Learnings Japanese - golden tips/advice

[damian 0]

This forum serves as an excellent source of info about Japan life etc.

 

So I thought I might venture to ask some learning Japanese suggestions (from a native English speaker background, never having learnt any other language).

 

I have had a total of 40 hours of lessons and am not at all very skilled in Japanese.

 

No offence meant to my teacher, great lady, but she is not an expert in English, so she cant seem to grasp why a native English speaker might find Japanese so odd. Obviously the words are different and I get the fact that either English or Japanese is back to front, but what about the key difference between the two languages. HOW are they different as languages? (besides different words and reversed sentence order).

 

I suppose I have two similar questions:

 

1. is there a “thing” that when you see it, learning Japanese makes a little more sense. Perhaps this “thing” is that key fundamental difference between the two languages.

 

2. are there any good learning techniques that can be used, or is it simply brute force… memorise vocab and practice?

 

A rough example of what I mean by all this is the following, if it is actually correct.

 

Only recently it dawned on me that all these particles (wa, ga, de, no, ni, o, to, etc) don't actually have any singular meaning. At least I believe this to be the case? Had my teacher bothered to point this out to me in the beginning I may have made more sense of the string of words that I was supposed to “memorise'. I prefer to understand why something is as it is… how does it work etc.

 

I am not looking for a substitute for hard work, no quick fix etc. What I am hoping for is a line such as…

 

“as an English speaker you are having difficulty because English speakers don't realise that ___________. When learning Japanese, an English speaker needs to think in terms of __________.”

 

Or perhaps …

 

“when I was learning Japanese I found it very strange, until I realised that ______________.”

 

cheers

[danz 0]

I can't give you a canned answer...but maybe this will help...

 

as for improving: you gotta put in the time to get the basic skills/vocab down...same for any language..

but for conversation, there is no substitute for just going out there and talking...even if it means making a complete fool out of yourself...

I still go to my local dive bar as #1 source for learning japanese...they barely speak english, so you are forced to speak...and its good fun too after a few drinks...

 

as for key differences: this helped me alot...

I realized that speaking is actually alot like cartoon bubbles...if you are happy, you don't say "I am so happy"...you just say "happy"...kind of like the roadrunner cartoons...single word ideas/concepts substitute for the full english sentence...

 

that is one of the reasons why it sounds funny when japanese speak english...because they just say the main idea without any reference to subject...

 

ok...enough for now...

ganbare

danz

[Ocean11 0]

I always like to play fill in the sentence. Here's my try.

 

"as an English speaker you are having difficulty because English speakers don’t realise that they're not Japanese".

 

"When learning Japanese, an English speaker needs to think in terms of illogic."

 

"when I was learning Japanese I found it very strange, until I realised that it didn't matter a crooked sixpence."

 

I hope that helps, but I don't expect it will. Sorry.

 

This has all the makings of cracking good thread. danz is definitely onto something when he recommends having a few drinks first...

[mogski 0]

deebee I wish I could help you with this one, but I was fortunate enough to learn the basics from the age of 12 followed by a 1 year exchange program at the age of 16 and three more years at Uni.

 

Vocab is a real good one to work hard on. With the vocab comes Kanji. Without vocab you cannot grasp the intricacies of the grammar.

 

For me what really helped in the early stages was repetition of grammar patterns and vocab and also rote learning the Kanji. Another thing that helped was listening into peoples conversations and trying to fathom the subject. Aslo reading everything and anything I could or couldn't and writing down what I couldn't, going home and looking it up.

 

If you wanna get good at Japanese my vote goes to diligent learning of the basics. I went through them three times as a result of each educational instution I attended complete's course.

 

I don't think there is a key outside of hard work to learning Japanese, just like there isn't a key to learning any other language.

 

Making Japanese freinds also helps too.

 

Well that's my bit. Good luck.

[damian 0]

11 - You are a smart arse, but very funny! I think that is exactly how I would have responded.

