Ski industry situation on tv this morning

[SkiBaka 0]

 

Promoting a product domestically, to a market totally disillusioned by its 'fun vs the cost', together with poor, no commonsense customer service thrown in, will really turn things around ...

 

The 'Resort' industry here getting together with thoses helpful government bodies to butt heads .. WOW !

 

Let's bow alittle lower and make the onsen water more refreshing.

 

Hey, Gaigin san is powder lover ...

 

Kokusai resoruto make big money ... nande ?

 

Sad " title="" src="graemlins/cry.gif" />

[SKI 15]

Now that's not a very positive attitude, is it?

[mumbojumbo 0]

Articles like that are just completely useless aren't they? (Like the "strategies" they seem to be reporting there as well).

 

It reminds me why I don't pay for a newspaper any more, complete waste of time.

[Ocean11 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by SKI:
Now that's not a very positive attitude, is it?

There are already enough shit-eating, yes-men foreigners in Japan, overflowing with 'positive attitude'. Their attitude contributes to the chronic mediocrity one sees all over Japan these days, including in the ski business and news media, by not challenging their Japanese counterparts to do any better. (One reason perhaps why Japanese education has such an appetite for 'fresh' foreign teachers...?)

"Now, we don't mind criticism - in fact we welcome it. But, let's keep it constructive shall we?"

Sad indeed.

[SKI 15]

Know what you're saying, mumbojumbo.

 

Lightweight 'articles' like that only give more easy and ill-informed ammunition to the critisize-anything-know-it-all brigade.

[Fattwins 0]

SKI man at times I dont get you, are you tring to pick a fight this is a Forum thus we tend to post ideas and questions. If you know of a way to introduce our ideas to the resorts then why not tell us. Instead you say we are lazy and mock us of all the people I have talked to on this site your the one guy I figure I would never want to meet. Dude you are not nice.

[SKI 15]

I am not trying to pick a fight at all, unlike some people.

 

"Dude you are not nice"

 

 

Have you not read some other people's posts? That's a joke! At the same time, I'm sure I wouldn't want to meet you either.... Big deal.

 

I am not saying that I have the solutions - that is one of the main points here, and if you had read my comments throughout this thread you would know that.

[smiler 0]

I read all of this with interest.

 

Although I enjoy the slopes being empty myself, from another point of view I do find it all quite sad. I've lived in Japan for over 30 years and seen both the boom and the current decline.

 

I do have some friends from my schooldays who are closely involved in the ski industry here - some of them in management at a couple of resorts in Niigata and Gifu. I am also indirectly involved in the industry and so do attend quite a few conferences and seminars covering the business and speak to resort types from time to time.

 

As you might know, the 2 regions - Niigata and Gifu - are seeing quite different results and trends recently for a number of reasons.

 

Whenever we all meet up, this topic is always on the agenda, and it always makes for an interesting conversation. It's interesting to see what different resorts are thinking and planning for the future - if anything. There are obviously lots of places that are basically just trying to survive from year to year, just scraping by. They literally don't have any resources available to them to do anything that costs. But it's interesting that the management at this kind of place seem to either fall into the "hey we need to do something, lets try to do something positive within the limits we have" category, or the lame "there's nothing we can do, lets just hope the economy picks up" category. (Hopefully the latter won't last long...)

 

There are lots of resorts apparently doing nothing, or at least not doing things that the hardcore type of skier/boarder might approve of, but the hardcore is actually most likely not the main consideration for many resorts. (Whether it should be or not is a different matter, of course.)

 

But there are places that are actively trying to change and look at new ideas.... it just takes time.

 

-----

 

Oh, by the way..... trying to ignore all the handbags and scratching between the two 'sides' on this thread is quite difficult - and as a newcomer here, you're both as bad as each other.

 

-----

[Ocean11 0]

What do you do smiler (if I may ask)?

 

And what have Niigata and Gifu done in particular?

