nekobi 0 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 db- i think you are right that global powers rise and fall, everything in cycles, etc and that yes, America will no longer be the superower. but i just want to point out that the US hasnt been in the front for a couple hundred years. the US was busy expanding, fighting a civil war, and was pretty isolationist until the 20th century. after WWII is when the US got so powerful, so the reign hasn't been that long. but it seems like with the speed of information and the technology of warfare today, the turnover of global powers will be much faster than before. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 > there is one difference though between the prior world powers and the US: Technology That's what known as an anachronism. A handful of Spaniards conquered the Americas with technology called 'the horse' and full body armour. Attitudes are also important. If you think you can take down the Twin Towers with a box cutter, you may even be able to. Americans are generally only disliked as such to the extent that they trumpet the familiar American line. Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 As I said, had to go to a meeting... When I said technology - I wan't meaning technology in the sense of "conquering the world". America had the "technology" to blow up most countries and conquer the world over 60 years ago but didn't use it cause thats not what America is about. Thats what the Russians wanted to do...fortunately cooler heads prevailed. Technology allows us to have cell phones to communicate from almost anywhere on earth. It allows us to communicate right now via the net, to shoot and show pictures and video around the world live, as events happen. Communication is the key to winning most battles, and resolving most differences peacefully. Communication highlights the worst deeds of the most vicious dictator, and puts those deeds on display for the entire world to see. But then I suppose there are still pacifists who are willing to say "its not my beef" and turn their heads. I'm sorry, but I don't see how anything America has done EVER that puts America's people and leaders in the same category as Vlad the Dracul, Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hussein to name a few. I was going to say "America, and the entire world has come a long way in the past 2000 years in terms of dealing with each other in a humane way - promoting religious, racial, and cultural freedoms experienced like no other civilization on earth - hell the Romans fed their slaves to the lions -" But then I remember we still have people like Hussein and Bin Laden and that Yugoslav guy... My last comment - if technology is to be the downfall of America, then it will be the downfall of the rest world at the same time - it's impossible to separate the rise and fall in America from the rest of the world... Don't think so? Pretend the internet went away and try sending me a reply by walking...it aint gonna happen. If technology comes crashing down, its going to come crashing down around everyone, not just the US. Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Ocean - what might that "familiar American line" be? How does it go? I'd like to know what others think "that familiar American line" is too? I know when I meet most foreigners, I don't go spouting "Hi, I'm Ray, I'm an American, citizen of the most..." I'm pretty sure most Americans don't do that either, so I'm curious - what is that "familiar American line" that turns everyone off? Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 It goes pretty much like your post of 11:07am. Deja Moo, that lot. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 If China opened up to the internet in the way most western countries have then within perhaps 10 years Chinese would be by far the dominant language on the internet. In the meantime, technology wont save America any more than it will save anyone else. I am not talking about saving a country from war. Americas day in the sun is almost up as to be frank, the country is bankrupt. Yes, when America crashes economically and losses its poll position in terms of financial power, the world will suffer heavily as a result. It will create a new playing field altogether. America will take along time to recover and will withdraw from having a long and strong global military arm as this takes big money and wont win votes. The next 50 years of US elections will be won by the candidate that focuses on internal economics rather than global security. In the meantime there will be a new pheonix rising from the ashes. The one thing that will remain the same in the distant future is the never ending war betwwen muslims and christians. By the way, had China not outlawed the building (and eventually the owning) of ocean going boats some 100's of years ago, they would have kicked serious arse over the UK, Spain etc. Oh, they would also would have had to stopped using gun powder for show-off big flashes/loud noises and started using it to actually kill people. Link to post Share on other sites
