soubriquet 0 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Some thoughts, fwiw. Before Japan I invariably owned manuals. Soubriquette's car is an auto. I'm happy with either, but now prefer the auto 95% of the time, considering the type of driving I do. Assuming the auto is not a stepless CVT, I don't buy the "less control" argument. The Legacy has a gear lever on the console which over-rides the auto, and works almost precisely as a clutchless manual. I use the lever when overtaking, and on steep climbs and descents. It took me a while to learn how to drive an auto, but if it is control you want, try something other than D. Left foot braking. I don't do that. I learned to ride on British motorcycles with left-foot brake, right-foot gearchange. I haven't ridden a British bike for 35 years, but even now I still need to think about which foot to use. I don't dare left-foot brake in a car, because when I want the brake pedal, I don't want to have to think about which foot to use. I disagree about "asleep at the wheel" too. When I drive I'm checking the road ahead, the road behind, selecting my lines and speed, anticipating problems etc. The presence or absence of a clutch doesn't alter that. I learned to drive on a Ferguson tractor. 3-speed crash gearbox (so you had to double de-clutch) plus a hand throttle. Look mum, no hands! Fiddle brakes on the right, so there was plenty to keep you awake. Some of the trucks I've driven have had interesting gearboxes. The 7-speed David Brown boxes had a normal gate except for 6 to 7, which was forward, across and back. 12 speed roadrangers are tricky too. The range change involves two levers. Into neutral, separate gearlever for range change, then from 6th into 1st (or vice versa). Both crash boxes too. Link to post Share on other sites
spook 0 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 i don't get the left foot brake in autos either. seems kinda dangerous to me. i've always only used my right foot to brake. the only time i've seen people using their left foot to brake are rally drivers who put their foot sideways on both the clutch and brake and do all sorts of trickery as they whizz around those truck gear changes sound nuts soubs. i don't even like european cars with reverse near 1st gear. i keep freaking that i'm somehow going to whack the car into reverse when i'm changing down from 2nd to 1st Link to post Share on other sites
journey_man 0 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 I raced Karts for a bunch of years and Karts have the brake on the left foot, so I got quite good at it. Even so while I was racing I didn't left foot brake in my car until I noticed a friend doing it. I tried it and it felt good, it gives the other leg something to do and works really well for hill starts, backing and fast driving in winding roads (yes I'd prefer a manual here). It did take some getting used to as in racing you never brake gently, you actually have to push quite hard on the pedal. In road driving braking is far more subtle! At the time I owned a manual and an auto, but surprisingly enough I found no problem using my right foot in the manual and my left in the auto. Link to post Share on other sites
soubriquet 0 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 This is Ari Vatanen at Pikes Peak. He's using the throttle and brake together to balance the grip front to rear, and unsettle the back to control understeer on turn-in. It's very easy to do if your name is Arikkola, Eklund or Makkinen. My mother's side is Lunn: Scandiwegian, but not Finnish enough. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604540639943123451 What you are describing spook is "heel and toe". It is relatively easy to do if the pedals are set at the correct relative heights. It works in Italian cars, but don't try it in a Vauxhall. I used this all the time downchanging in my Alfas. You brake with the ball of your right foot, and use the heel/outer side of your right foot to blip the throttle while double de-clutching down with the left. If you get it right, it gives you a very fast change down without straining the synchro, and without putting an extra braking load (and thus unsettling) the back of the car. Dogleg first gear comes with some Getrag and ZF gearboxes. My Lancia Fulvia had one of these. I like them because 1st is generally redundant after takeoff, and it's tucked out of the way to the side. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 that heel to to thing is such a laugh. Good demo when smokin Joe Winkelhock showed it via the cockpit cam in the Macau touring car race a few years back. Then all the boy racers tried to immitate on the roads with many fatal wraps around the lamposts. Great. I like to see Darwin Award winners off the roads permanently. Link to post Share on other sites
journey_man 0 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 You have to heel n toe in a lot of single seater race cars too because they have non syncro gearboxes for strength and weight reasons. I did a day at Donington Park in Formula Vauxhall cars and a large chunk of the day was devoted to training in how to change gears, especially down shifts where you have to heel n toe or it just grinds. Interestingly you didn't have to double clutch even tho it was a crash box. Link to post Share on other sites
soubriquet 0 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Here's Walter Rohrl demonstrating left-foot braking, and heel-and-toe. Wonder if he needs to look at his feet I'm going to change my name to Carlos Fandango, then it will be easy, innit. Heel-and-toe is archaic, a leftover from when cars had the brake pedal on the right, and a centre throttle. Crash boxes are nice. Synchros, are called "baulk rings" because they baulk the change. Crash boxes give a much nicer change, as long as you get the revs properly matched. The Leyland tippers I used to drive had super heavy clutches, so I only used it to start. Under way, all changes were clutchless rev-matched. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Audi Quattro All those nutters running across the road, spoils it for the driver as he tries to not kill them. Link to post Share on other sites
journey_man 0 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Wow, he was braking with both feet! The guy was a genius. Group B cars, that was real rallying! Link to post Share on other sites
Ezorisu 0 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Originally Posted By: thursday. By the way, they're automatic with paddle sequential shifts. It's a manual gearbox with computer-controlled shifting forks and clutches via paddle shifters. There is an "automatic" mode also - not unlike the VW DSG transmission or the Toyota/Aisin sequential 6MT that appeared in the MR-S. Link to post Share on other sites
