SnowJapan.Com#3 0 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 A new feature, "Extremecarving - The Return of Style", written by Nils Degremont, has been put online. http://www.snowjapan.com/e/features/features-67.html "2004 soon.... it's been 32 years almost since Dimitri Milovich invented the real snowboard. It seems ages for the younger breed of riders, and a very short time to us, the second and third generation of boarders. What is the state of the sport today? Where do we see it going? A few people think it's time for a reaction, time for style, time for a business free snowboarding spirit and want to share that and teach it to the willing ones." http://www.snowjapan.com/e/features/features-67.html Please note that the views expressed in any Features on Snow Japan are not necessarily those of Snow Japan. Link to post Share on other sites
ninjaB 0 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 You did well. Nice one, Nils. They look sweet. Link to post Share on other sites
badmigraine 0 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Hurrah! Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 A great read Nils! What you say about the pictures of kids jumping in magazines is so true. It's supposed to make us ejaculate in excited awe, but in fact it's totally boring. It's also interesting to read something written from a crusading angle and a European perspective. "Dimitri Milovich invented the real snowboard" - I'm looking forward to checking this out in more detail - that's a person I've never heard of. If you can recommend some links to info about him, could you post them? I'm going to look at hard boots this weekend... Link to post Share on other sites
Siren 0 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Yes, a good article - I wish we have more of these. The Japanese snowboarding magazines are equally bad. I used to buy them a lot in my earlier years but really there isn't much content if you take away the ads and trick photos. Ocean/Bad/Miltie, I ordered my hardboots last week from Bomber and the last piece would be the bomber step-in bindings (plus the TC heels) which I have to wait until Bomber re-opens its store on 1 November. Visited Viento during lunch time two days ago and they do have a good selection on the 2nd floor. Most of the models are quite pricy but there are also a few names that you can get below 50k. One of the sales there, Matsumoto Yoshiyuki appears to be a JSBA pro-boarder and seems knowledgeable about the products. The hard boots are very expensive (70k for the Deelux/Raichle. Good luck. Siren Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Siren, so what did you do in the end - try on the boots somewhere and then order them online? How did prices compare with what you saw and what you bought? 50K is a significant chunk for one item of gear, and more than that is ... even more significant. So you're all set for the Return of Style! (nearly ) Link to post Share on other sites
Siren 0 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I tried out the boots in one of the shops in Jinbocho, found my size and bought it on line. Altough I like my boots to fit perfectly (and grateful for some of the advice offered to me at the shop), I don't think it is wise to pay double just for that. It is certainly ridiculous to fork out 72k (the new Deelux Le Man, which incidentally looks really cool with the adjusting damper at the back) for your first pair of hardboots. For now, this should do. If you are really cost-conscious, as Miltie pointed out, there are quite a lot of used boards (some with bindings) on Yahoo! Auction which should be good for a first season. Siren Link to post Share on other sites
rachael 0 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 That looks sooo coool! Is it difficult though, that is a question! Link to post Share on other sites
nils 0 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Hi guys, Well hope this article doesn't turn into a boot discussion (kidding)! Thnx for your reactions! As for Dimitrije, He started making snowboards very similar to those Winterstick swallowtails that are still made today in 1972, almost 5 years before Jack Burton, Tom Sims made boards. Dimitrije's boards had edges even before he thought he wouldn't need them in Powder. He has sold his company in the 80's and after a long court trial lost the Winterstick name too. He now runs a successfull composite material company in Utah. He is a very nice guy actually, we've exchanged many emails within the last 3 years and he is happy to see how big the sport is today.. He rides long swallowtails and is starting himself at carving now! Nils ps: EC and getting style isn't really difficult, it just asks you to forget all previously learned counter-rotation techniques that are natural so seem evident. We have written a full explaination on how to learn rotationnal technique and use it in freeride, freestyle even and also of course carving. Just watch the learning videos, and go from there! A nice goal to set for the upcoming season. Link to post Share on other sites
