if the onlookers see the "dog chasing its tail" and draw some conclusions based on the strange balance that provides ... I'd be OK with that.

[Go Native 70]

The snowfall issue is one I agree with fattwins. Niseko ski area has no accurate snowfall data collection. The nearest reliable data is from Kutchan. Kutchan averages 12.4m of snowfall per year and is situated at only 176m asl. How much snow falls say at 1000m is only pure conjecture but would have to be far in exess of 15m. I personally would like to see more accurate snowfall data for the resort mainly because I take an active interest in such things. One thing we can say for sure is that at similar altitudes Niseko is one of the snowiest places on earth.

 

fattwins have you got links to snowfall data at Hakkoda? Because that area even at low altitudes get some serious amounts of snow. Aomori at sea level averages 7.7m of snowfall. This is more than anywhere I know of in Hokkaido at sea level.

 

And bellavista don't try and shut fattwins down. We have a lot of fun debating these issues. At the end of the day he is right the Annupuri Range doesn't really stack up terrain wise to the Japanese Alps. Our soaring 1308m peak doesn't quite compare to the 3000m+ peaks of the Alps. Fattwins has just had to get his head around the idea that most people can't and actually don't even want to ski the sort of lines he does. He finds it hard to accept the concept that the vast bulk of the average joe skiers/boarders out there are just happy with a moderate slope through awesome powder, that we aren't always looking for lines that would probably result in certain death if we stuff up. It's been a slow learning process but he's coming along, so don't get him all riled up or all his progress may be set back months, even years!

[jeanlucpoutine 0]

which place has better booze?

[bellavista 0]

Niseko

 

My friends tell me the beer in Hakuba is ....er...flat.

[Fattwins 0]

Im not telling you to shut up but if you want to have go I can have a go.

 

I bet i can find more people that refer to Niseko as flat than you can find them saying it isnt.

[jeanlucpoutine 0]

how about we sponsor a 'Bring Fattwins to Niseko' Tour to show a good time and to let him judge for himself (not topo maps, not friends comments). I'll pledge 100yen and first beer.

[jeanlucpoutine 0]

hey, you gotta admit that the beer comment was good. no need for fightin words.