 

I respect your right to say stuff off, but I understand that you have been here for a fair while, surely you have one pearl of wisdom.

[damian 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by danz:

single word ideas/concepts substitute for the full english sentence...
danz

I think I have started to notice this. At the casual level of communicating I often here people make a call to someones mobile phone and they will ask "ima doko". That to an english speaker is an incomplete sentence and a somewhat blunt, rude sounding thing to say. But, for casual talk, it appears ok here.

Another problem I have is verbal over kill. I say way more than I need to when forming a sentence. When I start a sentence in Japanese I get stuck for the words as I am trying to use all the little extra words that dont appear to be needed in Japanese. Essentially I try to say something in the manner I would in English, except using the Japanese languag... and it just doesnt seem to work that way.

[Ocean11 0]

What you're talking there is 'communication strategies' deebee. You're using the wrong one in trying to replicate English with Japanese, as you already know. Thinking in terms of communication strategies is also helpful in coping when you have less than a full vocabulary. It's hard to be more specific about this aspect, but you're already pointing in that direction when you notice how economically Japanese people can communicate. That's a good start. (BTW, I always love to hear Japanese people on mobile phones say 'ima nani shiteru?' The answer of course being, 'Here is Japan. I'm talking on my mobile phone you pillock.'

 

In many ways, the rote learning aspect is indispensable. Gotta sit down with your textbooks every night. But I'd advise studying other stuff too. Try reading the funnies in the paper. There are (text)books around that look at local dialects or types of slang - those can be an eye-opener too. Textbooks will often only give you superficial Japanese (or at least they used to).

 

Steer clear of Japanese women though. They are not looking to teach you Japanese, whatever they may say to the contrary...

[D train 0]

If you get a Japanese girl friend- a classic way to learn the language- but be forwarned that girl talk is very different than manly vocab- advice given by a guy who walked around calling everyone ****chan or ***kun the first three months I was here

[damian 0]

Ocean - thanks for the input. Appreciated.

 

I have tried to convince my girlf that we should introduce a long haired dictionary to the relationship. She wasnt on the take.

 

what does the -kun on the end of a name mean? Is it like -san? Why dont men use -kun when refering to others?

[Markie 0]

Thanks, deebee, for raising the question, and also to Danz and the others for responding. I have been trying for a bit more than a year now to study between 15 to 30 minutes of Japanese every day. So this is all very interesting, not least because it has been my lifelong dream to get a Japanese wife or at least a girlfriend.

[bobby12 0]

I ignored all advice to drop romaji textbooks and only started reading and writing in Japanese a few months ago (after being here a year). Since changing, my level has upped remarkably.

 

I recommend studying for the 4-kyu test in Dec as soon as you can, and then the 3-kyu etc each year. It really presses you on. Once you get 4-kyu you can get a decent study method sorted out (full japanese (kanji with furigana) textbooks, a good kanji learning book, etc).

 

Also, buy an electronic dictionary. When you come across a useful word, store it. Then, on the train you can revise those stored words. Eventually, you will get all the common vocab down.

 

This doesn't answer your question directly but, coming from a fellow newbie (whos doing 3-kyu this Dec) I hope it helps.

[Ocean11 0]

Electronic dictionaries are good, yes. That's very good advice. Take it everywhere. Also, try and find a good one for your computer too.

 

The test bobby mentions are also good discipline. Good luck with the upcoming Grade 3!

[fukdane 2]

 Quote:

my lifelong dream to get a Japanese wife or at least a girlfriend

Why's that then mate?

[Markie 0]

Funny you should ask, Fukdane, just when Yuki's Passion dug up the old thread about "Is Japanese a difficult language?". Your question is asked and answered in there.

 

I notice Echineko (a.k.a. Miss Naughty) making a "hihi" comment there too. She's probably an excellent example of someone who can easily drive me crazy.

[frannyo 2]

Partner is the answer

[woywoy 0]

Its a question good Japanese speakers get asked all the time by newbies. And I really think its a great question to ask. These guys have got to where you want to be with your Japanese skills and what better way than getting their advice.