slimeypete 0 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I like it, looks awesome. Link to post Share on other sites
2pints-mate 0 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I noticed that before when the guy was posting. That looks pretty wild stuff, I'd love to see live, so to speak. Link to post Share on other sites
neversummer 0 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 nice read!! Things are even worse with videos today because of digital tech. guys doing 720's 10ft above the lips are being transformed into heights of 15ft or more. it makes kids want to be like that and like Nils implied, its not what snowboarding is all about. i've tried carving several times but its just not woth it in Oz. the runs are not long enough or wide enough to enjoy it properly and in japan there are to many people unless its first thing in the morning. for those out there who havent been to the backcountry, away from all the pipes,parks,hits etc get a crew together, do an awareness course and instead of going to a resort one day take a small hike. the feeling you experience looking down before dropping in is amazing, seeing the path you've created on the way up, and the feeling of linking turn after turn with no-one but yourself and your mates to see it will make you want to go back to the top, a little further and do it all again. just make sure you do things safely... Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Very good read. Yes mags these days want to show only air, I cant think why there is no balance. I find a great pow line as stimulating as a huge air. Link to post Share on other sites
dogman 0 Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 Sweet Link to post Share on other sites
babycroc 0 Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 Quote: just make sure you do things safely... How do we know it's safe if we have no experience? Link to post Share on other sites
dale#1 1 Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 I really like the look of that Link to post Share on other sites
barok 0 Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 Hey Nils, I support what you are doing, as I think any diversity in the sport of snowboarding is good. So if you create something new, that is successful, it really enriches the sport, but I think you are wrong in your assessment of freestyle snowboarding and snowboarders. I am a freestyler, and I disagree with alot of what you say about us. You Say: Ten more years have past and we’re now ruled by freestyle and 16 year old pierced, tattooed and marketed pro-riders. I say: What's wrong with or what's not core about the punk style and being 16 ? It was exactly that group that brought up snowboarding here in the States. Young kids with no money, but a desire to do something different and fun. You say: It has reached maturity and at the same time childish behaviours in an image/success-oriented society. It is now eating itself, raping the last ounces of freedom that once was within it. I say: I don't understand what you are on about here at all. Sure, I hate the fact that ski companies have gobbled up much of snowboarding and have bought and/or started many many of the good brands (Forum, K2, Ride, Solomon, Head, etc.). Although let's not forget 1) that more than half of snowboards are not made by ski companies, 2)that the info of which companies are owned by the ski brands is well documented, and 3) that core companies exist on every level - from very big (Burton) to very small (Option, NeverSummer, Unity, Gentem, and countless others) Also it's unfortunate that many companies sell out - in addition to brands that have sold to ski companies, there are brands that have sold out to other companies as well - to the best of my knowledge, Mervin Manufacturing (Lib Tech, Gnu, Supernatural) is owned by Dannon Yogurt. And I guess Winterstick could be included in this category? Of course we can't really blame them too much. After all, at least part of the reason that people go into business is to make money, and I certainly wouldn't call this "rape." You say: Last week I bought a French snowboard magazine and felt the danger. Out of 230 pages there was just ONE page actually showing a snowboarder on the snow, simply turning on snow. The rest was 229 pages of ads, and teenage riders spinning into air - most of the pics didn't show the mountain below them. I tried to imagine how many years would it take before snowboarding would be called 'circusboarding' or 'trickboarding', and when snow wouldn’t be needed at all. It made me wonder why we let that happen, why we let the magazines be driven by the ads and the ski companies wanting to appear as cool, and why we should let marketers make a sport for teenagers when most riders are grown ups. I say: If you think the way that most freestylers do, (as opposed to freeriders, who probably draw connections to surfing) Snowboarding is an extention of skateboarding. In skateboarding, what most people aspire to are the technical spin and rail tricks. So extend that to snowboarding, and you get, surprise surprise, technical spin and rail tricks. I don't think there is anything