thursday 1 Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Put hoods on the ace quad like King 3, that'd make the slow lifts more bearable, and perhaps slower. Hana under utilized? Just wait 'til that shopping mall/resort complex etc goes up. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Fattwins most of the Japanese stay in pensions and hotels and frankly they can have them. With the average stay for Japanese being barely 2 nights and the average stay of foreigners being in excess of a week (and they spend a whole lot more whilst in resort), I know what market I'd be aiming for. Especially as you point out the domestic market is declining everywhere. Despite all the foreigners now descending on Niseko each season Tokyu doesn't even have one foreign staffer at management level. This is utter madness even for a Japanese company! Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I don't mind a hotel ... but I get a bit uncomfortable in a lodge environment - I am always mindful of trying to keep the kids quiet so as not to disturb others etc etc, and then when we are trying to sleep people are partying... doesn't work too well for me. I know some people LOVE them, but they are not usually my cup of tea. Although we are staying in one in Falls Creek this July - fingers crossed I can RELAX a bit. I love the self contained offered in Niseko. Woooohoo ... did someone say shopping mall....ummm...ohh yeah that's right - EXCESS BAGGAGE! Hoods! LOL That might keep us a bit warmer - but just make it a high speed lift - or get a high speed 8 person lift like they have at Perisher - now if the Tokyu boys could load them to capacity you would get a lot more people up the mountain fast! Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 The problem is and you really aren't looking at this the right way. The domestic market is a very high % of the day ticket sales. Without those sales you have no resort and no upgrades to the lift infrastructure. You need a strong domestic market for the ski resort. A strong inbound market is good for the hotels. This is so true in Japan where the resorts really don't own any of the properties or land in the area. I for one and all for less resorts that let the stronger resorts prosper and grow. Im not a believer in the apartments will save your resort strategy either. You end up having no body living full time near the resort and that seriously effects the taxes. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 There seemed to be plenty of people on the mountain for the weekend when I was there in Jan FT... On a Sunday morning when we we queueing for the Gondie one of the kids started complaining and I just told him to chill - it was the weekend and you had to expect the crowds - it will be a lot quieter tomorrow, and sure enough it was. That to me suggests the surge in people on the mountain would have been local people....it is a rare Aussie/NZ who will fly to Hok's for a weekender! Add: Also the car parks - they were a lot more full and had overflow parking being utilized behind the Gondola Chalets at the weekend. Much less cars on the weekdays... Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I prefer hotels to apartments to lodges to pensions. And I prefer to breakfast only so I can dine out in the evenings, only it's gotten to be quite hard to find a place to eat at a decent time. MB, I've flown into Sapporo for weekends. Not to ski though but to chill and eat crab and other delish Hokkaido seafood. Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Pow 52 Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Originally Posted By: Fattwins The problem is and you really aren't looking at this the right way. The domestic market is a very high % of the day ticket sales. Without those sales you have no resort and no upgrades to the lift infrastructure. You need a strong domestic market for the ski resort. A strong inbound market is good for the hotels. This is so true in Japan where the resorts really don't own any of the properties or land in the area. I for one and all for less resorts that let the stronger resorts prosper and grow. Im not a believer in the apartments will save your resort strategy either. You end up having no body living full time near the resort and that seriously effects the taxes. Niseko Iwanai & Niskeo Weiss both closed because the domestic market (whether from Hokkaido or other prefectures) couldn't / didn't want to support them. Niseko Moiwa closed for a while and has now reopened as a consequence of Niseko United doing well. My gut feeling is that Niseko United would be on it's arse financially if it weren't for international visitors. My 2 yen For this area to go forward, individuals (I could care less if they're Japanese or non-Japanese) in tune with what the primary market (which I believe is international visitors) requires need to be in decision making positions. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 But Mike don't you think that even if it is the International market that is keeping it bouyant, that the benefits in infrastructure, diversity of dining establishments etc etc that are being implemented (and hopefully are implemented even more aggressively in the future) will have a flow on effect for the locals as far as enticing them back? If all of a sudden there was an influx of international tourists flocking to Kings Park in droves, and more and more eateries etc were popping up I am sure I would be drawn back for a look or two, and maybe add to my regular trip calander instead of driving past and not visiting for years at a time. After all, if hundered/thousands of tourists will pay a fortune to come and play in my backyard, why the heck aren't I? And by upgrading facilities and adding multicultural eateries that perhaps are harder to find elsewhere in Japan people may even come to the village just for a meal! I often think of the great old swimming faciltity at Beatty Park that was built for a Commonwealth Games - surrounded by inexpensive hostel/motel type units that are always full of international students and backpackers - built as the games village. Even after the event, after the people have left - the faciltiies remain for the enjoyment of locals. reinvented slightly - sure - but it is still a great boost. I bet Nagano left some benefits too! Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Pow 52 Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 Hopefully. Talking more about the mountain rather than the town. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 Yeah - of course - by the eateries ...I am thinking that those kind of improvements are already done (and being done ongoing). The mountain infrastructure is the next to be tackled, yeah. There is plenty of mountain left for the crowds - just gotta lift them up there! MID JAN! - plenty of room on the runs! We were queueing for the lifts to get here though. Link to post Share on other sites
JA2340 16 Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 Originally Posted By: Fattwins The problem is and you really aren't looking at this the right way. The domestic market is a very high % of the day ticket sales. Without those sales you have no resort and no upgrades to the lift infrastructure. You need a strong domestic market for the ski resort. A strong inbound market is good for the hotels. (my emphasis) FT, do not the inbounds also buy tickets? And for more than a day or two. Last trip to Niseko, we (group of 4 adults) bought tickets for 9 of 11 days. That is 36 days worth of tickets. To get the equivalent in day trippers, you'd need 18 for a two day weekend. True, we also stayed at a pension, but we spent plenty of cash in the resort on food and other stuff (notably booze!) at the Seikomart and other places. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 I think FT's point is that a resort needs more lift tickets sales than there are beds...there needs to be a year round community. Now I am not a summer visitor - so forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe there is a thriving summer sport industry there now. All good! But you are right JA. Those of us who fly all that way usually buy lift tix for the majority of not ALL of our days in the area, and we don't skimp on the meals and drinks - after all we are on vacation. We spend big. But encouraging locals should not be overlooked either. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 Your lift tickets from the tour package that you buy from the operators are discounted so that the operators can have a margin which you are paying for. Some operators, being smart enough would buy a very long pass and link it to several bookings. Day, weekend tickets are more profitable. Link to post Share on other sites
Fattwins 0 Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 That is a good part of my point. The international market is is profitable for some, but is it profitable for the resorts? Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 Originally Posted By: thursday. Some operators, being smart enough would buy a very long pass and link it to several bookings. Thursday this isn't done by any operators I know of anymore. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 Originally Posted By: Fattwins The problem is and you really aren't looking at this the right way. The domestic market is a very high % of the day ticket sales. Without those sales you have no resort and no upgrades to the lift infrastructure. You need a strong domestic market for the ski resort. A strong inbound market is good for the hotels. This is so true in Japan where the resorts really don't own any of the properties or land in the area. I for one and all for less resorts that let the stronger resorts prosper and grow. Im not a believer in the apartments will save your resort strategy either. You end up having no body living full time near the resort and that seriously effects the taxes. Fattwins I think the resort does very well out of the foreign market. If they were relying on the domestic market alone then, as you know from resorts down your way, there would be hardly anyone coming in mid week. With the foreign market they have large numbers here throughout the week with a spike on the weekends. And very few are coming here to just sit in their luxury apartments or the local bars and eateries. They are coming here to ski and they buy lift passes. As MP has pointed out all the nearby resorts that were relying on the domestic market alone have closed their lifts. Rusutsu doesn't have this problem but from what I understand