bob 0 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I'm in Washington DC, and the last few days has seen a lot of changes and it's all feeling freaky. Gunmen everywhere, helicopters and fighters constantly around, missile launching trucks very visible. What the F? Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Well Ocean, I'm still confused cause I don't see anything in the 1107 post that should make folks dislike me. If we meet on the slopes someday, we'll have to talk about it more over a beer or something... One thing for sure db - change is inevitable, and what goes up must come down. I just hope that for everyones sake, the change and fall come a little more gradual than your predictions. I do agree that no matter who thinks they have the best thing going, the 1 billion Chinese folks deserve some respect. Thats a lot of people to not have on your friendly side... The last item for me to add on this topic is the prayer that we DONT go to war with Iraq, we find Bin Laden, and Kim decides that feeding his people is more important than saber rattling about a resumption of the Korean war that will kill more people than it will reunite. see you on the slopes... Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Best to go into that over a beer I should think... Link to post Share on other sites
badmigraine 0 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Re what Bob said, above...it's really strange to me, too. There aren't any choppers here in rural Michigan, but whenever I see the news or what this-or-that American politician said, it seems more and more like some weird hawkish shortsighted group of right-wing bastard corporate frontmen have highjacked the entire country... I am terrified at what is going on, and each day the headlines are more and more incredible. It's like we are in a totally absurd, different world than existed less than two years ago. Check out today's zinger, below... I couldn't believe this petty, snotfaced posing...it has always been my understanding that a politician's ONLY goal is TO GET RE-ELECTED. What bugs me these days is what they think they have to do/say to get re-elected...is this stuff really what the American people want? Is the majority of American people really this tragically duped, ignorant and unredeemable?: "WASHINGTON - Some members of Congress are suggesting the United States impose trade sanctions on France and withdraw U.S. troops from Germany to retaliate for opposition to U.S. policies on Iraq, the Washington Post reported Wednesday. House Speaker Dennis Hastert has told associates he would like to target bottled French mineral water and wine, the paper said. "France and Germany are losing credibility by the day and they are, I think, losing status in the world," the Post quoted House Majority Leader Tom DeLay as saying. "They are walking a fine line that is very dangerous." Hastert has instructed Republican colleagues to determine whether Congress should pass laws that would new impose health standards on bottles of Evian and other French waters, the paper said. " Have a nice day. Link to post Share on other sites
nekobi 0 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 badmigraine-- i'm terrified too. what's happening with the US?? the trouble all started with the messed up election. thats a big reason why i'm over here rather than in the US. i know it's bad to just run away, but what can you do when your vote doesnt even count? Link to post Share on other sites
badmigraine 0 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Yeah... I know a lot of people who think the way I do. I wonder what is going on...the current government does not seem to reflect the opinions of the average citizen, yet with each passing day their reckless, bizarre position becomes more entrenched and irreversible. On the other hand I think there are plenty of Americans who simply swallow whatever CNN or Fox News ("Fair and Balanced"...) says, without question. Sad to say but a lot of US citizens are very ignorant about anything outside of the US ranging from ancient history to current events. Furthermore, they are easily manipulated by what seems to me to be ludicrously heavy-handed, broad-brush jingoistic media messages about Freedom and Mighty Resolve etc. I've tried to have polite conversations about the background of the Iraq crisis, only to be shouted down aggressively in the most bullying, "Patriotic" way...including all the trite rhetorical bells and whistles that I thought two generations of movies and TV shows had de-bunked in this country: people actually say/really believe stuff like "...and so we've got to teach 'Them' a lesson" (ask who 'They' are and you are angrily accused of supporting terrorists); "THEY are all just jealous of our FREEDOM and LIBERTY"; "THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OIL...THEY BOMBED US, ATTACKED US ON OUR OWN SOIL" etc. etc. Finally, they are utterly absorbed in the most trivial things, pouring their emotional and philosophical lives into TV shows, sports contests, popular music and entertainment...they've grown up that way and seem to exist as adults in a child's world of Teams and fantasy football/baseball leagues...a totally idiotic perspective when we are racing down a path to war and creating an environment where other countries now announce their plans to beef up nuclear arsenals. Check out the CNN website on any day to see the absurd juxtaposition of horrifying news about nukes, war, Bin Ladin, N. Korea, etc. right next to fat-filled news of entertainers, sports stars, character assassination ploys or lurid crimes. It's surreal. Everybody knows we have a terror problem in the US and many other countries. Now what is the best way to reduce/prevent terror attacks in the long run? Maybe I am an idiot, but I never figured it would be "blow up a few truly nasty Arabs while killing some innocent ones too, including women and children." That's cutting off your nose to spite your face. Another thing: you know that sneering tone in which statements of Arab terrorists are reported in English..."with Allah's blessing we will turn the heathen's land into a sea of fire..." Is that really qualitatively any different from the arch-Christian righteous statements of Bush about the "Axis of Evil" and "God Bless America" and all that? I wonder if there isn't some guy in Iraq who snorts when he sees Bush's quotes translated into his own tongue. Sheesh. Link to post Share on other sites
