semisenil 0 Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Couple of hundred outside the American Embassy in Tokyo Link to post Share on other sites
zebedee 1 Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 All this talk of boycotting French wine and cheeses etc is tiresome and just pathetic. Link to post Share on other sites
JEZx 0 Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 "We liberated the French from the Nazis." That was just said on the news just now (Hannity?). So he reckons that because the French do not agree with the US stance, then they are traitors and Americans should boycot French products. What a whole load of bull. Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 I wouldn't use the word "Traitor" to describe the french since that would imply they were "with America" in the first place. Boycotting is the right of everyone. If "vegans" don't want to eat meat, they have the right not too, aka "boycotting" right? The same that folks who disagree with American policies have the right to not eat at McDonalds, or drink a Coke, or use some other "made in America" product. Thats the beauty of freedom - we get to pretty much do what we want unless our actions bring harm to someone else, i.e. I can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater unless there really is a fire. Did you know there are folks out there who don't want us to snow board or snow ski too cause "our actions cause irreversible damage to the forrests"? They'd love it if we boycott the ski resorts... Every day we choose which causes we're going to fight for/do something about, and which ones we're going to ignore cause we don't care or they don't serve our interests. Thats the way the world turns... Link to post Share on other sites
mwahahahaha 0 Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Forgive me for butting in here will ya, but I don't think that is the point, RayInJapan. Of course we all have the right to boycott things if that is how we feel. But it is just this sudden "Boycott France" media campaign that is going on in the US now that is childish in the extreme, destructive and - dare I say, as is often the case absurdly arrogant. Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Childish is in the eye of the beholder, as is whether or not folks are being arrogant. You're implying that a boycott of french products would actually make the french goverment do something. Now if the US government enacted an embargo - that would be different. Everyone loves to hate Americans, can't stand em, can't stand what America is all about. Wasn't too long ago that there was a wall, with guards armed with machine guns that actually shot anyone who tried to climb over it. Most of the folks who use the internet (and this site) are too young to remember much about it, let alone have actually seen the wall. That wall divided the free world and communism. Everyone hated the commies and everything they stood for. It was America's resolve that kept them at bay, and the commies finally saw the light and tore down those walls. More people enjoy true freedom than than at any other time in history, but do people appreciate that? No. Do people remember the horror and grief they felt when two of the most famous buildings in the world came crashing down? Seem not, when all they can do is complain about is how childish Americans are because they want to boycott french wine. How good life must be for some folks, when all they have to complain about, is what Americans are doing. What I'd like to know, is what exactly has America done to you personally, or are you just regurgitating what you've seen on tv or read on the net? As for me - If I travel anywhere outside of Japan (which is pretty much terrorism free at the moment), I have a big fat bullseye on my forehead just waiting for the idiot who wants to become a martyr and kill Americans. My preference is to get back to the days when I could go anywhere I wanted without worry...but until we win the war on terroism, that aint gonna happen. So until we do win it, we're gonna do whatever it takes. If you're not a terrorist or a supporter of terrorism, you have nothing to fear. Unlike murdering dictators and terrorists, we don't target innocents. People like to call Bush the terrorist. Show me the innocent people he has killed. We have more than enough oil in the US to meet our needs. There is plenty to be used from South America as well, so this fight isn't about oil. Its about good and evil. Someone calculated the percentage of the worlds people involved in the recent peace protests - it was something like 0.0067 percent of the worlds population. Seems to me the protests don't carry much weight with most people. What percentage of this forum felt so stongly about the issue that THEY protested? Mind you, I prefer we don't go to war with Iraq. If it were up to me, I'd give the vocal minority what they want: Saddam the freedom to do as he pleases, Kim the same. I'd pull out our forces from South Korea, the middle east, and all of Europe. Then I'd focus on helping our neighbors in Central and South America, see if they can't create their own version of the euro (how many countries does it take to pool their money to match the power of the dollar anyway?), and then let the rest of the world deal with their own problems. Wouldn't that be an interesting sight to see... Am I being childish? Arrogant? To some yes, to others - no. Does everyone have to agree with me? No. Thats the beauty of the free world. Freedom means we have the power to choose our thoughts and actions. Time for bed...enjoy all... Link to post Share on other sites