they make most of their money in the summer months. I really don't understand the taxes comment at all. Whether people are living in the resort or down in Kutchan or somewhere in between they are all paying taxes. And all the owners of the apartments pay taxes, so a massive boom in apartment construction can only mean a bucket load more tax revenue. Also the apartments have made a huge difference to the type of customers coming to Niseko. We now have a lot more families (who rarely wanted to stay in pensions or tiny little hotel rooms) and as prices have increased those coming are generally a whole lot richer. A resort management who had any clue would be doing all they could to develop services for this rich clientele and be making big bucks off them. Tokyu basically have done nothing along these lines so the foreign operators have been filling the gaps. We are getting many customers now for whom money is no concern and they expect the best of everything. As far as international ski resorts go Niseko is still a long way behind in being able to offer the best of everything. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 Originally Posted By: Go Native Originally Posted By: thursday. Some operators, being smart enough would buy a very long pass and link it to several bookings. Thursday this isn't done by any operators I know of anymore. GN, I booked the Hirafuei cos I wanted to try the onsen in the room thing. It was great. I emailed the hotel and they told me to get stuffed or go through an agent. I wanted the onsen in the room so I went through an agent. I wanted just the hotel room, but to my annoyance, they would only do the whole thing. Transfer, hotel, lift pass, transfer back. I went in March, the lift pass was valid from Feb 12 as printed on the front. Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 Originally Posted By: thursday. Originally Posted By: Go Native Originally Posted By: thursday. Some operators, being smart enough would buy a very long pass and link it to several bookings. Thursday this isn't done by any operators I know of anymore. GN, I booked the Hirafuei cos I wanted to try the onsen in the room thing. It was great. I emailed the hotel and they told me to get stuffed or go through an agent. I wanted the onsen in the room so I went through an agent. I wanted just the hotel room, but to my annoyance, they would only do the whole thing. Transfer, hotel, lift pass, transfer back. I went in March, the lift pass was valid from Feb 12 as printed on the front. WOW! That IS different. We booked our accomodation direct. We told our travel agent which flights we wanted (had to change by a couple of days as they were booked) and what hotel we wanted in Tokyo (wild stab after looking at brochures. We bought our own lift passes when we got there - and the resort did very well out of us indeed. We got 16/18 day all mountain passes for five people - and we stayed at Grand Hirafu all but one of those days. We also bought the invalid man some single use Gondie tix - most of which he didn't use. We also went as a group of 3 families - and encouraged by recommendation the booking of 3 further families at dates different to ours. Next year there will be even more who will go after hearing our stories and seeing our pics/vids. All of those people will buy lift tix, many will hire gear, many will stick the kids into all day ski school (and relish the freedom), and they will all eat/drink on the mountain for lunch and in the village for dinner. Lotta bucks spent. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted April 13, 2008 Share Posted April 13, 2008 MamaBear, I've been doing my own bookings since I knew when. The nutty thing was that the hotel would not deal with me directly. Seems they like giving their bottom line to operators. But having had that experience, I will not be staying at that hotel again. The journey to the slope for a claimed ski in-out was ridiculous. I have stayed in most of the hotels in Hirafu, this one won't see me return. Link to post Share on other sites
IIIII 2 Posted April 13, 2008 Share Posted April 13, 2008 Is the food on the mountain changed over the years or it is the same curryrice? Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted April 13, 2008 Share Posted April 13, 2008 Originally Posted By: IIIII Is the food on the mountain changed over the years or it is the same curryrice? There is certainly a fair bit of curryrice! But there are other choices as well. Certainly could do with more diversity even still. But I always found somewhere to eat with something that appealed. Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 I love the curry rice and beer break when I go boarding!! Link to post Share on other sites
aomorigum 0 Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 The curry can be bad but find a good one and it sure works. Link to post Share on other sites
skidaisuki 0 Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 GN - you would have to "go native" if you wanted to be Mayor of Kutchan... Link to post Share on other sites
BagOfCrisps 24 Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I don't think we had that here. What BBC channel was this on then? Link to post Share on other sites
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