Go Native 70 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 My main concern is the lack of credulous thought that religions require. Meaning that they require you to believe in something that can not be proven. For many who are religious this is the whole point, you have to have 'faith' that it is true. The problem I have is where do you then then draw the line? If you are prepared to believe in a god for which there is no real proof then what else will you allow yourself to believe in? Are ghosts real? Do vampires exist? Are we constantly being abducted by aliens? Are our alien friends leaving mystical signs for us in wheat fields? Do you believe that because Mars was ascendant at the time of your birth then you are likely to have certain personality traits? Do the lines on my palm hold the key to my future? Can people really contact the dead? Was I Cleopatra in a previous life? For me all the above are equally absurd, including belief in gods. That someone may claim to have seen, felt or experienced something supernatural is no reason to accept it as real. Hell I've seen some pretty weird things in my time under the influence of some recreational mood enhancers but did I claim they were real later on? No... I just want people to view the world a little more sceptically because otherwise we'll all end up like America and Australia and keep voting in complete and utter idiots to lead our countries because we have 'faith' they are telling us the truth! Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 LOL Go Native - The state of government in our country is a completly different issue. I will grant you that Bible Belt USA might have some influence on the candidate based on religion ... but I have trouble believe there would be more than one or two booths WITHIN a seat that will see a decision altered due to religion. Intelligence and Due Diligence are another story! If people actually understood the effect that particular policies had on the nation as a whole, and therefore them personally, they may pay more attention to the process rather than listening to the disgraceful slander ads we are subjected to at the moment. A load of ROT! My personal experiences with the "out of the ordinary" is another matter - I have some stories that would curl your hair - but I will save them till I know you lot a bit better!! Very few of them have to do with Christianity which is what has opened my mind to other faiths, other possibilities and the possibility that we ALL have it wrong!! LOL Link to post Share on other sites
me jane 0 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Originally Posted By: Go Native The problem I have is where do you then then draw the line? If you are prepared to believe in a god for which there is no real proof then what else will you allow yourself to believe in? Are ghosts real? Do vampires exist? Are we constantly being abducted by aliens? Are our alien friends leaving mystical signs for us in wheat fields? Do you believe that because Mars was ascendant at the time of your birth then you are likely to have certain personality traits? Do the lines on my palm hold the key to my future? Can people really contact the dead? Was I Cleopatra in a previous life? Without a little bit of faith we would still be thinking that the world was flat. For example whether or not ghosts are real, people do "see" them just like people who "see the light" when they are near death, if no-one created public interest these "visions" we wouldn't have scientific investigations in to what might be the reason. Where do we draw the line is a very difficult question. A lot of Chinese medicine works. We don't know all the medical reasons yet but if the West had continuted to dismiss it as superstition rubbish as they did for years, we would be without some of the treatments that we take for granted today. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I don't agree with you me jane. We don't need faith to believe that the world is not flat. There are plenty of simple scientific expeiments (that anyone and everyone) can do or be shown to prove without any doubt that the world is not flat. Faith is not a requirement of science. An inquisitive, credulous mind certainly is though. Real science will never ask you to just accept that what they tell you is correct. It will provide the results of experiments that support an hypothesis with a realistic estimate of the error involved. In regards to seeing ghosts. Sure plenty of people believe they have seen ghosts. This doesn't make them real. It's shown that your beliefs, personality and all sorts of other factors will determine how your mind interprets it's surroundings. A fair portion of what we believe we see is actually created by our mind. So you could put a whole lot of people into a similar situation and they will all see and remember things differently based on their own beliefs, experiences and state of mind. So yeah sure I know people truly believe they have seen ghosts or aliens but again this doesn't mean they truly exist. And in regards to Chinese Medicine, I think you will find that most major studies on their effectiveness (there have not been that many) show that they are not significantly more effective than a placebo. But then plenty of western medicines are not much better than placebos as well. Link to post Share on other sites
Fossil 0 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Originally Posted By: Bushpig fjef, I don't want to get drawn into a long debate about this. .........., just that your perception of how non-christians are judged as bad people is not correct. If the people you know are like that, then that sucks. But that is not representative of christianity. I agree, if being good was a pre-requisite for Gods acceptance then half the people in the bible are doomed. Especially Abraham, Samson and David. But the christian church is based on the tenet that it is God's forgiveness not our actions that is the deciding factor. One comforting factor is that if Im wrong about the existance of God, when I die there are no concequences for me. If Im right however Im quids in. That is not a reason to believe God just a comforting thought for those that do. Link to post Share on other sites
me jane 0 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Originally Posted By: Go Native I don't agree with you me jane. We don't need faith to believe that the world is not flat. There are plenty of simple scientific expeiments (that anyone and everyone) can do or be shown to prove without any doubt that the world is not flat. Faith is not a requirement of science. An inquisitive, credulous mind certainly is though. Real science will never ask you to just accept that what they tell you is correct. It will provide the results of experiments that support an hypothesis with a realistic estimate of the error involved. Yes, the world is flat was a bad example but what I meant is that if we don't believe that something might be possible, we wouldn't have any reason to try to prove or disprove it. Originally Posted By: Go Native In regards to seeing ghosts. Sure plenty of people believe they have seen ghosts. This doesn't make them real. It's shown that your beliefs, personality and all sorts of other factors will determine how your mind interprets it's surroundings. A fair portion of what we believe we see is actually created by our mind. So you could put a whole lot of people into a similar situation and they will all see and remember things differently based on their own beliefs, experiences and state of mind. So yeah sure I know people truly believe they have seen ghosts or aliens but again this doesn't mean they truly