Chriselle 158 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 So now lets all go out and buy rope. Group buy....maybe get a quantity discount... Link to post Share on other sites
jackson1996 2 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Over the last 20 years or so I have been increasingly concerned by the numbers of people who buy a shovel, piep and probe and think they have BC/avi skills. So I am relieved to see some discussion about BC safety and awareness. The day you stop asking questions is the day you get into strife. Glide cracks and holes are part of the Japanese snowpack and can really form any time depending on the winter. That said you would be unlucky or doing something stupid to end up in one. Don't let it stop you pushing your limits and exploring; just educate yourself. Dont be afraid to talk to locals and ask patrol. Vegetation, terrain and prevailing weather means they frequently form in the same places every year. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 JellyBelly, that's a bit silly then isn't it. No one is talking about giving up skiing, or not going back country. Just learning from accidents to reduce the chances of tragedy and increase the likelyhood of being prepared in the event of an accident. GN was expected to pop up with the usual why worry about one death when hundreds die every day all over the world. It's his thing. That's OK. But one death in a decade, and two deaths in one day both from glide cracks in different locations, are a bit different to each other. Clearly an awareness of glide cracks and how to avoid, cope if you get caught up by one, and improve your chances is relevant to many SJers. I know it's relevant to me. Particularly because of the location and likely amount of time my children, my partner and myself will be spending there, inbounds and back country over the next decade. My comment was about the rope MB. To me that is going overboard. It's good for people to be aware of the dangers of glide cracks but carrying around a climbing rope in your pack whilst skiing at Niseko? Truly that's just a ridiculous over reaction. The worst season for glide cracks at Niseko was from memory the 04/05 seaosn. They were huge that year and opened very early. There was a massive one at the base of Super Ridge which meant it was closed for much of the season. Even Strawberry Fields has two massive cracks across making it rather difficult to ski the bowl. In that season there wasn't any deaths in Niseko from the cracks. I seem to remember there may have been one at Rusutsu, or at least someone was seriously injured there. A mate of mine ended down one over at Moiwa that season. Luckily he wasn't injured. Anyway I'm more than happy for people to make themselves aware of the dangers but to start suggesting people should be packing rope is really just getting silly. Considering the rick factors you'd probably be better advised to wear a helmet whilst walking around the village. That's far more dangerous. Link to post Share on other sites
nippontiger 8 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I don't have a back country pack either TBH. But I'd say if someone has a pack with beacon, shovel, probe, snowshoes etc - probably costing 50k yen or more, and they are venturing off into places where they need it, it probably wouldn't hurt to stick in there 10 metres of the rope I suggested which would cost 2000 odd yen, weigh less than half a pound, and take up not much more than half a litre of space. Whether or not a bit of slack country riding at Niseko warrants such a pack or not is probably a matter of personal preference - some people might just feel better if they are fully prepared for whatever happens even if the chances are, as GN pointed out, probably pretty small. Link to post Share on other sites
Besniwod 6 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Over the last 20 years or so I have been increasingly concerned by the numbers of people who buy a shovel, piep and probe and think they have BC/avi skills. So I am relieved to see some discussion about BC safety and awareness. The day you stop asking questions is the day you get into strife. Jackson1996, I would like to ask you some questions if you don't mind: Do you know how the skier you mentioned fell in the crack? Was he skiing alone? Did somebody see him fall? How long was he in the crack for? How was he removed from the crack (you said he was unconscious so I am assuming he was unable to assist with the rescue)? Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Don't get me wrong I have no problem with people choosing to take a whole damned tent with them if that's what they want to do. What do I care what other people choose to do? I just think the safety nazis go a bit overboard at times on issues where the risk is actually quite small. And yet the same people will generally quite happily get in a car and drive each day which is probably statistically the most dangerous thing they could ever do. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Agreed Gary. GN, you know I respect your Niseko, nay...Hokkaido knowledge. My response was not picking at you, more querying why jelly belly thought it so silly a discussion (rope, what works, what doesn't, is it worth it) as to throw out the silly 'let's all give up skiing' comment. Personally slack country is all it is for me to date. But I'm ready (and so are my cubs) to get the gear, get the training (a must in my opinion if you are to actually use the equipment properly and avoid using the equipment more often than not) and venture farther afield. It's all interesting discussion to me. Lots of people thought it was overkill me carrying a first aid kit as a water polo manager, but the tape has come in handy for taping fingers together, quick repair on caps, taping a broken bag back together, and the antihistamine was super handy when my cub was stung by a bee on his neck while refereeing. It took next to no room in my bag. If rope is used once, then it's been worth carrying it... Link to post Share on other sites