 

I wrote an articule about this a while back. While it's more a flight of fancy than anything else, I wonder how many resorts apply any imagination to any aspect of their business.

 

The new resort Plana near me that opened this year, with the stated goal of attracting Ehime boarders who currently go to Hiroshima, has absolutely nothing novel, exciting, or interesting about it. It seems to be trying to differentiate itself by playing a selection of dreadful music at a louder, genkier volume. And Sol-Fa, which just put in a new lift, has toilets that don't work in the cold...

 

But let's have a positive attitude about this and accept that we can't possibly understand the realities.

 

[smiler 0]

I own a catering company and we actually supply and provide services to some resorts as part of our business.

 

What have resorts done? That of course depends on each resort, but in general as you probably know the places in Gifu are doing relatively much better than places in Niigata these last few years. I personally feel that many places in Niigata got real complacent during the boom and thought it would last forever - and of course it didn't. Now the ones that aren't just sitting around waiting for "the economy to get better" are basically playing catch up.

 

Any big changes to the main operations of a ski field will probably take quite a while to actually happen, simply because of the complexities involved - however quickly the acutal management wants to see those changes happen. But it doesn't mean that nothing is happening. Many of the changes in operation and policy that you will see in the short term are probably ones that the hardcore riders won't get too excited about - those involving catering, childrens facilities, etc. Believe it or not, many Japanese find those aspects of a "ski holiday" to be important.

 

 Quote:

I wonder how many resorts apply any imagination to any aspect of their business.

Some of them that we work with certainly seem to, while others don't. Thats just from my limited experienced....

 

 Quote:

But let's have a positive attitude about this and accept that we can't possibly understand the realities.

Is that sarcasm really necessary?

 

As far as I can see, no-one even implied that you "can't possibly understand the realities", just the fact that you do not know the reality of the situation and the environment in which resorts are operating (and I agree with that point)

 

[Ocean11 0]

smiler, you seem to be making 2 dubious assumptions.

 

What exactly do you mean by 'hardcore'? There are backcountry riders who may never go to a resort, and they're probably irrelevant to this discussion. But there are riders going from between 10 and 60 or more times a season to resorts. There are services and things that would please them that the resorts could do but don't. I'm not particularly 'hardcore' myself - my needs are not that sophisticated but they're often not met, and the resorts are doing nothing to stimulate new needs. I also am part of a family, but that side of things isn't looked after nearly enough either, so I'm going less than I might.

 

And if there is an 'environment' that resorts are working in that I don't know about, then could you spell out what it is? YOGURT can't, hence my sarcasm. Having seen the environment that various manufacturing and service businesses work in at first hand, I know that an environment where you constantly shoot yourself in the foot isn't conducive to success. I see resorts doing exactly the same thing.

 

So come on smiler. If you want a discussion rather than handbag swinging, how about explaining what specifically hinders those resorts that actually want to improve (or whatever it is you mean by the 'environment)? There is at least 1 other person on this thread who claims to be reasonably intimate with the situation at Japanese resorts and who appears to think it's dire.

 

Does anybody know of any resort website with information in any language other than Japanese and a bit of English...?

[smiler 0]

Ocean11,

 

Dubious assumptions? I don't think so.

 

The "hardcore" comment was incidental and not an important part of the point I was making. You can take that comment out of what I wrote and it still stands.

 

Of course some/many resorts do not provide exactly what you want - but some/many does not equal "all" and I wasn't implying that either. I was just stating that some/many resorts are making efforts, some that can be seen, some that cannot at the moment and might take time to happen. Perhaps you living down there in Shikoku, you don't get much experience of certain resorts I am talking about in Niigata that seem to be having good success with new programs concentrating on 'family'?

 Quote:

And if there is an 'environment' that resorts are working in that I don't know about, then could you spell out what it is?

I'm sure I said this in my previous post, but I do not know all the specifics and apparently neither does anyone else here.