enderzero 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Quote: Originally posted by RayInJapan: Everyone hated the commies and everything they stood for. You sure about that Joe? Watch out with those pronouns. What does that mean "it's about good and evil." What is evil? What is good? You want to talk about eye of the beholder...go ask Saddam Hussein if he is evil. How about one of his many supporters? This isn't a comic book, this is real life and things can't just be broken down that easily. This is about so much more than what is right and what is wrong. It's about flexing political muscle. Quote: Originally posted by RayInJapan: Do people remember the horror and grief they felt when two of the most famous buildings in the world came crashing down? So what does that have to do with the situation in Iraq? The attack on the twin towers was about the hate that a certain group of people felt for what America stands for to them. The current actions that Bush is taking will only add to that hate. I don't understand why you say all of these things and then go on to say you don't support war. It sure doesn't sound like you have a problem with it. Are you of the mind that if it was your decision you wouldn't go to war, but since Bush is our president you will follow him unquestionably? I am not trying to pick a fight by any means. It just sounds like you are giving some conflicting points of view. Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 I guess technically, you're right. Not everyone hated the commies. Castro, Kim, and China's government still love that ideal. But the folks who started it gave it up cause they know its not a good form of government, especially when it calls for you to kill those who want to escape it. What do the twin towers have to do with Iraq? The towers were a wake up call. America needs to take the fight to the terrorists and those who sponsor them. Saddam pays Palestinians to be suicide bombers. He harbors known terrorists within his country. He has created and used WMD. We took it to the Taliban for harboring/helping Bin Laden, and we're going to take it to Saddam unless he comes clean. While the US will go it alone if need be, Bush has proven world opinion counts for something - we could have attacked months ago if all it were about was revenge for his daddy. Yes the fact is I don't want to go to war if we don't have to. I've seen first hand what that does. I've seen what looked like hamburger on the ground but upon closer inspection realized it was the remains of an Iraqi soldier who was run over by an M-1 Abrahams tank. I've seen a severed arm laying in the sand with a ring on the wedding finger. You see - I'm in the US military. So no - I don't WANT to go to war. I've spent most of my 42 years of life hoping to avoid war when possible cause its an ugly business. But when our backs are against the wall, and the President of the US says go - thats what I do. You can call it "blindly". I call it obidiently. Thousands of people did it before me to ensure the freedoms I enjoy, my military service has been my "payback". But in my 23 years of military service, I have yet to see our country involved in an "unjust" war. I don't consider you're comments a "fight". They're valid the same as everyones opinion. One thing for sure - its a lot harder to get our point across via the net than it is chatting in person. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Quote: Originally posted by RayInJapan: ...created and used WMD. .....helping Bin Laden america has done both of these things. my pointless opinion: war on terrorists = unwinnable: how can you beat terrorists when 99% of terrorists are not yet terrorists. Winning would require killing very person who might ever decide to become a terrorist. there is something ironic about naming McDonalds and Coke as two American consumer items that could be globally boycotted. c) in terms of freemarket derived value, the British Pound is historically the most powerful currency in the world, not the USD. The USD will not be very powerful for much longer anyway. d) this is all the latest chapter in the never ending war between Christians and Muslims. It has been happening for a VERY long time. And I for one am fkucing sick of this war being a influence on my life and the world I live in. c) America is not the only country that has fought for "freedom'. The USA does not have a patent/copyright on mothers crying for sons slaughtered in war. d) as for the French “never being with us in the first place”. I am not with the USA on this war, nor on the stinking Nkorea mess that Bush created by coming up with his Axis of Evil drivel. Why can I not escape the feeling that America dislikes me for having this opinion. e) if Americans are like the guys I went boarding with on the weekend then America is populated with great people. I think your leaders are letting you down. Link to post Share on other sites
enderzero 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Thanks db. Here is a link to a speech by Democratic Senator (WV) Robert Byrd. Very level headed. Nice to see there is such thing as a dissenting view these days on Capitol Hill. http://prorev.com/byrdtalk.htm Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 db - Yes - unfortunately we have a history of helping only to get turned on later... a. - Unfortunately you've hit the nail on the head, and unless we're willing to make the families of suicide bombers pay a great price, there will always be someone willing to take their place. Can't stop the ones who want to shoot you on the side of the road, but maybe we can get the guys who would fly and airplane into a building, or do the ultimate suicide bombing and blow up a nuke... b - that one flew over my head c - So what will happen if britain goes to the euro? 1st d - here here. So am I...I'd much rather worry about where the newest powder is... 2nd c - I never said we had the copyright on freedom and helping die for it. 2nd d - In the end, it doesn't really matter if you or I are for/against the war on Iraq. The UN will decide that regardless of our opinion. I for one, do not dislike you for your opinion. You have to admit though that living in the serenity of Japan goes a long way to influencing your opinions. I'm thinking that if NK lobbed one of their missiles onto your favorite ski slope, you might be influenced otherwise. I have to confess I'm not enthralled with the axis of evil bit - where does that leave Iran down the road? I do think NK is more of a threat than Iraq is though...that's based on living in the ROK for a year, and taking another 30 trips over there between 95 and 98. A lot of things go on over there that are only recently being shown in world news... e - I'd like to think most folks from America are just like the ones you went boarding with...as for our leaders letting us down, that remains to be seen since for the moment, we haven't actually attacked Iraq...just threatened to do so... gotta run...enjoy... ray Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 I wonder if more countries have nuclear weapons and workable missiles, whether terrorism will become unfashionable. If NK actually does have nuclear missiles as claimed, that might be one reason why the US might be more interested in dealing with that situation 'diplomatically'. Which would be one reason why Saddam will be wanting them too. When everybody has nuclear missiles, the US's advantage in conventional weaponry won't do them much good anymore and they'll have to treat all these 'evil' countries more as equals. Then these 'evil' countries won't have quite as much recourse to old-style terrorism. It might just make the world situation more rather than less stable. Ray, I find your tone of injured US goodness in the face of the world's ingratitude very grating, and I think it's based on a very partial and self-serving view of US history. I don't know where you learned that history, but I'd say that in Britain at least, we are taught a far franker version of our own history. Link to post Share on other sites
SKI 15 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 This is one for the books - I'm with Ocean11 on this. On a side note the most enduring image I have of Mr George W Bush is that image of him sitting round a table of world leaders last year rocking back and forth like a child. Did you see that? That was a real eye opener. Link to post Share on other sites
mikazooki 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Quote: We have more than enough oil in the US to meet our needs. There is plenty to be used from South America as well, so this fight isn't about oil. Its about good and evil. just to clarify on oil... american oil production peaked in the 70's creating the price instability of this period. the US imports 55% (up from 43% in 1993) of its oil (in 2000 9% of US oil imports came from iraq!). 75 of convententional (easily extracted oil) comes for 360 giant oil fields. these represent less than 1% of all fields. oil from fields found more than 20 years ago supply 90% of todays oil. no giant fields have been discovered in the last 25 years. the middle east contains 60% of remaining conventional oil, including the largest and least depleted fields. most of venezuelas oil is unconventional and considerably more expensive to extract and refine. oil is the energy that runs the world economy. to say oil is an not issue in this was is to be very naive. Link to post Share on other sites
rach 1 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Quote: in 2000 9% of US oil imports came from iraq Hey, that's jolly naughty of them isn't it? Isn't it? Link to post Share on other sites
mikazooki 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Quote: While U.S. oil companies do not have official contracts to buy Iraqi oil under the Opec producer's oil-for-food programme with the UN, they can import quite legally through oil trading middlemen. i dont know how the current situation stands. Link to post Share on other sites
MistaSparkle 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 It's really a bad time to be an american. When people ask me where i'm from, I always say new york.... bottom line is.... Bush, Cheney and their buddies want oil + geopolitical power. The masses of sheep in america have their minds numbed by watching CNN, and are scared into supporting war with bogus scare tactics like the "terror alert system", and public notices telling people to duct tape their houses shut. After all... the people who run the news networks are the same people padding the bank accounts of the morons we have in office now. but... not all americans are oil-thirsty, gun toting, SUV driving idiots. There are lots and lots of smart, compassionate people, but unfortunately, those people are not heard enough. Link to post Share on other sites
mikazooki 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 i hear u sparky! but u r always more likely to meet a free thinking american outside of america. Link to post Share on other sites
rahij 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 I'm not envious of the US or American people at all. From what I see on the American news etc, Americans scare me more than anything. Link to post Share on other sites
mogski 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 I would just like to say I am proud that my govt. a long time told the US to stuff off! Although pressure seems to be causing some little riffs in this matter, but time, perserverance and losing the Americas Cup will all tell. Link to post Share on other sites
nekobi 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Americans scare me more than anything. all americans or the leaders of the country? why? Link to post Share on other sites
RayInJapan 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Why, I learned about US history in elementary, intermediate and high school and a little bit of college after that. Surely the US history books can't be wrong about US history - not with the ACLU and every person looking to make a name for themselves by finding fault with everything in print back in the US. Every country has their own view of history Ocean...what do you think they teach here in Japan about WWII and Japan's involvement? Perhaps I am being naive about the oil thing...after all - I'm not in the oil business. I only know what I've been told/taught/read. Does anyone on this forum actually work in the oil business? I'm not talking about the local Eneos. The beauty of the internet is that its so easy to print/obtain/write "facts". The tough part is knowing which "facts are true, and which ones are lies. Just for the record - though I "debate" some of the posts I read, that doesn't mean I find them or the author offensive. Debating is part of what this section of SJ is for right? Link to post Share on other sites
MistaSparkle 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 it's not really fair to say all americans. There are alot that scare me too, and it's their responsibility for being ignorant enough to elect the people they do. mikazooki - you're right... I could probably say that every american I've met living here have been free thinkers. I think the mindset like: "america is the center of the world, everyone wants to be like us, and anyone who hates us is just jealous" is way too common among people who don't spend some solid time outside the states. Link to post Share on other sites
mikazooki 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Quote: Does anyone on this forum actually work in the oil business? I'm not talking about the local Eneos. The beauty of the internet is that its so easy to print/obtain/write "facts". The tough part is knowing which "facts are true, and which ones are lies. i studied it for a course in environmental issues at university. most of the facts r from a paper to a transport symposium in australia, regarding the future and means of adaptation for the transport industry. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 They teach a load of bollocks about what they did in the war - I know that. That's why Japanese kids don't know why other countries' people are suspicious of them. Just like the poor generous Americans by the looks of it. But in the UK, we learn the details about our glorious Empire from textbooks, so we aren't too surprised when Indians drag their feet giving us a visa when we want to go there for our holidays. I don't suppose Japanese textbooks will be showing pictures of Showa canibalism, but our textbooks show our soldiers blowing Indian mutineers to bits at the mouths of cannon. (That's not to say that a hell of a lot doesn't get swept under the rug, but then a healthy segment of Brits suspect most of it even if they don't know the details) But Americans get their history from Hollywood so they may think that events like the My Lai massacre were perpetrated by the British Army on American soil against the Minutemen when they weren't. You need to look a little deeper than 'envy' to find the reason for the very widespread distaste for American foreign policy - envy isn't nearly as common a vice as you might imagine. Link to post Share on other sites
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