exist. I know it doesn't mean that ghosts truly exist, what I was trying to say is that, it is these reports of ghosts and other interpretations that in part fuel the scientific research into the human mind. Originally Posted By: Go Native And in regards to Chinese Medicine, I think you will find that most major studies on their effectiveness (there have not been that many) show that they are not significantly more effective than a placebo. But then plenty of western medicines are not much better than placebos as well. I'm not qualified to agree or disagree with you on "most major studies...not significantly more effective" etc. I do know that elements of Chinese medicine are now used in the West as a result of those who did believe in them and did show improvements in their conditions arousing an interest from the Western medical profession. You also raised another interesting point about faith in mentioning placebos. The mind is something we are no where near to understanding and certain faiths are necessary to survive. Take skiing, having faith in yourself that you will not fall at a certain point will reduce the chances of you falling. Some people may call this faith in God but the result is the same (i.e you don't fall over). I think that it doesn't really matter what you call it but that it is human nature to have some kind of faith. Faith, hope, dreams and complex emotions are things that distinguish us from other animals. Link to post Share on other sites
sunrise 0 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I consider myself quite a religious person - BUT - I follow no organised religion nor am I interested in ever doing so. I see god in nature, in music, in art, in sooo many things. A few out of body experiences after being out cold many years ago probably slanted me toward my point of view. Link to post Share on other sites
sunrise 0 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 By the way, Chinese Medicine - the Japanese form called Kampo - has been well documented with medical studies. Doctors at hospitals prescribe people kampo to take to help with things like the aftereffects of chemotherapy. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Originally Posted By: me jane I think that it doesn't really matter what you call it but that it is human nature to have some kind of faith. Faith, hope, dreams and complex emotions are things that distinguish us from other animals. Don't disagree at all with this. Religion has been in pretty much all societies since the beginnings of humankind. I'm extremely interested in the reasons why people need religion. Mostly I feel it has to do with being part of a community that accepts and supports you. This need is defintely ingrained in us all. But just as a gang member may go out to kill another gang member to prove his allegiance to his gang, religous people will also do all sorts of crazy things to prove their devotion and allegiance to their religion...like strapping bombs to themselves and blowing it up on a crowded bus. Back to Chinese Medicine. There was a major study done recently in the US about the effectiveness of treatment for back pain, comparing western medicine and accupuncture. The people in the studies were asked did they think the treatment had helped their pain. Accupunture came out quite a bit ahead of western medicine. The funny thing was that they also had a group who received accupuncture but the needles were not placed in any spot that is meant to help treat back pain (so basically a placebo) and it was this group that had the highest percentage of people saying the treatment had helped! So yes the mind is an amazing thing....if it truly believes it is being given helpful treatment it seems to help itself pretty damn well. Positive thinking goes a long way Link to post Share on other sites
HelperElfMissy 42 Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Originally Posted By: Go Native Positive thinking goes a long way YES it sure does!! Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 actually, herbal or Chinese medicine has been a great help in my life. Halalujah there is a god.. Link to post Share on other sites
bushpig 0 Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 It's all in your head though Thursday. None of it is real and it's all placebo effect Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 I can post a whole lot of links to studies done on the effectiveness of traditional Chinese medicine if people want. Or just do some searches on google yourself. To sum up, most studies done in China itself generally don't meet the rigorous standards of normal scientific procedure. Generally the size of the study groups are not large enough(generally not larger than 300 participants) to produce meaningful statistical results, that the selection criteria are often stacked, and that double blind groups are often not included at all. Studies done in the west using stricter standards have found that the effectiveness is generally not more than the control group receiving a placebo. If people can find peer reviewed studies published in credible medical journals that show findings contrary to this please let me know. And Thursday do you really think that tiger penis and rhino horn is helping your sex life? Just get some viagra man! Link to post Share on other sites
bushpig 0 Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Nice one. Link to post Share on other sites
sunrise 0 Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 hmmmm, there's a lot more to chinese meds than that. But whatever...... Link to post Share on other sites
fjef 0 Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 I wonder what Jesus would say about Chinese medicine? Link to post Share on other sites
the snowboarding vicar 1 Posted November 20, 2007 Author Share Posted November 20, 2007 You guys still going at it? I'll have to sit back with a cup of tea tomorrow morning and read up on it all again! Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 no, it seems not. It's a load of bollox and you are a fake mustache. Link to post Share on other sites
the snowboarding vicar 1 Posted November 27, 2007 Author Share Posted November 27, 2007 Quote: It's a load of bollox and you are a fake mustache. That's really not called for. If you so dislike even the idea of religion, why do you persist in posting on this thread? I find that attitude quite puzzling. Link to post Share on other sites
thursday 1 Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 apologies for that vicar. Please have a cucumber sarnie. Link to post Share on other sites
bushpig 0 Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 ignore Thursday, he was just being his old affable self Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 lol @ Thursday!!! Yeah, don't take him seriously, he's obnoxious (sp? ) all the time!!! Link to post Share on other sites
the snowboarding vicar 1 Posted November 28, 2007 Author Share Posted November 28, 2007 But I'll still have the cucumber sandwich (as long as it is triangular) and suitably dainty. Link to post Share on other sites
echineko 1 Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 When go to church what is different from pray (?) at home? I don't know what church experience is like. Link to post Share on other sites
samurai 0 Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 phenomenal question. I'll let another answer that... (personally, there is no difference, but I don't go to church very often... like once every 5 years for cultural experiences. ie- I'm in another country or something. ) Link to post Share on other sites
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