Two fatalities in Niseko (late January 2013)

[panhead_pete 27]

 

 

What length of rope will you carry Pete?

 

Mine is 10m long mate, now please understand Im no expert and this may or may not be sufficent.

[kokodoko 67]

Turn on TV Asahi right now......! Happo out of bounds special

 

All those misbehaving gaijin is what it pretty much turned out to be...

 

Finished off with a story about a girl from Ireland who they had to send out a search party for. She was found and in good shape..and was charged ....su ju man en.

 

I saw that. Lots of stupid people on that show... mostly gaijin but not exclusively..

[jackson1996 2]

please don't underestimate how difficult (read almost impossible) self rescue from a glide crack is. it is likely that you will have fallen head first with a lot of loose snow underneath you and above you. if your skis have released, you may be able to wriggle around but if they have not, you will very likely be stuck until you are rescued. asphyxiation is a common cause of death in these circumstances.

 

early this season in niseko a very experienced local skier fell into a crack in bounds and was rescued unconscious; it is thought he survived longer than most because he was wearing a full face helmet with a little extra breathing space which stopped him aspirating snow.

 

carrying a short rope is a very good idea on all BC adventures. 10m of 8-10mm rope is fine. a couple of biners too. a few metres of climbing tape good too.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

early this season in niseko a very experienced local skier fell into a crack in bounds and was rescued unconscious; it is thought he survived longer than most because he was wearing a full face helmet with a little extra breathing space which stopped him aspirating snow.

.

Now that is the kind of information we can learn from.

A )the possibility of a full face helmet not only offering protection from injury to the face, but also offering a little extra breathing space in the case of immersion.

B )that he was an experienced local and STILL fell into a crack INBOUNDS.

[zelzel 2]

The best rope for a rescue is the one you have -- versus the one you left at home/car, because it was to heavy/bulky to bother with 'today'.

 

I think I'd be interested most in something between paracord and 6mm climbing line.

 

Maybe paraglider line (core made of made of Dyneema/Spectra, etc.,) would be a good choice to carry? it's amazingly strong and light. 30m of that would weigh almost nothing. one drawback is it's not the best for tying in knots, since the sheath is separate from the core. some random 2.3mm Dyneema line I found is rated at 225 daN (roughly 225 kg linear tensile breaking strength from what i just read) and sells for around $1usd / meter.

 

maybe a 3mm dyneema/spectra high-strength line or 4mm nylon line would strike a good balance. thoughts?

 

and all in all, I think a longer, thinner line works out to be more useful than a shorter, thicker one. one scenario would be to take that 4mm-ish line, threading it under a victim's arms and torso and pulling them out with the other two ends held together (wrapped around the rescuer's back, etc. no knots and twice the load carrying of a single shorter length (which would also need to be knotted).

 

some good info here:

www.prep-blog.com/2012/03/28/the-usefulness-of-paracord/

 

Really appreciating all the useful, thoughtful sharing of info here. Thanks, all..

 

-Cheers

[nippontiger 8]

I reckon something like this would be good...

http://www.amazon.co.jp/BEAL-%E3%83%99%E3%82%A2%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB-8mm-%E3%82%B4%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB%E3%83%87%E3%83%B3%E3%83%89%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4-BE11002/dp/B005TF2KX6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359560314&sr=8-1

I saw a 20 metre pack of something similar in the shop today - didn't look like a huge burden to carry around TBH.

[Go Native 70]

Really Gary? There's been like one death caused by a glide crack as far as I can remember over the last decade at Niseko. There'd have been millions of skier days in that time. The chances of dying in a glide crack at Niseko are probably less than the chances of you slipping over on a sidewalk and dying. It's good to be aware of glide cracks as they do occur every season at Niseko but aren't you guys just taking this all a bit too far purely because of one death?

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Two deaths.

On the same day.

[JellyBelly 1]

Two deaths.

On the same day.

 

That does it then.

If it were only one, but two.... on the same day.....

 

 

I might actually give up skiing.

[panhead_pete 27]

Really Gary? There's been like one death caused by a glide crack as far as I can remember over the last decade at Niseko. There'd have been millions of skier days in that time. The chances of dying in a glide crack at Niseko are probably less than the chances of you slipping over on a sidewalk and dying. It's good to be aware of glide cracks as they do occur every season at Niseko but aren't you guys just taking this all a bit too far purely because of one death?

