Tubby Beaver 209 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Having a "friendly" debate with an acquaintance on Facebook about a story in Forbes magazine lampooning the UN for its stance on Gun control. Needless to say he's a Yank-Republican that believes in free economy, zero government meddling and that George W is his wet dream. I just can't believe that in this day and age, Americans can defend their "right" to have guns and feel that a law that was passed in the late 18th Century, to cope with late 18th Century problems is still able to be fitted to today's situations. Of course a lot of laws are still relevant, but a lot aren't and have been reformed or done away with. Why do the American right feel so strongly about something that has crippled their country for at least the last 50 or 60 years?? Link to post Share on other sites
Slippery Jim 65 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 ``crippled their country'' -- rather a strong statement of opinion. In what way do you think the U.S. is crippled? Link to post Share on other sites
mitchpee 10 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: Tubby Beaver Having a "friendly" debate with an acquaintance on Facebook about a story in Forbes magazine lampooning the UN for its stance on Gun control. Needless to say he's a Yank-Republican that believes in free economy, zero government meddling and that George W is his wet dream. I just can't believe that in this day and age, Americans can defend their "right" to have guns and feel that a law that was passed in the late 18th Century, to cope with late 18th Century problems is still able to be fitted to today's situations. Of course a lot of laws are still relevant, but a lot aren't and have been reformed or done away with. Why do the American right feel so strongly about something that has crippled their country for at least the last 50 or 60 years?? Hmm I don't know if gun control has really been the issue behind our "crippling"? The US probably has the highest murder rate of all industrialized countries. There are cities here that are essentially constant warzones with gangs. If anyone has been to Westside Detroit, Southside Chicago, or near where I lived in Roxbury-Boston, Mass it is pretty evident there are problems. It's one of the reasons we have a perpetual system of poverty here. The thing people need to understand behind these murders is 9/10 times they are done with ILLEGAL weapons. Yes our right to bear arms forbids people convicted of crimes to own firearms. So if we actually had politicians that cracked down on this illegalities already happening, instead of waging a "war on drugs" and going about taking down street crime with a forceful "throw em in jail" manner, we may actually get something done. Also, something I don't agree with is the concealed weapon license. From every study I have seen it usually ends up worsening a scenario and most people are not properly qualified to carry a gun outside their property. In reality, the gun control law is there still so Americans can still feel like they have rights (or as George Carlin elegantly put it "privileges"). For an overwhelming majority of people, their lives will not be threatened enough here to ever have to use a gun. However, since we are a country obsessed with Hollywood I guarantee if you surveyed people they would actually think they are likely to stumble across a robber in the middle of the night and have to use a gun, thanks movies and tv shows! So to say gun control = reason for problems isn't really correct. I would say it's a lack of enforcement of current gun laws and some deep rooted social problems that need to be fixed first. Link to post Share on other sites
mitchpee 10 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 or did you mean this right to bear arms... Link to post Share on other sites
soubriquet 0 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Excellent. A gun control dialogue of the deaf bunfight. I fully support the right of Americans to bear arms. The USA is the American's nation and they have the right to run their society the way they want. It is no business whatsoever for outsiders to criticise or judge Americans for making and insisting their choice on guns. Equally, Americans should refrain from imposing their values on others. I like guns but I am very happy to live in a society where they are banned. Maybe we should be looking for the mote in our own eye. Link to post Share on other sites
Mantas 3 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Quote: The thing people need to understand behind these murders is 9/10 times they are done with ILLEGAL weapons. Yes our right to bear arms forbids people convicted of crimes to own firearms. I don't think that this is very relevant as the the easy availability and access to legal guns is what creates a huge flow of guns into the community. Link to post Share on other sites
Tex 3 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: MitchPee or did you mean this right to bear arms... What about the right to arm bears. That would cripple the country... well parts of Alaska Link to post Share on other sites
charlotte 0 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 I don't really get why people would want to own guns? Link to post Share on other sites
BillTheBinMan 0 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Shoot stuff and "defend themselves". Or something like that. Link to post Share on other sites
tokabochi 9 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 If people couldn't have guns, or didn't want guns, movies and tv shows certainly wouldn't be as interesting. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 -the illegal element in society still seem to get access to guns, legal right to bear arms or not. I think the biggest reduction in making legal gun ownership more difficult (like it is in Australia), is in accidental injury and impulse shootings. Kids playing with guns, guns going off while people are cleaning them or checking them out, senile old farts shooting their neighbors, bullied kids walking into school packing arms... I don't like guns. I am glad they are not commonplace in Australia. But I am also aware that more bad guys have guns here than good guys. Link to post Share on other sites
brit-gob 9 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 I bet a bad guy with a gun is much better at using it, and more likely to use it, than a good guy with a gun. Link to post Share on other sites
Slippery Jim 65 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 The Right to Bare Arms edited as it was breaking up the page - see gg's thread below Link to post Share on other sites
snowbender 3 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 What they heck is that? Link to post Share on other sites
grungy-gonads 54 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 DiGriz was trying to post this Click to reveal.. Link to post Share on other sites