 

So, getting an electronic dictionary is a great start. Sure its good to have a big fat one at home to look things up that you havent heard of before... but you can take electronic dictionaries anywhere, they are light in weight, and the words come straight up for you! When you finally get one you realise how stupid you were for not buying one earlier! Buying one of thse dictionaries also makes you learn Katakana and Hiragana as well as getting you exposed to a decent amount of kanji... even if you cant read it yourself at least you will have had at least SEEN them before and the more you see the kanji the more chance that you have to be able to read that kanji and know the meaning. Buying overseas though is certainly more expensive than buying in Japan. So get yourself a good deal! Always bargain with them in the shop too.

 

Another good thing to do is use your spare time on the train etc. to try and read things like all those ads on the train and also when they announce all the stations and where the express train is not going to stop and all that sort of thing. If you cant read the kanji, look it up on the train with your electronic dictionary and write it in your "tango-cho" or in the memory in your electronic dictionary and then test yourself later. The train is definitely a good place to study though... like someone else said you can listen in on other people's conversation and if you have had a few lagers you can even join in the conversation if you have the balls!

 

I was lucky to have learnt japanese from the time I was 13 as well and although my speaking and listening skills were pretty shite, once you get the basics and then actually head off to japan and get into it a bit more you get the speaking and listening sussed relatively quickly. Of course with only a few hundred kanji under ya belt ya dont have much chance with a japanese newspaper, and anything horrid like that, but you see kanji you know and dont know and if you ganbaru with looking up stuff that you dont know then you will be reading kanji like a japa person before ya know it!!!

 

For speaking and listening skills though... watch lots of TV, make yourself listen to a little bit of crappy j-pop and bob's your uncle. TV is especially good though as the jap programs all have these strange subtitles down the bottom all the time so if you dont understand what they are saying you can have a dig at reading the subtitley things. Some of those real weird or echi shows are good... just so you dont get too bad. I tell ya though it doesnt even feel like studying when you get to watch TV and it is actually study!

 

So go for it deebee! If you get one of those dicks who are hanging out with all japanese people and think they are the shit JUST because they can speak a foreign language then just ignore them... there are plenty of decent people out there who would love to give you a few tips.

[Ocean11 0]

There's only one problem with electronic dictionaries - they don't have many examples of usage, often only the one. This can lead you up some funny avenues, so you want to get a decent paper (or PC) dictionary for backup. I relied on my Canon Word Tank far too much when I started translating, hence all my early work was total crap.

 

Steer clear of the gaijin who would rather give you a meishi than shake your dirty hand.

 

I've always envied Ozbods for the early start some of them get in Japanese - that must be a great help. I can still pull some French out of my hat if pressured - thanks to an early start.

[enderzero 0]

Anyone have a good portable electronic dictionary they would recommend? A tiny bit of preliminary research found me a ton of Japanese-English ones geared towards Japanese natives. What are some recommended ones for English natives?

[damian 0]

Ender - these dictionaries are difficult to shop for. I have been looking at them for a while and cant work out what the best style would be.

[Ocean11 0]

The Canon Word Tank was very popular some 8 years ago. I dunno about now. But worth checking out. Good for English speakers.

[Yuki's Passion 1]

I have a Casio Ex-Word that I got 2 years ago. At that time it was the "top model" and today I havent found one that I like better - always looking at toys If youre going to buy one of these dictionaries I would recommend not being stingy and making a smart investment. Mine was somewhere around the 30,000. It has everything possible - but, like Ocean said, the examples are a little weak.

 

But, before buying that, I would recommend buying the Nelson's Kanji Dictionary and learn how to use that. If you dont know or learn many of the common radicals (bushu) you wont be able to search the kanji part of the dictionary for the readings of Kanji you dont know. I hope this helps!!!

[veronica 2]

I used to have one of them word tanks, it was a real life-saver. Used to call it "Kenichi". I'm sure they have improved too.