jackson1996 2 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Over the last 20 years or so I have been increasingly concerned by the numbers of people who buy a shovel, piep and probe and think they have BC/avi skills. So I am relieved to see some discussion about BC safety and awareness. The day you stop asking questions is the day you get into strife. Jackson1996, I would like to ask you some questions if you don't mind: Do you know how the skier you mentioned fell in the crack? Was he skiing alone? Did somebody see him fall? How long was he in the crack for? How was he removed from the crack (you said he was unconscious so I am assuming he was unable to assist with the rescue)? Besniwood, it was concealed by a deep layer of fresh snow. I do not know the skier but have a mutual friend who was skiing with him on the day. There were three of them skiing. The other two got to the bottom before him. They waited several minutes, couldn't see him and were immediately concerned. One stayed at the bottom, they called patrol and the other went up to go over the same run to check. Patrol ended up finding him. It was about 30 minutes from the time they think he fell in until the time he was retrieved. Correct he was unable to assist with rescue as he was unconscious. I don't know exactly how they removed him but could find out. Keep in mind these are very rare incidents particularly if you look at incidents as a ratio of total participants; but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do whatever you can to minimise risk - people die in cracks and avis every year in Japan (and elsewhere of course). Hope this helps. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I just see it as another potential barrier to people getting out there and having a bit of fun MB. Ratcheting up the fear factor for something that has occurred extremely rarely. As I pointed out earlier these cracks occur every year in Niseko. So one day this year it all went bad for a couple of people. Over the last 40 or 50 years how many people have skied at Niseko and how many have died in glide cracks? How many 100's of thousands have skied out throught the gates in the last decade? How many deaths have there been in the last decade from glide cracks? These are the only ones I can recall. Niseko has proven year after year after year that regardless of how stupid or ignorant people are about the potential dangers it is actually quite a safe place to enjoy snowsports. Sure there's some risks but there's a risk stepping out of our door each day and getting in a car or riding a bike or just walking on a foot path. It's good to be aware that these glide cracks exist and it would be good if ski patrol possibly indicated on maps where they currently are but I'd hate to think people choose not to get out there and ski through a gate purely because of these two incidents in one day when there has been 1000's of days and 100's of thousands of people who've headed out previously without any problem. The idea that purely because of this one day this year we might now consider it irresponsible not to carry rope in our packs or you're being unsafe if you haven't got it with you is just ridiculous. I mean there's a chance I might get hit by space junk re-entering the atmosphere one day. It doesn't mean I walk around with a portable bomb shelter the whole time does it? Link to post Share on other sites
JellyBelly 1 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 It doesn't mean I walk around with a portable bomb shelter the whole time does it? I think you should. It would certainly decrease the chances of something happening to you. Especially as someone got knocked off their bike the other day in Canada. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I just see it as another potential barrier to people getting out there and having a bit of fun MB. Ratcheting up the fear factor for something that has occurred extremely rarely. As I pointed out earlier these cracks occur every year in Niseko. So one day this year it all went bad for a couple of people. Over the last 40 or 50 years how many people have skied at Niseko and how many have died in glide cracks? How many 100's of thousands have skied out throught the gates in the last decade? How many deaths have there been in the last decade from glide cracks? These are the only ones I can recall. Niseko has proven year after year after year that regardless of how stupid or ignorant people are about the potential dangers it is actually quite a safe place to enjoy snowsports. Sure there's some risks but there's a risk stepping out of our door each day and getting in a car or riding a bike or just walking on a foot path. It's good to be aware that these glide cracks exist and it would be good if ski patrol possibly indicated on maps where they currently are but I'd hate to think people choose not to get out there and ski through a gate purely because of these two incidents in one day when there has been 1000's of days and 100's of thousands of people who've headed out previously without any problem. The idea that purely because of this one day this year we might now consider it irresponsible not to carry rope in our packs or you're being unsafe if you haven't got it with you is just ridiculous. I mean there's a chance I might get hit by space junk re-entering the atmosphere one day. It doesn't mean I walk around with a portable bomb shelter the whole time does it?Agreed.But the discussion is a worthy one for those who are interested. Whether or not they decide to carry rope, or even a pack. And even if they decide that for them, in light of this information that they are unprepared to take that risk. It'd be a day by day proposition for me. Other may be bigger risk takers, others lower... Individual difference makes the world go round, but informed individual choices are even better. Link to post Share on other sites