wrong with it, because these tricks are fun, lots of fun. Admittedly I have never extreme carved, or even paid that much attention to carving at all, except through powder, but I love hitting rails, and flying through the air and spinning. It has nothing to do with aspirations to be in any magazine either. I don't really like the mags, I like the videos better. I am surpirsed that most of what they are showing in the French mags, by your description, is park jumps, when all we ever hear about France is the endless freeriding possibilites (Val, Chamonix, etc.) Anyway, what I see in the mags, as far as the "Wow" pics, are 2 things - 1) Urban Rails and 2) Backcountry kickers. Again, I think urban rails mirror skateboarding, so I don't see the problem. Backcoutry kickers I think are great - I don't really want to take three paragraphs to explain why, but suffice it to say, that embodies the soul of snowboarding as much as anything, and if you've ever built and hit a bc kicker, you know how much fun it is. Overall, I liked your article, and though I probably will never carve, I hope that the businesses involved do well. It can only add/diversify things. Maybe it's just the underdog thing, but I never understood why freeriders bad-mouth freestylers (I hear it all the time), who generally pay them nothing but respect back. I think it might be somewhat overcompensatory, and that you all should really just try to promote what you are doing, and have fun with it than create futrher divisions in the sport. Link to post Share on other sites
badmigraine 0 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Great post! Thanks for helping me kill half a cup of coffee and having a good old jaw about winter fun. Before I write the rest of this post, I want to state for the record that I like colored hair, tats, body piercings, halfpipes, skate culture, abandoned 15 winters of skiing experience to take up snowboarding in '93/'94, had a subscription to Blunt until Larry Flynt acquired then killed it, and can rant bitterly for hours on the stupidity, evils and as-yet-unknown environmental horrors foisted upon all of us all by large corporations and global concerns...and now on with it. In your post, you say you can't understand why freeriders bad-mouth freestylers. I can't understand that either. To balance it out, some freestylers bad-mouth freeriders...just as bad. I really don't perceive either style of riding as a discrete camp or as defining the rider...they're just snowboarders to me. Even if there are discrete camps, it doesn't seem useful to argue that one would be better than the other. An objective value judgment is unnecessary when expressing a preference between styles. But by extension--and this is where you lost me--I can't understand why some boarders belittle ski company participation in the snowboard market. Qualitatively, this seems to me as unjustifiable as freeriders bad-mouthing freestylers. There are two questionable assumptions here. First, whether the snowboard maker in question began as a ski company (e.g. Salomon) or a board company (e.g. Burton) makes zero difference. Would it make people feel better if these companies had been fruit importers or cabinet-makers before entering the snowboard market? What is the real complaint here? No matter what objection one may have about how these companies conducted their legitimate business activities (if they hadn't done it, another would've), why does it bother some people that they began as ski companies? In fact the opposite should be true: we who buy boards should thank our lucky stars that ski companies, who'd been working on bases, edges and flex for decades, entered the snowboard market and brought to bear their own considerable resources, expertise and know-how. They helped raise the snowboard bar in terms of materials, technology, world-wide distribution, widespread parts-service-warranty availability, etc. In fact they may have even legitimized snowboarding in the eyes of those on skis who wanted to try boarding but didn't thrill to colored hair, tats and body pierces, jumps, rails, pipes, etc. That we now have all types of people doing all types of riding on both skis and snowboards says a lot about where the snowboard market needed to head in order to mature. Skiing vs. boarding? Sheesh. Hasn't that sorry old horse been dead for years now? Maybe in 1993 one could understand some hostility between skiers and boarders. I was a skier then and I remember it pretty well: The newness and anti-snobby style of snowboarders upset a lot of pratlike skiers...accusations of punklike onslope troublemaking gave snowboarders a bad name...the skill and equipment level was in its infancy so the percentage of beginning riders flopping and careening on slopes was higher than it is today, and was less well tolerated..."snowboaders scrape all the good snow off the runs" was a seemingly irrefutable accusation...but in 2003? All of these bones of contention were gnawed clean long ago, or so I thought. Aside from the gentle irony in gibing over beers or on Internet forums, in 2003 what kind of message does it send to continue