OzOzOz 2 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Ocean11. Scoobydoo. No more posts along that line of thought, OK? I am moderator! Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 The ATM charge is bogus no matter what country or company does it. Heres another point if the resorts do open up bounderies some of the stuff we ride know would no will be placed off limits. The resorts here werent planned to open up this terrain. Some of this stuff ends in terrain traps. Gullies that you have to really watch out for, dam those dams. Terrain that could avlanche onto courses. Massive cliffs that cant be skied. Do I want to pay no. but if something like this is popular it could take off. We could also just tell the resort I dont have the money to pay that but I really want that challengeing terrain. From what I have heard from friends this year Tsugaike has opened up a bit and people have skied some crazy long lines all day. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted March 27, 2003 Author Share Posted March 27, 2003 Fattwins, that's a good idea! Link to post Share on other sites
jared 0 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 who is to say that rideing the pow is free in other lands. Perhaps the cost of aveie control and patroling these areas is built in to the price of the lift ticket in other countries where it isnt here resulting in (relatively) cheaper passes here. c.f jackson hole = $61 = 7300en Niseko Hirafu = 4500en I realise exchange rates/running costs/environments/services provided etc etc are all different so hard to compare but I think its wrong to assume that it is "free" to ride in the trees in other places. Link to post Share on other sites
AET 0 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 jared, good post - totally with you on that. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted March 27, 2003 Author Share Posted March 27, 2003 jared, that's a good point, but isn't the DBD selling you the illusion of safety for real money but with no real safety provided? Also, a lot of the places that could be opened in Japan aren't prone to avalanches anyway, so prevention wouldn't be a cost. It would vary from resort to resort. Link to post Share on other sites
jared 0 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 its only 1000 yen for the season - thats pretty cheap compared to paying for your rescue if your out of bounds and injured. Being in the club is safer that just ridinjg out of bounds - 1) you dont have to do the exploring for dangers that you have to do if your venturing for the first time in to a closed area 2) injuries that stop you from riding/walking out but dont kill you will no longer be terminal. ie if you break you legs while you are alone you wont spend the night freezing to deth. Its far from ideal but its a start. However, I would hate to have such a programme run at my field as it would indicate to the masses that it is OK ot go in the trees and then like NZ I would have to race to beat others for the freshies. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 I will say that the prices in north America are just stupid. most resorts are charging 60 plus dollars nowadays. If they dont get it under controll people wont be able to afford to go very many times. In Canada its now cheaper to buy a case of and a bag of w d than to go sking for a day. Now thats a big problem. Link to post Share on other sites
danz 0 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 yah... unfortunately, the US has a few huuuuge skiing companies (American Skiing Co. comes to mind) that have really jacked up prices over the years, because they own all the good resorts (especially in the east...)...you pay over $50 for a day-pass on the east coast, and these mtns. are like 80% man-made snow...responsibilities of patrol on the East coast are not nearly as intense as west coast... but passes can still be a bargain...and at least I know what I'm getting at most of these resorts... danz Link to post Share on other sites
steeno 0 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 resorts in the states are definitely making a boat load of money. but they are also providing some serious bang for your buck. the facilities are top notch, you have trams, gangolas, high speed lifts, world class lodges (base, mid mountain, and top), some of the best parks, open boundries, and patrol safety. Now, the majority of the people who ride these places are gapers in their bogner designer suits and are pulling in over six figures. so in essence they get what they pay for. for the weekend warriors and locals there is always a way around it with serious discounts or bro-deals. and they are the ones really utilizing the off-piste (off-course). Not just the stuff between the trails but the stuff that you can get seriously hurt on, that's just beyond the boundries. although, at most places in the states there is plenty of stuff to kill yourself on that are within resort. but the policy (for most of it) is that if you wish to find it and ride it you can. which basically means you are free to make that decision. to scoobies point, no not everything is free. especially if you are riding a lift to access it. in that case you have paid for the ride and you are paying for the goods. it might have been better to phrase it that you have a right to it. it is a mountain, no one owns it, and it should be open for anyone and everyone in this world to enjoy. regardless of how dangerous or how easy it is. we have the right to it and we have a right to ride it. now the sticky part is that by riding a lift to get to it the resorts becomes somewhat liable. thus it becomes a litigation issue. and that's where it seems things differ across this world. europeans, who take responsiblity for their own actions, have an extremely open policy which basically says take it all. the states, being lawsuit happy, have dealt with a very closed boundry. that is until 2-3 years ago when things started opening up. however, there are strings attached. but some very common sense strings....buddy, transceiver, shovel, common sense and you can go. Canada, who are somewhat crazy to begin with, is closer to europe in that if your crazy enough to try it give it a go. but of course in all these places there is active bombing and continuous control so the danger isn't as great to others. there would be nothing worse in this world then to climb into a chute out of bounds only to have it release and slide back in bounds and take out a family. i've never skied japan, let alone been there. but now that i'm living in this part of the world i plan on making my way up there next season. the only time i ski the groomed runs is either first thing in the morning or at the end of the day. everything else had better be between the trees, finding cliff drops, or getting into places that make me sweat (either steep as nuts or a boot pack). listening to all this banter from my northern brothers makes me worry that i will not be able to continue this regiment. that the patrollers in the area are going to punish me for doing something that is so natural. and being an patroller that infuriates me. Link to post Share on other sites
snowboard_freak 0 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Hey Fattwins if you think North America is expensive try riding over. It is $80 (AUD) a day at most of the larger places. It is a friggin' joke, especially when compared to quality and quantity of both snow and terrain in North America and just about every other country that gets snow. I'm just glad that i can get discounted season passes. Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 7200 yen for one day! The terrain may be better but you don't get more time and energy to ride it. I think Japanese resorts could do a lot more, but it sounds like some people are misrepresenting overseas resorts. From dbs experience and what others have said about places like Fernie in the BC interior, at overseas resorts where you can ride extreme stuff off the lifts, those lifts will not necessarily be going when you've gone to the trouble of getting there. When the weather's bad, they can stay closed for days. In dbs case, IIRC he couldn't ride anything decent for a week (?). That doesn't sound like what I would call "unconditional lift access to the mountain". Many Japanese resorts get more snow than Switzerland, so keeping such areas open would presumably be a bigger problem. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Yeah The resorts can close nowill close lifts and terrain when they think its bad. When you get caught duckinga rope and boy you will in Canada you are gone for sometimes 2 weeks. Stuff gets skied out fast and you better know the mountain. That still does not justify the high price. You will kill the up and comers 70 bucks to ski a bunny hill. Link to post Share on other sites
badmigraine 0 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Reading some of the comments here, I get the feeling some posters haven't yet experienced the kind of terrain I am talking about, or they ski/board a different style, or they are still near the beginning of their great lifetime voyage of sliding and haven't yet found enjoyment on this type of terrain. It sounds like this may even be a theoretical issue to some. Folks, I am not talking so much about extreme backcountry avalanche terrain here. Rather, I am talking about pretty much the same old mountains we ride even in Japan, but you can just come down anywhere you want in the resort area. You can scoot anywhere, find trees or drops or slopes that are rather steep or enjoyably treed, even get stuck in the trees if you are wanting to do that. As for lift closures, I don't understand the point. I've seen lifts closed in both Japan and the US, to save resort money, because of high winds, because the served area has not yet been avalanche-controlled. I've seen the highest lifts at Mammoth are often closed due to wind. I've seen some very exposed lifts at Fernie and Sunshine closed due to horrendous winds. I went to Furano and 1/3 of the mountain was closed every day even though conditions were fine and mild. What does this have to do with anything? My point has nothing to do with dangerous lifts across yawning chasms (although this is not a bad subject for another post!). I am talking about regular lifts in the resort area. You go up, and then you come down--wherever you want, instead of being shunted like a lemming into tracked-out groomers with orange ropes all around. Areas that are very steep or challenging are not roped off as "too dangerous". If an area is not patrolled, there is a sign saying so, but you can go in there and ride at your own risk, and should be prepared to pay for any rescue operations. If an area is avalanche-prone, then it is closed until cleared. As for the point about what portion of a lift ticket goes to powder vs. groomed vs. patrolled terrain, or the argument that the lift ticket price is related to the skiable acreage and frequency of patrol (patrollers are mostly volunteers, you know, and they often only get a free season pass and nothing else), well, heh, are you joking? You must realize that it is a much bigger, badder story than this. Of course there is some complex relation between all resort costs and lift ticket prices. This relation would change depending on the resort and all of its characteristics, popularity, weather, economic trends, etc. And many, many other factors are involved. Even if we focus on the cost you isolate, wouldn't ungroomed terrain cost less to operate than groomed? Grooming equipment, maintenance, fuel, salary etc. costs a lot. It's usually done EVERY NIGHT. The resort owns or leases the entire area, so it is more profitable to make use of all of it instead of roping it off. You might argue that the trees and ungroomed areas cause accidents or problems that add to the resort's costs. Well, that's something difficult to prove, but it doesn't seem to be the case here in the US. In fact, there are many more accidents in the terrain pipe, park and on beginner & intermediate slopes. For most resorts, the main factor in setting lift ticket prices is, What will the market bear? Another way to say this is, How much will our customers pay? And if it is a snob resort like Aspen or Park City, the answer is A LOT. You will find the prices of sandwiches, coffee, beer and lodging to be proportionately high. The majority of customers don't even pay the face price. They come in on package deals or discount tickets or coupons or student tickets or week passes or season passes. That being said, what about these prices: Alta lift ticket: still $40. We paid $42 per day for the Salt Lake City SuperPass, good at Alta, Snowbird, Brighton, etc. I paid $48/day at Big Sky last week and this included a HOT BREAKFAST BUFFET (I brought ziploc bags and took extra to eat on the lifts as my lunch). We got a great deal on hotel/lifts in Tahoe too. Only the uninformed and the last-minute-purchasers pay $60 and $70 for a lift ticket. Really, this is getting complicated here. There is no doubt that we don't see the variety and challenge of terrain in Japan that we do in the US, Canada and Europe. Why? Because the resorts either haven't developed it, or else it's staring them in the face but they have roped it off. Why? I'll venture a guess. It's the "lowest common denominator", kindergarten-supervision schtick we see all over Japan. And, it is the lack of people in Japan (present company excepted, of course!) who would ever ask or want to ski the kind of terrain taken for granted in other places. Here is another example of the same thing. When I got to Japan in 1995 the local manager of the Mitsubishi Bank was asked why the ATMs were closed at 5 pm and all weekend. His answer: "We don't think our customers want to withdraw their money on evenings and weekends..." The business tells the customer what the customer wants. Anybody notice anything funny about that? I can only hope the Japanese ski resorts wise up the way the banks eventually did. In the case of the banks, there was pressure from Citibank's 24-hour ATMs and many complaints from salarymen who'd traveled abroad and found to their amazement that an ATM is a thing that works BEST on evenings and weekends. This Double Black Diamond Club reminds me of the way we used to pull together as a team in high school to petition the school to put lowfat milk in the vending machines, or to allow us to chew gum at athletic contests. There were bushy-tailed student leaders who stroked faculty and administration a lot, got to wear pins and armbands to show their status, achievement or sellout level, whatever you wanted to call it. Ski resort customers are not ignorant kids to be coddled and browbeaten. In a shrinking market, the resorts should be doing the opposite: studying trends and customer preferences and what their counterparts in other prefectures and countries are doing. Like most people, at work I had to smoke a lot of weiners every day just to get by. I really don't want to have to do that at a ski resort, so I would never join the DBD club. I wish them good luck sporting that armband in that patch of trees that runs out onto the Beginner Course. Link to post Share on other sites
big-will 7 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 GREAT POST, badmigraine dude Link to post Share on other sites
griller 9 Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 I have a J friend who I think joined in this. I haven't met him for a while, but I'll let you know any feedback I get from him. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 I had friends that lived in fernie And we spent a lot of time in Fish and surronding BC badmigraine. I know what your talking about. Those resorts were designed with the idea that every could be skied. Terrain traps are off limits there period. Can stuff be opened here yes, should it be opened here yes, do we need to show a demand for h--ll yes. This will and could mean investment for the resorts. If you control something and set off an avlanche where will it end? On a run? LEt us show a demand. Remember what we get in return for more open slopes, will be less fresh tracks for everyone. Link to post Share on other sites
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