 

 

Hi GN, hope all is well. I cant and wont speak for others but can shed some light why for me Im interested in this discussion and I've just used this as a learning re what else I can carry in my pack that would be useful in a variety of scenarios not just a glide crack, particularly as Im rather new to BC. In addition Im not likely to be in the Niseko BC anytime soon more so all over Honshu where maybe conditions are different, maybe not, but I know of one guy that has fallen in a large hole already this season riding in an area Im likely to be in and they needed rope to get him out. Am I now "over" prepared" I sure hope so. Maybe it was those years as a "Patrol Leader" in the scouts or now being in my 40s and being more risk adverse then ever. I'll still take risks but want to be the best prepared I can be..

 

This is a pic from the incident last week in Hakuba BC. This and the glide incidents this week is why there is now rope etc in my pack.

 

[iiyamadude 6]

I hope all you naked skiers are re-considering your actions, given what happened in Niseko last week and all.

 

[HelperElfMissy 42]

JellyBelly, that's a bit silly then isn't it.

No one is talking about giving up skiing, or not going back country.

Just learning from accidents to reduce the chances of tragedy and increase the likelyhood of being prepared in the event of an accident.

 

GN was expected to pop up with the usual why worry about one death when hundreds die every day all over the world.

It's his thing. That's OK.

 

But one death in a decade, and two deaths in one day both from glide cracks in different locations, are a bit different to each other.

Clearly an awareness of glide cracks and how to avoid, cope if you get caught up by one, and improve your chances is relevant to many SJers.

 

I know it's relevant to me.

Particularly because of the location and likely amount of time my children, my partner and myself will be spending there, inbounds and back country over the next decade.

[grungy-gonads 54]

Are these two deaths connected in any way?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought they weren't at all.

 

Purely co-incindence, bad timing, whatever you call it.

 

I'm with GN on this one though. The over-reactions and sometimes self-righteous comments when something like this happens are borderline amusing. << This is NOT to say that one should not be prepared and aware if one is to partake in risky activities.

[ippy 66]

Really Gary? There's been like one death caused by a glide crack as far as I can remember over the last decade at Niseko. There'd have been millions of skier days in that time. The chances of dying in a glide crack at Niseko are probably less than the chances of you slipping over on a sidewalk and dying. It's good to be aware of glide cracks as they do occur every season at Niseko but aren't you guys just taking this all a bit too far purely because of one death?

 

 

Hi GN, hope all is well. I cant and wont speak for others but can shed some light why for me Im interested in this discussion and I've just used this as a learning re what else I can carry in my pack that would be useful in a variety of scenarios not just a glide crack, particularly as Im rather new to BC. In addition Im not likely to be in the Niseko BC anytime soon more so all over Honshu where maybe conditions are different, maybe not, but I know of one guy that has fallen in a large hole already this season riding in an area Im likely to be in and they needed rope to get him out. Am I now "over" prepared" I sure hope so. Maybe it was those years as a "Patrol Leader" in the scouts or now being in my 40s and being more risk adverse then ever. I'll still take risks but want to be the best prepared I can be..

 

Youll not be entirely unsurprised to learn that in my two years as a scout i got ZERO badges. I also had search parties looking for us on TWO separate occasions around the hills and forests of Duffus castle on orientation. I wasnt orientated.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

No GG, you are correct.

The two deaths were on opposite sides of the mountain, different nationalities, one local one tourist.

 

The connection is that they were both glide cracks, both on the same day.

Thats telling. Obviously glide cracks are an issue at the moment. It is a good opportunity to discuss and learn.

 

I don't know that spurring on a discussion of what rope would do the job, and how best to identify glide cracks and avoid them is in any way self righteous or over reacting. If that information is 2nd nature to you, great. But it's not for everyone.

[Besniwod 6]

early this season in niseko a very experienced local skier fell into a crack in bounds and was rescued unconscious; it is thought he survived longer than most because he was wearing a full face helmet with a little extra breathing space which stopped him aspirating snow.

.

Now that is the kind of information we can learn from.

A )the possibility of a full face helmet not only offering protection from injury to the face, but also offering a little extra breathing space in the case of immersion.

B )that he was an experienced local and STILL fell into a crack INBOUNDS.

 

I have also heard that full face helmets can fill up with snow and stop the wearer from being able to breathe. I read that one person could only breathe after removing the whole helmet after a fall in the snow. I imagine this could also happen in an avalanche. The only difference being that you would be unable to remove your helmet. The Canadian avalanche website, however, recommends "helmets that protect the face and mouth" as they "increase the chance that you will have an air pocket if buried in an avalanche." I wonder if there is any data to compare the survival rate of avalanche victims with and without full face helmets. Snowmobilers tend to wear full face helmets more often so while I know that as a group they have more avalanche deaths due to causing more avalanches, I wonder if the survival rate of the avalanche victims is different to groups who don't wear full face masks as often.