soubriquet 0 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 I've yet to read a positive review of any electro-mechanical manual gearbox. Invariably reviewers tread around the point (Ferrari/Alfa/Maserati/Porshe) etc. are paying for the trip. The change may only take a microsecond, but it also snaps your passenger's head back and forth. Brutal, and acceptable when you are prepared to pay for the transmission to be re-built every 30,000 miles. I love it when my passengers tell me after a 500km trip, how smooth my car is. It's the camera trick. You take good photos, you must have a good camera. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Originally Posted By: Ezorisu Originally Posted By: thursday. By the way, they're automatic with paddle sequential shifts. It's a manual gearbox with computer-controlled shifting forks and clutches via paddle shifters. There is an "automatic" mode also - not unlike the VW DSG transmission or the Toyota/Aisin sequential 6MT that appeared in the MR-S. nerd Link to post Share on other sites
nzlegend 1 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Originally Posted By: soubriquet 12 speed roadrangers are tricky too. The range change involves two levers. Into neutral, separate gearlever for range change, then from 6th into 1st (or vice versa). Both crash boxes too. I sometimes used to drive trucks in my old company in NZ with roadranger gearboxes, its an acquired taste that I never acquired! http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/Footbox%20Small.wmv try this to see the heel/toe manoeuvre in action Link to post Share on other sites
spook 0 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Originally Posted By: soubriquet I love it when my passengers tell me after a 500km trip, how smooth my car is. It's the camera trick. You take good photos, you must have a good camera. so true Link to post Share on other sites
Ezorisu 0 Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Originally Posted By: soubriquet I've yet to read a positive review of any electro-mechanical manual gearbox. Invariably reviewers tread around the point (Ferrari/Alfa/Maserati/Porshe) etc. are paying for the trip. The change may only take a microsecond, but it also snaps your passenger's head back and forth. Brutal, and acceptable when you are prepared to pay for the transmission to be re-built every 30,000 miles. A friend of mine has a VW GTi with their DSG electro-mechanical, and he says it's really smooth, but that may be because of the "softer" tuning in the clutch releases in this more mundane car, or maybe the lower HP. I'm sure the case is different in something with more than 200HP like you said. He said the computer even nicely blips the throttle when you downshift - emulating "heel-toeing" the brake and accelerator. Link to post Share on other sites
Ezorisu 0 Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Quote: nerd I'll definitely take that as a compliment! Link to post Share on other sites
soubriquet 0 Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I'm glad to read that Ezorisu. I'm not writing electro-mechanical gearboxes off, and I'm certainly out of the loop wrt road tests. I haven't read a motoring mag since I came to Japan. Up to the point of my cutoff though, nothing I read persuaded me they were sufficiently well developed to tempt me. Link to post Share on other sites
Ezorisu 0 Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 They're getting better with what the manufacturers are learning from GP and WRX, but like you said, the premium manufacturers are using stuff straight off the racing circuit so they aren't really built for "daily use", so will need extensive, regular factory service like their racing counterparts. I'd still personally rather have the "dumb" manual clutch and shift lever too! Another thing that is becoming popular (especially in the States) is a "fake" sequential M/T. Mitsubishi introduced a Lancer version with an automatic transmission with steering wheel-mounted magnesium paddle shifters. It's one step beyond the automatics with a "manual mode" where the driver moves the lever to the side when in "D" and can ratchet up and down through the gears and pretend he has a manual. Link to post Share on other sites
Nisoko 6 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Manual all the way. I have only had a one time experience of automatic but I really didn't like it. Perhaps there's more to it than I experienced that day.. Link to post Share on other sites
Ezorisu 0 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I guess automatics are good if all driving to you is "a mindless commute". For those who enjoy the act of driving, a manual can't be beat! Heck, a CVT would be even better for the herds of commuting sheep! Link to post Share on other sites
soubriquet 0 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Wash your mouth out. Autos are fine. D may stand for Dickhead, but I drive mine with the gear lever. (I never have and never will pay for an auto, but she supplies the car and I drive it) Link to post Share on other sites
Ezorisu 0 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Okay, my current Land Cruiser has an automatic. I'm a hypocrite... but it's not like I had a choice! They only offered the 4AT! It's not my fault! Link to post Share on other sites
soubriquet 0 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I'm looking forward to getting a 5 speed auto with steering-wheel control Next time. There are only two cars I've driven that could not have been improved by the addition of another 100 bhp. One was a Ford Galaxie, the other an HQ Holden. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 ah, still playing with this biscuit. Taking delivery of my AUTOMATIC today. 6 speed auto with up down lever. Tri zone aircon, second row reclining seats with otterman and DVD player, bastards, I'll never get to enjoy them. Third row coach class. Link to post Share on other sites
journey_man 0 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: Ezorisu Okay, my current Land Cruiser has an automatic. I'm a hypocrite... but it's not like I had a choice! They only offered the 4AT! It's not my fault! I went on a 4wd course a while back and my Troopie was too big for the course so I used one of the school 4wds - it was an auto and the guy who ran the place swore by them. I did everything just as he said and everything worked just fine. I dunno tho, braking down a super steep slope just seemed wrong, but apparently overall the autos are "better". Give me 2nd Lo anytime! Link to post Share on other sites
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