grungy-gonads 54 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: Tubby Beaver Having a "friendly" debate with an acquaintance on Facebook about a story in Forbes magazine lampooning the UN for its stance on Gun control. Needless to say he's a Yank-Republican that believes in free economy, zero government meddling and that George W is his wet dream. I just can't believe that in this day and age, Americans can defend their "right" to have guns and feel that a law that was passed in the late 18th Century, to cope with late 18th Century problems is still able to be fitted to today's situations. Of course a lot of laws are still relevant, but a lot aren't and have been reformed or done away with. Why do the American right feel so strongly about something that has crippled their country for at least the last 50 or 60 years?? I think we saw an answer to that in another thread recently. Can't remember which one Link to post Share on other sites
scouser 4 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: MitchPee Also, something I don't agree with is the concealed weapon license. From every study I have seen it usually ends up worsening a scenario and most people are not properly qualified to carry a gun outside their property. Whats that Mitch? Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted June 10, 2011 Author Share Posted June 10, 2011 is anyone else thread uber long on the side?? Mitch nailed all the points in which I think lack of gun control has crippled America. Mantas (I think) covered what my answer to Mitch's other point that the guns are mostly illegally owned, in that the fact that they are for sale in the 1st place means that there will be back door sales into the black market simply because of the number of guns that are available. Gun crime still happens in countries where its difficult to own a gun, like the UK, but it is tiny in comparison to the US. The US often has more gun related deaths than some pretty damn hairy places in africa, it regularly had higher gun related deaths than Northern Ireland in the 80's and there was a civil war of over 30 years that was being fought. In another discussion with the same friend, he stated why he was against Nationalised Healthcare, he stated that he didn't think Healthcare was a right and that anything that had a detrimental effect on another couldn't be deemed "a right". But in the next breath he felt that gun ownership was a right that all US-citizens should have.......I couldn't believe that he would count gun ownership as a right and not healthcare....I was gobsmacked. Soubs, I realise that the yanks can run their own country how they see fit, but that doesn't mean we can't debate the pros and cons of their laws Link to post Share on other sites
Slippery Jim 65 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Thanks gg, much appreciate the help there. Link to post Share on other sites
mitchpee 10 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Originally Posted By: Tubby Beaver is anyone else thread uber long on the side?? Mitch nailed all the points in which I think lack of gun control has crippled America. Mantas (I think) covered what my answer to Mitch's other point that the guns are mostly illegally owned, in that the fact that they are for sale in the 1st place means that there will be back door sales into the black market simply because of the number of guns that are available. Gun crime still happens in countries where its difficult to own a gun, like the UK, but it is tiny in comparison to the US. The US often has more gun related deaths than some pretty damn hairy places in africa, it regularly had higher gun related deaths than Northern Ireland in the 80's and there was a civil war of over 30 years that was being fought. In another discussion with the same friend, he stated why he was against Nationalised Healthcare, he stated that he didn't think Healthcare was a right and that anything that had a detrimental effect on another couldn't be deemed "a right". But in the next breath he felt that gun ownership was a right that all US-citizens should have.......I couldn't believe that he would count gun ownership as a right and not healthcare....I was gobsmacked. Soubs, I realise that the yanks can run their own country how they see fit, but that doesn't mean we can't debate the pros and cons of their laws My response to you and Mantas would be that I am against anyone owning anything that is automatic. It's also hard for me to justify owning handguns since they are the overwhelming majority of gun crimes and murder here in the US. I have used handguns for sport and it's very fun, but I would never need to own one. That's a debate in my own head I still haven't concurred. Scouser, the concealed weapons permit means that almost anyone can take a 2 day class and carry a gun for the rest of their lives in PUBLIC. It is only in some states but to me it's pointless in 99.9% of areas. There are cops that are trigger happy in the US after years of training with a gun. I think there are far too many racist, paranoid, and emotionally charged people in the US for this law to exist. Link to post Share on other sites
Mantas 3 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Mitch, just how easy is it to buy a gun in the US. I've heard stories about some states where the average punter, without a criminal record, can walk into a gun shop walk out 10 minutes later with a gun. Is that true? BTW- I think it's DiGriz's post that stuffed up this thread. Seeing as no one can understand it. Do you mind deleting it? Link to post Share on other sites
SnowJapan Moderator SnowJapan.Com#4 5 Posted June 10, 2011 SnowJapan Moderator Share Posted June 10, 2011 I edited that post as the code was breaking up some browsers Link to post Share on other sites
pie-eater 207 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Well in movies and in tv dramas, people seem to be able to get hold of them easy enough. Hope that helps. Link to post Share on other sites
Ezorisu 0 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Originally Posted By: Mantas Mitch, just how easy is it to buy a gun in the US. I've heard stories about some states where the average punter, without a criminal record, can walk into a gun shop walk out 10 minutes later with a gun. Is that true? I kind-of think that is an urban legend, or Hollywood. I come from a State with a 10-day waiting period. Considering that this waiting period is partly for Law Enforcement to run a background check on you with their own records and with the Federal Government, I can't imagine the "wheels of government" working 10-minutes fast, especially across jurisdictions. Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted June 10, 2011 Author Share Posted June 10, 2011 Link to post Share on other sites
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