 

I think the discussion on glide crack safety and rescue is also relevant to tree wells. While I observed glide cracks in Hokkaido, I haven't locally. Tree wells, on the other hand, are an almost constant hazard around here.

[grungy-gonads 54]

Thats telling. Obviously glide cracks are an issue at the moment. It is a good opportunity to discuss and learn.

 

OK.

So were glide cracks not an issue before these two incidents?

[panhead_pete 27]

Im sure they were, but to be honest, due my my limited experience I had not considered them except when they were visible from a lift.This incident and the ensuring discussion has raised my awareness and Im better prepared to help others. How can that not be a good outcome?

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Thats telling. Obviously glide cracks are an issue at the moment. It is a good opportunity to discuss and learn.

 

OK.

So were glide cracks not an issue before these two incidents?

I am sure they have and haven't, depending on the snowpack, weather etc.

They were most definitely mentioned in the Avie Report the day of the accidents.

[grungy-gonads 54]

So now lets all go out and buy rope.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

So now lets all go out and buy rope.

So, do you have rope in your back country backpack?

[grungy-gonads 54]

No. I don't have a back country backpack.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Alrighty.

Not sure what objection you have to others having one and adding rope to it?

 

Ive found myself stuck on my back across a similar hole to the picture Pete put up, opening a bit smaller, collapsed under my butt and to one side - I was taking my weight on my board edge and shoulder blades hoping it didn't go. Also had a full immersion that took half an hour (with it caving back in on me once) to get out of. Both I got out of by myself, but scary enough to inject a bit of caution and scouts motto (Be Prepared).

 

If you are not keen on carrying a rope. No probs. But I don't see why you care if a few people wish to discuss which rope they are looking at for max strength, least weight?

 

 

[nippontiger 8]

Really Gary? There's been like one death caused by a glide crack as far as I can remember over the last decade at Niseko. There'd have been millions of skier days in that time. The chances of dying in a glide crack at Niseko are probably less than the chances of you slipping over on a sidewalk and dying. It's good to be aware of glide cracks as they do occur every season at Niseko but aren't you guys just taking this all a bit too far purely because of one death?

 

Some people were talking about what kind of rope they would use for pulling someone out of a hole and mentioned using paracord. I said that would probably not be good enough and then suggested something that probably would. Whether or not you choose to carry around something like that is going to be down to your preference and down to the kind of places you are likely to venture off to and the kind of riding you are likely to do.

[ippy 66]

In truth my gut reaction to this was "oh god, another thing to add to the list of ways the snow is trying to kill me!"

I knew cracks existed of course. You just need to look at your own hill to see them, but i always thought theyd be late season, and not caused by something as simple as the type of brush under the snow. I liked the bamboo description because it really explicated that this is genuinely an any time phenomenon. And that raises awareness.

Also, knowing they exist makes you forget that you cant often see them until the last minute simply because unlike on a resort, the lifts arent really riding past these areas so you can get a good look at the face on the way up. Unless they are MASSIVE, youre only really going to spot them on the way down or after youve reached the bottom and you can look back up. Thats kinda scary and just goes to show that your first run probably should be taken easier than maybe we all likely do.

I also learned (directly from this thread), just whats killing people. The brain pictures (well mine does) this perfectly tranquil world where you fall down it and youre at the bottom shouting "hello! would someone mind rescuing me!" With no direct experience of them or performing a rescue of them and of very few incidents on them being reported to be honest (first deaths ive ever read about due to them and i do spend a bit of time on teton), its nice to know that its pretty much, fall in, get buried, probably suffocate. Well, i dont mean nice as in good, but nice as in a better understanding of it.

 

What ive really learned from this though is to completely avoid the damn things because falling in one over maybe a meter or so is probably a death sentence (if you ride on your own as loads of us do). If that means reading the avi info (thanks moiwa dude), and completely avoiding those areas, thats what id do. If it means maybe not riding through the gates when theyre shut, you bet your ass i wont. If it means taking it easier on faces i dont know very well, ill be doing that. And if it means i have to go bother a ski patroller (i cant remember who said that in the thread, but its GREAT advice), when im thinking about going out of the gates to find out what they know, then again, ill be doing that.