Thundercat 60 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Ratcheting up the fear factor for something that has occurred extremely rarely. It's good to be aware that these glide cracks exist and it would be good if ski patrol possibly indicated on maps where they currently are but I'd hate to think people choose not to get out there and ski through a gate purely because of these two incidents in one day when there has been 1000's of days and 100's of thousands of people who've headed out previously without any problem. If someone is scared enough to stay away because of this news then they most likely shouldn't be out there in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Ratcheting up the fear factor for something that has occurred extremely rarely. It's good to be aware that these glide cracks exist and it would be good if ski patrol possibly indicated on maps where they currently are but I'd hate to think people choose not to get out there and ski through a gate purely because of these two incidents in one day when there has been 1000's of days and 100's of thousands of people who've headed out previously without any problem. If someone is scared enough to stay away because of this news then they most likely shouldn't be out there in the first place. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. Link to post Share on other sites
panhead_pete 27 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Why has this discussion ended up being Niseko centric? Given the two tragic deaths happened there but its a discussion with value across a wide range locations, a lot of which have higher risk profiles then just rolling out a gate at Niseko, as pointed out by GN and others. Ride with rope or dont, its your call. For me Im packing some after this discussion and seeing the pic from Hakuba so as to be able to help others if need be and possibly myself. Will it reduce the likelihood side of the risk equation no, could it alter the consequence yes. Just the same as the recco reflector built into my new jacket. Hopefully none of us ever have to test any of this equipment in an emergency situation. Link to post Share on other sites
7-11 2 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Why has this discussion ended up being Niseko centric? Because that's where these incidents that are being discussed happened and what started the discussion. Link to post Share on other sites
klingon 10 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 You know what, I think you might just be onto something there 7-11. Well analysed! Does it matter? Link to post Share on other sites
Wizz 11 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I think we should focus on the same subject, but make it Mt Granview centric. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
panhead_pete 27 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Why has this discussion ended up being Niseko centric? Given the two tragic deaths happened there but its a discussion with value across a wide range locations, You guys struggling with this concept that people actually go other places then Niseko, I guess I should have been clearer??? Link to post Share on other sites
Wizz 11 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Why does it matter what location? Link to post Share on other sites
panhead_pete 27 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 That was my point - it doesnt. But most of the posts kept going on about the risks at Niseko rather than EVERY where Link to post Share on other sites
Wizz 11 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Hey everyone, don't mention Niseko in this thread any more. Pete ain't allowing it! Link to post Share on other sites
panhead_pete 27 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Thanks for you awesome contribution Wizz - stellar effort and contributuion to a thread focussed on the death of two people and what can be learn't from it with a view of improving the safety of the SJ community. Whilst other contributers to this thread and I have alternate views they contributed to the discussion in a meaningful way based upon extensive experience, what have you added? 2/10ths of .... Champ! Link to post Share on other sites
Wizz 11 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Cheers! I was actually going to contribute something, but it involved Niseko and so now I'm confused as to whether it's allowed or not.... Link to post Share on other sites
ProbablyaCrazyPerson 2 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Just out of interest when did the gater thing start up there in N*****? Link to post Share on other sites
pie-eater 207 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Just out of interest when did the gater thing start up there in N*****? That was when the Aussies went there, perhaps Steve Irwin. Link to post Share on other sites
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