investing negative emotion into an imaginary opposition between boarders and skiers? Is there any valid reason to do this anymore? Or is it really just like arguing freestyle vs. freeride? Many skiers and boarders either do/have done both sports, or at least have no justifiable objection to make about either sport...except for a "my-kind vs. your-kind" negative-vibe exclusivity. This is really no different from football team rivalries and can lead to things like shouting at television screens and overeating bar snacks...these behaviors are not innately bad, but they should be acknowledged for what they are: human tribal illogic. Where I live, the young generation of sliders knows the difference between skis and boards, but doesn't perceive the skier vs. boarder distinction at all. These kids have about as much invested in "skier vs. boarder" as they do in "rock vs. disco", "import car vs. domestic" or better yet "peas vs. carrots"...that is, until their hungry minds become indoctrinated by our wildcatting media culture, which obsessively repackages history, manipulates image and secretes brand identity to sell more product. Secondly, and putting aside the tired old ski vs. board issue, I have misgivings about the increasingly unquestioned "core vs. corporate" diatribe. The mere fact that people even notice this kind stuff long ago (as in many decades ago) gave rise to a marketing strategy in and of itself. From an objective point of view: with few exceptions that I can imagine, for legal, accounting and business reasons, all of the companies--whether core or giant--are nothing more than that: companies, for-profit corporations. Each one has its own different philosophy, owners and staff, and strives in its own way to achieve its goals. Hats off to Adam Smith for noticing what good things that does for us all. And thank god there is a place in the market for soul-surfers and their cottage industries, as well as for each year's crop of 50,000 bandanna-wearing, 13-year-old white suburban rapper wannabe-J.P. Walker carbon copies. One may prefer the product, image, style, or performance of this or that company, for one's own personal reasons. Great. As long as we have cash, let's support our preferred producers by buying their products, then let's Go Forth and Play. If one has social, environmental or other issues about giant companies, that's great too. Maybe you can help raise awareness, change the law or boycott the offending mega-global-corp products. But the consolidation/merger of smaller, successful-market innovators into bigger companies happens in all industries at all times and is nothing to worry about in and of itself. Probably their business model, quality and technology have all ratcheted up thanks to having to compete with giant faceless global corporate giants...that's good for all of us, including core companies. Last time I checked, there were plenty of "core" companies remaining in both the ski and board world, and new ones coming into being every year. Look at the Swoard, for example. I just don't understand the wink-and-a-nod exchanged when people lay claim to supporting core companies instead of giant corporations. As for me, I select the product I like and I try not to pay much attention to brand image, though I'd be lying if I said I was immune to brand identity and image. If a big company makes the product I like, then I'll probably buy that one...like a Salomon board. Same is true if it's a core company...like a Donek carving board. Other customers place emphasis on other things, and that's fine too. But are big companies bad? Other than this or that vanished company or product, which is normal in any market, isn't the level continuously rising all the time? I don't understand or believe that core is better than corporate, or that corporate is better than core. I don't want to get too complicated or philosophical here, and it seems I may have gone too far already. What I'm trying to say is, I agree with what you said about freestyle vs. freeride (there should be no "vs.") ...and I extend the reasoning to ski vs. board (there should be no "vs.") ...and I extend the reasoning to core vs. corporate (there should be no "vs."). Whaddya think barok? Does this make any sense to you, or am I too far out on a limb here?! Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 migs, in answer to your core vs. corporate doubts, let me suggest you try emailing Burton or Salomon for advice about a board, and then try emailing Donek, and compare the goodness of the advice and service. From what I hear, you won't even get an acknowledgement from Burton (unless things have changed very recently). You also won't find representatives of those companies on forums like this. While I don't have the automatic 'core vs. corporate' attitude at all (indeed, I distrust the word 'core' as much as I distrust anything), I'm thankful that 'grass-roots' companies are helping to keep things turning over. As for snowboarding tricks mirroring skateboarding tricks, I don't think that makes them any more interesting or worthy of the tiresome focus that is devoted to them in