Karnidge 2 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 I often wonder if the translations of these "fields of fire" etc quotes are off and don't take into account certain cultural points. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 BM - that was very well said, you write good posts. A smart, educated thinking person asked a question the other day. I didn't know how to answer it. Not so much because I didn't know the answer, which I didn't, but because I was totally amazed that a stage has come where peoples minds work in such a manner that they could even ask, quite calmly, the following question: "have they set a date for the war yet?" Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 There's clearly a timetable in place, although we haven't been told the details. The problem with wars is that you can't just launch them when the political situation is most favourable or most clearly demands a war. The planning for wars is too cumbersome, and there are still seasonal factors involved, complex technology notwithstanding. This was the reason why WWI got started on a most implausible pretext and why it couldn't be stopped - no country wanted to be late mobilizing as to do so would be to lose, as would stopping mobilizing at any time. The same applies to the US now - lose this opportunity and they'll have to wait another year or so, and pay the costs of having taken mobilization so far for nothing. The US government clearly doesn't want to lose the opportunity with the best weather for fighting in Iraq, so they're trying to bring the political situation around. And they're doing a very bad, very scary job of it. We might expect that when weather conditions in Asia become more favourable for campaigning, then Kim's horns will suddenly be seen to grow very big. Link to post Share on other sites
mikazooki 0 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 for a fun bit of hypocrisy from an english point of view try http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/special_reports/iraq_hard_place.html some of the skits r pretty crap but the content is of some interest. Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 I think the biggest mistake the US Gov't has made so far is that they have not made their case clear as to WHY WE HAVE SIDESTEPPED OUR HUNT FOR BIN LADEN and why we're becoming increasingly agressive towards Iraq. I believe Iraq deserves our attention, after all, its a proven fact that he has gassed his own people, continues to murder those who oppose him (he won the last Iraqi election by a landslide), and that he pays the families of suicide bombers. I don't think the attention is needed at this time though unless we have the smoking gun proof that he is supporting terrorism against the free world by giving them WMD or money. My preference is we continue the hunt for Bin and his boys. The time of year for a war in Iraq doesn't matter like it does in Afghanistan or Korea. North Korea needs frozen ground to move their forces cause moving them on their roads makes them sitting ducks. For the most part, the weather in the deserts of Iraq is not a factor in successfully waging a war there. BM - I think when people see footage on the shuttle coming apart one minute, and commentary/"news" about world events/politics the next, it makes it difficult for some of them to differentiate between reality and slants. People see it on tv and say "it must be fact", the same way tons of mis-information propogate on the internet. Most people I know don't even look something up in a reference book or encyclopedia anymore - they just go to google.com, and if its there, it must be true. It certainly seems as though the opinions of the people aren't counting very much - lets hope that in the end, the "right" thing is done. Link to post Share on other sites
xxx 2 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Just on the news now - Americans starting to boycott French cheese and French wines. How sad is all this? Link to post Share on other sites
xxx 2 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Oh yes, duct tape and bottled water is also sold out too. Link to post Share on other sites
Roger's head 0 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 This new tape today where supposedly UBL is talking about him dying this year on his ultimate mission is ominous, don't you think? Link to post Share on other sites
badmigraine 0 Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Where does Cheeseman stand on this boycott of French wine and cheese? Link to post Share on other sites
oblivion 5 Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Yes, I think that is an issue that has to be confronted. Link to post Share on other sites
white-void 0 Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Interview on the TV now, it seems "Rummy" is considering the use of nuclear devices in retaliation if Iraq (or someone else) uses weapons he doesn't like. OK nice to know you everyone, see you in the afterlife. Link to post Share on other sites
oo 1 Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Well the US is entitled to do just that of course. On another rather funny note, they just said on the news that there will be "thousands" of people around the world taking part in marches and protests against war this weekend! "Thousands"!!! Link to post Share on other sites
xxx 2 Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Well it sounded like there were a couple of thousand turned out worldwide. Reports of more are just so anti-American. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts