Insulating Sea Containers

[panhead_pete 27]

Thanks Bobby, I had considered that and may possibly go that way but really like the aesthetic of my current plan especially from the side which you will see as you come down the road.

 

 

This plan also results in two small balconys out the back, one of which will have the spa. I need to chat with the architect re the structural aspects as I dont want any support poles. In fact I am hoping to hide the supporting structures under the whole thing if possible so it appears to be floating. As I said above - my mind wanders a lot

 

 

Originally Posted By: RobBright

For what size?

 

360m2 Rob.

[stemik 14]

Will you be allowed to build 3 stories high in Echoland?

 

Stil need to get those pics to you!

[RobBright 35]

360m2?!

 

 

wow! that's massive for 5.5mil

[panhead_pete 27]

Originally Posted By: stemik

Will you be allowed to build 3 stories high in Echoland?

Stil need to get those pics to you!

Thanks mate, If I have read the building regs right the height limit is 18m in Echoland.

[stemik 14]

18m should be fine for 3 stories.

I think its 13m in Misorano, and not allowed to go over 2 stories.

[panhead_pete 27]

THANKS FOR ALL THE INPUT GUYS, PLEASE KEEP IT COMING!

 

Yep each of the High Cube containers is 2.9m high on the outside so if I was of the mind to I could go up further but that would seem somewhat overbearing in that location. I really need to respect what else is already there including the landscape.

 

 

Sorry guys the pic above of the outlines is out of scale and this one is better. The bottom one is my prefered option at this stage. Having been a fan of Japanese contemporay architecture for a while the use of a box isnt anything new, I just didnt want a standard shape box.

 

As you can see the total overhang is the equilivant of 30ft of container (10ft on level 2, 20ft on level 3) whilst 50ft is on the other side of it. Now Im no engineer but all things being equal structurally it should be cool especially as all the containers will be secured together.

 

 

 

[Tubby Beaver 209]

how much will the weight of the snow affect the balance point of the structure?

[panhead_pete 27]

Great question mate, thanks. I did this to think about it as I am a picture guy when I need to understand things. It appears it would have a nuetral inpact if there was no snow on the second floor balcony at the rear of the house?????

 

PS Hope the pics are showing as I only see the little red X

 

[iiyamadude 6]

Those things look wild.

 

If you got fed up with Hakks, could you up shop and move on over to some other place.

[SantaCruz 0]

Very cool stuff PP. Best of luck with it.

[stemik 14]

not a great pic...but nice looking container cabin in Hakuba.

I noticed they were fitted with tatami mats inside

[js 0]

Originally Posted By: panhead_pete

Great question mate, thanks. I did this to think about it as I am a picture guy when I need to understand things. It appears it would have a nuetral inpact if there was no snow on the second floor balcony at the rear of the house?????

PS Hope the pics are showing as I only see the little red X

The structure appears proportionately balanced - not a good idea. You'll need supports under the two overhanging portions i.e. forgot about 'live loads' e.g. furniture, people, wind, snow (ice), etc. Personally, I'd be sticking the whole structure on a concrete slab, which extends outwards to support the two columns (the columns could be minimalist 'T' shaped to reduce the visible impact on the structure).

The slab, designed for earthquakes, could also be coloured (oxides) to further reduce or contrast its appearance.

It's likely a slab will be the most expensive component of the build = certified structural engineering component. To reduce costs, simple things like having all wet areas (showers, toilets, laundry, kitchen) along one side means you reduce piping (plumbing is expensive). Don't put any conduits through the slab = maintenance nighmare.

My 2c worth ...

[panhead_pete 27]

Thanks Stemik, appreciate you stopping and getting the pic. Are they one or two wide?

 

Thanks for the input SubZero, greatly appreciated, engineering isnt my strength!!! But just the news I didnt want to hear but neeeded to I guess as I really didnt want supports under the front over hangs for aesthetic reasons but obviously dont want the whole thing to fall over. I was thinking that if it was all welded together, then welded to the supporting structure underneath it would be OK.

 

Do you have any references I can read to lean about building in earthquake zones? Seems I better bone up on this. Thanks again.

 

 

 

[stemik 14]

one wide

[js 0]

Originally Posted By: panhead_pete

Thanks Stemik, appreciate you stopping and getting the pic. Are they one or two wide?

Thanks for the input SubZero, greatly appreciated, engineering isnt my strength!!! But just the news I didnt want to hear but neeeded to I guess as I really didnt want supports under the front over hangs for aesthetic reasons but obviously dont want the whole thing to fall over. I was thinking that if it was all welded together, then welded to the supporting structure underneath it would be OK.

Do you have any references I can read to lean about building in earthquake zones? Seems I better bone up on this. Thanks again.

Welding isn't a strong joining method - also need to bolt/rivet.

Try New Zealand and Australian Standards as a starting point.

http://www.standards.co.nz/
http://www.standards.org.au/

e.g. type in 'earthquake'

(Japan will probably have similar documents, though I believe the Kiwi's are world leaders in such stuff).

Also, the grade of the property, soil type, weather conditions (wind gusts, snow depths, temperature variations, etc) all need to be factored into the equation. Suggest you collect as much data about your area/property and proposed material (containers) and design as you can then have a chat to a certified structural engineer.

Not as hard as it sounds, just work through it systematically, so don't get put-off.

[NoFakie 45]

In some places in Hakuba I think there is also a setback rule about not exceeding 45 degrees (?) measured from the other side of the road. Echoland (proper) may well be zoned as commercial though, so it mightn't matter there.

 

In your side view, the snow load is even, but it gets well windy in Hakuba. It may drift onto your overhang. Before you get a panic attack though, all you have to do then is shovel it off.

 

In the other view, you've got six containers or six times 273,000 plus shipping and placement. I'm not a builder, but I don't think that's going to be fantastically cheaper than basic framing, external cladding, subfloor and uninsulated and unventilated roof. I don't suppose the other stuff will be any cheaper than it would be for a regular build and it could well be more expensive given the extra hassle. Containers sound much cheaper in places like the USA where they import loads but don't have anything to fill them with on the way back. One person online said $900.

 

Our own house is built on the original frame of a Japanese farmhouse, so we know all about building with preset limitations. It can be fun and it can be frustrating, like a big game of Tetris. For us, the frame of the house made it worthwhile. In your case too, if you really like containers, definitely go for it! As a cost saving though, I think it will be only a small percentage of the total cost of a luxury fitout with ensuites etc. In that case, starting with a blank sheet of paper also appeals.

 

As for insulation, as heat loss goes, I wouldn't aim for a really high insulation value for your walls because your major heat loss problem is going to be those massive windows. Especially if you use metal framed Japanese (Tostem or YKK) double-glazed windows which aren't all that good. The insulation problem I can see for a container home isn't so much winter as clear days like today when the thing could bake in the sun like a car. Make sure you get loads of ventilation too (opening windows etc) because it gets very humid indeed. No ventilation equals condensation and mould.

 

That might all sound a bit negative but I think this is a really interesting project, so good luck with it and keep us posted!

[panhead_pete 27]

Not negative at all Mr Wiggles, exactly the type of feedback Im after. Thanks. I just love the idea of the containers but depending on costs may just start with the bottom two floors.

 

Did you find any local windows that had a decent R rating?

[Mantas 3]

Why are you thinking of three levels high? Is it to take advantage of the view? I can see the hassles involved that Mr Wiggles mentioned. I've done a bit of building and renovating in Oz (twice from the ground up) over the years and man, it can be expensive. Particularly the fit out. You really need to be crunching that calculator.

 

I liked the original idea of fitting them out in China. It seems that everything over there is a fraction of the cost.

[panhead_pete 27]

I hear you Mantas. What drove the 3 storys was the ultimate aim of having a bed and breakfast type deal to sustain an income to cover my maintence and running costs of the house and a car, lift tickets, ashahi etc for the season and hence 3 guest bedrooms plus my own and possibly a small single spare. The blocks in Echoland are long and thin hence this design going that way too. Also in the back of my mind was possible views from the top of the 3rd.

 

The more I think about this the more I am leaning towards an initial 2 storys with two bedrooms downstairs and a big open plan upstairs with just a toilet and dryingroom/entrance being the only walls. An Ikea strip kichen down one wall etc. I think I can get the two bedroom modules built here in China but need to sus that out further.

 

If I was to go this way it would be designed to be able to throw another floor on top later on as per my original concept.

 

Guys I really appreciate that we are having this discussion, please lets keep it going.

[RobBright 35]

Why not go wider?

 

Did you watch that "Planet Green" episode yet?

 

And you do realise that once you start taking things out of he container, ie chunks of walls, you'll have to put beams in to support the remaining structure.

[panhead_pete 27]

The block width is the killer Rob. Initially 3 wide and two high was my initial plan. I require 3m set backs from the boundaries and the blocks are 13m wide. Leaves me 7m to play with and I'll be about 200mm short based on an external measurement of 2.44m of each box and thats without any sort of patios or eaves for entrances etc. I could rebate the entrance though which is option that just jumped to mind. Perhaps I can apply for a slight deviation to the rules like in Aus.

 

I need to get our IT guy to allow me to load some download software to see that show. Hope to do that in the next few days. Thanks for reminding me

 

Yep will need some internal support including directly under where the upper box sits at the front due to most of the strength in these being in the four corner posts. I paid to access some 3D plans last night but havent had a chance to see them yet.

 

I found this idea in a magazine too, not quite where I want to go with this but a nice idea for something that is prefab'd and could be easily hooked up

 

[NoFakie 45]

Misorano is full of bigger blocks at the same price or cheaper. You shouldn't need to pay anything like 50,000 a tsubo. Some parts will only be a few minutes walk away. Many roads are east-west up the foothills, so on the north side of the road, you'll get winter sun, albeit till 3pm or so when the sun drops behind the mountain. Further back from the Alps and you'll get the sun for longer. Getting the sun in Hakuba in winter is NICE.

 

Japanese windows aren't that bad, but you can't make some hyper efficient passivhaus-type structure with them. Aluminium frames with thermal breaks just aren't good enough. The windows on your house are also huge. Even a high R window is like an uninsulated wall. Obviously small windows = huge loss of amenity, so you've just got to accept it and not sweat the eco angle. My point is that its a waste of money and space putting in extra good insulation if your main heat loss is your windows. Reasonable insulation is enough. Spend your money on a fireplace, nice bath, built-ins, etc.

 

Judging from what's online, most containers in Japan seem to get used like prefabs for very low cost applications. There is a big difference in quality between putting a window or door in a shed and putting them in a well-built insulated home where draughts are unacceptable. I think your best bet is to ask the dude in Echoland. His place looks much more sophisticated than your average raamen-shop-in-a-container and I bet he's happy to talk about it. In your photos, it looks like it has a basement with windows, which adds another level of mystery. His blue colour is pretty good though. There are many worse looking places in town, sometimes due to the colour alone. Unfortunately, with a container, a dark colour is going to heat up faster in the sun. That one is not a myth.

 

http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/2141572.page

[panhead_pete 27]

Mr Wiggles thanks for some more great info, especially about the insulation. I had been aiming at really high R values but your argument is very logical and may have just saved me a truck load of hassle and cash. I'd certainly like to chat with the guy with the container house but in the 3 weeks I was there in Feb/Mar didnt see anyone there. Is there an easy way to contact the owners of real estate? Here in Aus I'd just ring the council and ask, most times they will give that info.

 

As for the location, being a very short walk to the strip at Echoland is high on my list for various reasons, including access to the shuttle buses, the bars and restuarnts as I much prefer a short stagger home after the odd night out lol. In my searches the cheapest land has been those blocks in Echoland so it sort of ticks all the boxes but Misarano is so close. Besides Hakuba R/E and Sakura R/E are there other places I should be searching?

[Mantas 3]

The block price works out at about $70 000 Aus. That's way cheap. You could just add a zero for a plot like that at Thredbo.

If you bury your first container about 2/3 in the ground, then it would give you some great insulation properties if you put a heat source down there. It would surely benifit the next level up as well. It would also give you some more living space without increasing the foot print on the block. You would have some corrosion issues though, putting steel into the ground.

[panhead_pete 27]

Thats the Appeal Mantas, hoping to be all done for under $200K, depending on how big etc it ends up. Found a simple solution to a stylish shower today. Nice and easy to fit. Waiting on a price Also easy to move if I change floor plans later.