magazines. Actually, I don't even buy magazines, but you get the same one-flavour pictures in brochures for shops and whatever. Much as I like jumping and aspire to get better at it, I want to see the mountain in the picture too. I guess that it's no coincidence that my interest in skateboards is confined to longboards... It may be that the sort of frustration Nils projects in his article is necessary to bring developments. Personally, I don't think the ski vs. snowboard thing is a dead horse yet, and I feel that resorts, especially in Japan, still have a lot to learn from snowboarding. I can happily accept some exaggeration of the issues and conflicts if it helps to bring forward interesting developments, of which extreme carving seems to be one. Link to post Share on other sites
badmigraine 0 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Ocean, I wasn't trying to focus on the diffs between small vs. big companies, but rather to describe why I can't understand those who are smugly "core". Still, you give a great example of one factor that people focus on when making a purchase decision. I could probably call Donek out of the blue and speak to the guy who would be making my board. That absolutely fascinates me. I WILL HAVE ONE OF THOSE BOARDS!! After bleeding you of all the information about YOURS of course! By contrast, no way can I e-mail Salomon to ask about how the Fastback ride differs from the Forecast ride...though god knows I've wanted to. Ever notice that it's getting harder every year to understand what each board in the Major Makers' lineup is actually for? They don't seem to tell you much real info in their catalogues, and nobody in the shops knows either... It's stupid to e-mail Salomon to ask about it because there is nobody home. But the other side of this particular coin is that I can drive 5 minutes to my local Salomon dealer and put my fingerprints all over their entire product lineup of boots, bindings and boards, as well as get service and warranty stuff done. I can't do that with Donek. In fact, although you might get a quick e-mail response from custom and small makers, many of them have limited manufacturing capacity, they get really busy making all their orders and it might take awhile before you actually receive the board. I believe this particular factor only affects customers who are poor planners or victims of seasonally irregular cash flow . My personal take on this is, I'm going to try to attend one of these carving summits that happen during the winter, and buy people drinks and pick their brains and fondle their equipment until I know exactly what I want. Then, after heaping my money into a great pile, I will ORDER IT! Link to post Share on other sites
Siren 0 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Interesting discussion here. I have great admiration for people like Nils who is trying to do something he really believes in and wants to share with others. However, I really don't care too much about the great debates about skier vs snowboarder or freestyle vs freeride. There is a better way but never one best way to do things as we know. For the resorts that aren't interested in the business of snowboarders for reason only obvious to themselves, that's fine with me too as long as that is not the only place on earth I can go in the winter. Often, they are not even the better resorts. As to core vs big corporate, customer focus is one of the most important subject that dominates business literature. History is littered with stories of companies which became successful by having strong customer focus, forgot it (or placed priority elsewhere) and declined. It is a matter of resources and the priority in allocating them. For consumers like us, it is a good thing we have the internet that gives us more choice. Link to post Share on other sites
barok 0 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 great! much of the way that I think about these things isn't really logical, more emotional and based on the small cross section of what I have seen in the industry. core vs. corporate This is a toughy. I always like to cheer for the underdog, but only if he/she has a chance at winning. So if a small company builds what is reputed to be a great board, I will check it out. And that's always how I have bought boards -after much reading, research, and listening to the opinions of others, I look for the best deal on what I think I want. I have never actually ridden a board before I have bought it, but I have never been disappointed either. If I buy a board from a small company, I know that that company appreciates it, and that the customer service will be great, so the board feels more stable under my feet, and I am more proud to show it off. When my $549US valued Burton Dragon snapped in two, I didn't even bother trying to get warranty, because I know what they would have said. When you look at the real small companies - NS, Gentem, Donek, whatever, they make fewer boards, so they can put more time and effort into quality control, so there is a better chance that you'll get a better product, and as mentioned, if it breaks, you'll probably get a new one. So yeah, support a small company, cheer for the underdog, and ride a better product - core, er something. ski vs. snowboard I thought alot about this one today. I definately DON'T have a problem with skiers, or at least not the new breed. Any skier vs. snowboarder argument I have is yeah, a lighthearted football rivalry type thing. Hell, most of the non-day-trips I took last season were to meet skiers. Ski companies - I don't really know enough about them. I say to them, thanks for all the tech and distro stuff mentioned by migs, but I know that I wouldn't buy a board from a ski company. Why not ? Just don't want my dollar to go there. I figure there will be a better comparable product available built by a company owned by, and employing snowboarders. I appreciate their efforts more than those of the factory workers who have never seen snow. Maybe some of this thinking is imaginary, maybe ski companies like Salomon and K2 don't employ legions of factory workers in hot countries, but it's definately the image in my brain. Like I said, I haven't really done enough research on them. But there is one thing in the whole ski vs. snowboard argument what really burns me up, and that is the way that the Federation Inernational du Ski or whatever has been chipping away at the soul of snowboarding ever since it saw profit potential. These are the clowns that dropped enough cash in front of the International Olympic Committee, and beat out the now defunct International Snowboarding Federation to the rights to oversee snowboarding as a competitive sport. Even after this point, there were two competitive circuits in snowboarding, and riders competed to win points to advance in the rankings. Problem was, that it was impossible to hit both competitive circuits, and the FIS worked very hard and spent alot of (prize) money to promote it's contests over the ISF's. And of course with the Olympics being promoted as the chief event for international competition in almost every sport, the FIS events gained more and more populartity, and the ISF eventually tanked. So if you want to be a competitive rider, you have to listen to those same old foagie skiers who didn't want you on the hill in the first place on matters of snowboarding competition. In the field of competition, skiing won, and it bugs me. Luckily, competitive snowboarders haven't given up, and there are still plenty of good competitions out there, created by riders, and judged by riders. Link to post Share on other sites
badmigraine 0 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Yeah, right on! Amazing how the uptight, idiotic history of the FIS survives year after year to project itself on an undeserving future...and that bass-ackwards approach of fat old farts and bureaucratic weirdos who organize/run amateur athletic events continues to befuddle common sense. After I posted I remembered the unfortunate demise of the ISF. Funny, but as a kid I always wanted to be in the Olympics and never really questioned that even during all the IOC corruption scandals over the decades since then. But when Terje blew off the Olympics it occurred to me that snowboarding in the Olympics seemed really wacked, like seeing hot dogs at an Italian restaurant or whiskers on a toad. In the abstract the exposure seemed nice and who can complain about getting to see all that talent in the pipe or on the GS course. But in reality, that Olympic thing doesn't really suit snowboarding and vice-versa. I think you're doing a great thing by seeking out and patronizing smaller, quality, lesser-known and in many ways "core" board makers. You're an experienced boarder and your purchasing decision sends a message to the market that what you like is good and its production rewarded. It's like supporting your local surfboard shaper instead of ordering a BIC board online. I'll get a real glow when I finally buy a Donek or Swoard, that's for damn sure. As for the ski company points you make, I totally get where you are coming from, but wouldn't the sweatshop-factory point apply to giant snowboard companies too? I still don't see what difference it makes if some or all of the company staff or stock ownership is with people who also happen to ski. I just don't get it! Are you sure you really have some reservation about skiing? For example, what if there were a small, innovative company run by 3 people: 2 boarders and 1 skier. And they made fantastic snowboards and monoskis too. Would you avoid them on purpose like you might a Salomon or K2? Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Grinch 0 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Erm...might I ask you all to squelch your puerile blathering? A Grinch doesn't have all the time in the world to follow such nonsense. Both ski-ing and snowboarding are execrable sports. I highly recommend sledding though. Anyone like to purchase a pair of slightly-used, tie-on antlers? Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 I thought that was unreal when I first saw it Link to post Share on other sites
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