 

But how about these general issues just for possible starters off the top of my head - costs (a really big one, that), local town regulations, government regulations, land issues, staffing issues, etc etc.....

 

Just a quick example - I know of one resort that would dearly like to open up a new lift and open up an area that has great potential (that I think many people on here would be real happy about!), but they simply cannot because of land issues - it is simply beyond their control, but they are continuing to push for it in the necessary places and have been for literally years. Whether they eventually will be able to do this or not is a ?, but they seem to be giving it their best shot. And I sure want to go if they get the go-ahead in the future - it will be very popular.

 

 Quote:

There is at least 1 other person on this thread who claims to be reasonably intimate with the situation at Japanese resorts and who appears to think it's dire.

I might have missed that. Who are you talking about? And this person 'claims to be reasonably intimate with the situation at Japanese resorts'. But surely that 'situation' will be different at each and every resort? Does he know them all? And even if that person knew one (or a few even) resorts really well, that still doesn't mean that he/she is in any way knows whats going on at many other resorts and the management there. I am involved with some resorts myself, but I don't claim to know more than that. Anything else is just guessing. What I do know is that the management at each resort varies greatly, just like it does in other industries. Some are really competent and some are (very!) not.

 

And one other interesting thing, Ocean11 - I presume that you are referring to the user SKI when you address someone as YOGURT (?). Why is that? Is that intended to be offensive? I'm sure SKI is not losing any sleep over it, but it does seem very childish.

 

Anyway, I don't spend hours a day writing essays on internet forums as a rule (!) and try to spend as little time in front of a computer as possible, so I'm off for now. Off to Gifu for 4 days, so see you around.

 

[r45 4]

Many smaller places up here seem to be going all family in their operations as much as possible, there was something on the local tv news about it all a while back. It seems that is the market some of these places are concentrating on in an effort to expand their business. (Whether its a success or not, I don't know).

[SKI 15]

smiler

 

Hi there.

 

Have you seen many changes at all with respect to your business, catering, and the resorts you work with? Are you inclined to tell us any more on that at all?

 

----

 

And no, I'm not losing any sleep, believe it or not.

[enderzero 0]

Good thread - always an interesting subject.

 

After just spending a month in Niseko I was shocked at the number of gaijin that town supports. This is really different than Honshu folks. Unlike the Japan based gaijin you find in Hakuba or Yuzawa, these are mainly tourists. Aussies coming up for 2 weeks or sometimes less, specifically to ski and snowboard. And Niseko caters to them without batting an eye. There are English course maps, English signs, English menus at all the restaurants, that little genki girl on Hana-1 that says "thank you" when a gaijin gets off the lift. After being in Japan for over a year it is staggering to see.

 

So what is different? I think the gaijin got a foot in the door in Niseko earlier. There are some dedicated folks up there that have been living year round or coming back for quite some time. The community is so small it is easy for them to get to know the management. The gaijin are making money by bringing in more gaijin, which in turn makes money for the resorts and the town. It is simple economics that works the way it should, unlike the confusion that seems to persist in other parts of this country.

 

I assume that the Honshu based resorts are stuck in the bubble. When 99% of their clientele were Japanese making expensive weekend trips from the metropolises it was easy to make money without offering incentives. Now you have only the dedicated riders willing to go often and they are demanding a higher level of service. So freakin give it to them. And give it to us. As the number of Japanese visiting your resorts are decreasing, the percentage of gaijin is increasing. It is time to cater to that.

 

Let me ask this: if there was a struggling ski resort in say America or Canada that had some obvious management issues, and a hot shot Japanese or French or Swiss company stepped in and said, "We know how to increase profits at your resort." Do you think that resort would hesitate to hear them out? Can you imagine this situation happening in Japan? What are the chances of a resort in Nagano hiring someone like Fattwins in a high management/consultant role to improve business? The chances are a lot better in Niseko. That is why Niseko is going to absolutely explode in the next few years. Think Whistler of Japan.

 

SKI - first and foremost, can you please once and for all explain what the fu*k your stupid signature means? Ocean has been calling you Yogurt for over a year and you have never explained what the hell that is.

 

Second, I just want to go on the record as saying that the only thing you have added to this thread (and more or less this forum) is to keep people posting because they are so astonished at how inane your posts are. Can you read what you are writing? It is like arguing with 4 year old. You try to contradict thought out posts and opinions with empty blanket statements, completely overlooking the fact that some might consider any kind of reasoning or examples a good way to back up what you are saying. And then you just go and hide in your little smug "I don't have to listen to what you say because you obviously don't know what you are talking about" hole when some one calls you out. It is childish, and I wish there was some way I could make you understand that, but I am sure it is hopeless.

[SKI 15]

Great! Another expert!

 

 Quote:

Can you read what you are writing?

Er, yes. Can you?

 

 Quote:

It is like arguing with 4 year old. You try to contradict thought out posts and opinions with empty blanket statements, completely overlooking the fact that some might consider any kind of reasoning or examples a good way to back up what you are saying.

Er, no. Ah! Hold on a mo'.... you mean the thought out posts like...

 

- "Let's bow alittle lower and make the onsen water more refreshing."

 

- "I'm sure the reason for the increased ticket sales in all the other countries must be because their customers have sat down and drawn up tips and plans. Yes, definitely, that's it. Problem solved."

 

etc etc....??

 

Oh, right, ....I see.

 

 Quote:

And then you just go and hide in your little smug "I don't have to listen to what you say because you obviously don't know what you are talking about" hole when some one calls you out.

Not true. I do not say that I do not have to listen to what others say. If you could read yourself and you read through the points, you would see that in this case I am trying to bring some reality to the situation - bring some balance to all of the one-side opinions of the people who seem to think that they are "experts" here and know exactly what to do. Are you an expert on the Japanese ski industry? Is SkiBaka? Is Ocean11? I reckon not.

 

 Quote:

It is childish, and I wish there was some way I could make you understand that, but I am sure it is hopeless.

I'm sure you think that extremely childish school playground level name-calling is mature then??

[mattlucas 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by enderzero:


that little genki girl on Hana-1 that says "thank you" when a gaijin gets off the lift

That girl was so genki. She was always so happy and even gave us candy although Crazyski managed to drop most of it. We were always doing laps on Hana 1 so we would always see her. A fun liftee like that just makes the day so much better.

[enderzero 0]

You forgot to explain the Yogurt thing bro.

[damian 0]

SKI

[SKI 15]

Oops, so I did.

 

Seems d!)!)!b got there first.

[enderzero 0]

ahhhhh. Well I'll be. That explains it... he's an Aussie.

 

Just kidding guys.

[Ocean11 0]

Funny, I found this in my mailbox from a while back.

 

> --- "Editor, SnowJapan.Com"

> wrote:

> > Hello

> > The Forum user SKI has objected to you continuing

> to

> > call him Yoghurt.

> > Can you please either delete that, or change it?

> > Thank you.

 

'Balance' itself isn't a virtue - you can put a bunch of turds on scales to weigh the same amount as something valuable, but it's still turds.

 

So, how many resort websites are appealing to markets beyond Japan? Anybody? smiler (who posts on forums but doesn't like computers and knows all about the industry but can't tell (heheh)?

[SKI 15]

.....And if I were less of a "nice person", I might be tempted to copy and paste some of the whinings and "dented feelings" complaints that apparently you have sent into Snow Japan asking them to edit or delete me - but I wouldn't stoop so low or be so childish.

[Ocean11 0]

Typical passive-aggressive response.

 

Post 'em Yogurt, go on.

[SKI 15]

Like I said, not that childish. And, I suppose, basically I really couldn't give a shit.

 

I thought you'd buggered off anyway....