Glen Falting 0 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Ocean, unless you're suggesting that the use of force can never be justified, all we are disagreeing on are the circumstances in which it can be employed. Jared, the fall of an empire is generally a pretty messy event, not to mention the power vaccuum that it creates. Who would you prefer to be calling the shots, an ineffective UN perhaps, the PRC, the French, the Japanese? Link to post Share on other sites
jared 0 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Bing Bong, UN is a correct answer. While it may not be 100% its a whole lot better that what there is at the moment. If someone has to "call the shots" someone who isn't trying to make money for themselves might be a start. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 It appears that the UN is as ineffective as the powerful bully America is prepared to make it. America wants and needs for the UN to be gone. Link to post Share on other sites
Glen Falting 0 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Agreed, if the UN worked, it would be the best option. Unfortunately it doesn't seem that any member is willinging to allow such a body to over ride its own sovereinty even for the greater global good. All countries use whatever power they have for their own interests, look at Japan and its willingness to buy the votes of the smaller members of the International Whaling Commission (is that its name?) or the way the PRC has acted to ensure that Taiwan will eventually lose the substancial international contacts and recognition it once enjoyed and thereby undermining its ability to claim inderpendance. To expect countries not to use whatever resources they have at their disposal for their own self interest is pretty naive. The UN ideal is pretty good, but like the league of nations that preceded it, its members give it credence only so long as it suits their needs. America just looks bad because they wield so much power, but every other country would do the same. And sometimes, committees just don't work. Remember how effect the EU was when Yugoslavia broke up and again in Kosovo? Link to post Share on other sites
neversummer 0 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 db, the US have just bought the Puckapunyal military base in central victoria to be used by their troops. rumour has it that the Oz govt sold it for...$1...because it was under plague conditions from mice. Link to post Share on other sites
barok 0 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 yeah I agree Kambei, Europe did an admirable job with Milosovich - can`t even handle genocide in their own backyard. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 They bought pucka!!!!! They are welcome to have that hell hole. I have spent many a challenging night there navigating my little tank around in the dark without being allowed to use night vision gear or any light to read the map. Also accidentally minced a few kangaroos with my 60 cal. They were every where, out of control. You would be laying down live fire in an early morning battle run simulation and then along the way you would find the odd messy 'roo that got caught in the line of fire of the advancing company sized group of armored vehicles. Also got caught in a rather large grass fire started by a flare. Even once tipped by APC into a 10 foot deep dry creek bed at night time. I do not recommend being in the turret of an APC as it flips over and plunges vertically 10 feet into a creek bed. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I don't think you boys know what you're talking about with Milosovich and that whole situation. That was just one more case where the threat of military force without sufficient understanding of the positions of key players stimulated the killing. And one more case where the intransigence of the US lead inevitably to the imposition of a US 'military solution' (with the inevitable loss of civilian lives, pollution of the environment etc.) Of course, if you only look at censored news you wouldn't know about any of that... Link to post Share on other sites
barok 0 Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 With regards to Kosovo, Milosovich, etc. there definately was a problem - large numbers of civilians were being killed based on their ethnicity. Ocean 11, I`m not saying that what the USA did was neccessarily right. Based on what I know, I think that bombing the hell out of the country was the wrong way to solve the problem. What I am saying is that Europe did nothing for a long time. Doing nothing seems to be what Europe is best at. I`ll be the first to admit I don`t know enough about this issue, or other world events for that matter - my news is mostly mainstream - can anybody suggest good non-mainstream news sites that aren`t rife with reports based on unreliable sources, or no sources at all, or that aren`t rife with opinion - sick of the crackpots. Link to post Share on other sites
Glen Falting 0 Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 How about Al Jazeera? Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Have you looked at Al Jazeera? They're actually pretty good - far less biased in many ways than Western news media (where many of their journalists learnt their trade). BTW, in Europe they were not doing nothing about Yugoslavia. It was a difficult situation and they were using diplomacy which is a quiet, drawn-out, unspectacular activity (and therefore un-newsworthy to some). The diplomacy might not have been getting the desired results all the time, but it wasn't precipitating mass murder either. When the US finally got in on the diplomacy act, they copied - guess who? the smelly, snaggle-toothed Yurpeans. Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 If your average family is anything to go by, there's a good chance that the men in question knew where their father was. I don't suppose we'll find out now. "I see it in your eyes Take one look and die! The only thing you see You know it's gonna be The Ace of Spades! The Ace of Spades!" Link to post Share on other sites
sunrise 0 Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Quote: Originally posted by barok: my news is mostly mainstream - can anybody suggest good non-mainstream news sites that aren`t rife with reports based on unreliable sources, or no sources at all, or that aren`t rife with opinion - sick of the crackpots. non mainstream, but maybe not exactly what you're after: http://www.globalresearch.ca http://www.johnpilger.com for starters.... Link to post Share on other sites
neversummer 0 Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 the www.johnpilger.com site is really good for issues that are being mentioned. Kosovo, Afghan, Iraq are all mentioned. This guy has discredited so many arguements by the 'coalition of the willing' himself because he is western journalist whose built trust amongst people in those parts of the world. the people he gets to speak in his documentries and quotes in his books and website are highly qualified on topics he's interested it. former Gererals of the first Gulf War, UN weapons inspectors, renowned politicians etc..he gives a no nonsense view of the issues at hand..all cited so people know he's not full of S**t Link to post Share on other sites
sunrise 0 Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 He's a highly respected journalist. I saw an amazing documentary that he made on the Vietnam war called Frontline many years ago. Link to post Share on other sites
Weegeoff 0 Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 barok .Europe did an admirable job with Milosovich They got him to the international court and he will have to answer to the whole world for his crimes,Along with all his cronies The US has had to resort to showing the photos and videos of mutilated dead bodies to prove to the Iraquis that the Brothers were dead.That is not justice.Is it one law for Europeans and another for the rest of the world or one for born again Baptist Christians and another for Muslims Link to post Share on other sites
barok 0 Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Weegoff - Milosovich`s arrest and capture were made possible by the United States led invasion, messy as it was. If the US had not decided to invade, what would Europe have done ? My best guess says still sitting on their hands, trying to come up with a diplomatic solution that would never come. Diplomacy doesn`t seem to do such a good job when it comes to dictators bent on genocide. He was arrested by police in his own country where he was held, until being transferred to the UN War Crimes Tribunal. I am not sure what any of that has to do with European powers, other than Europe`s role in the UN, which is no more significant than any other group of countries` role. But hey, if you can let me know - please do. Link to post Share on other sites
sunrise 0 Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 This is an interesting site. It presents a totally different slant on what happened in Yugoslavia. I can't say if it's correct or not, though it seems to look credible and they back up their stories. I don't hold particular judgement on it, as I don't know what's true and what's not, but this site opened my eyes to the possibility that things aren't what they seem. Link to post Share on other sites
Stefan 0 Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 The War Crimes Tribunal that USA refuses to officially recognise? No can anyone give a good guess why? How come threads like this always end up with one guy or gal defending the US while the rest of this forum are on the attack. My take is that most US foreign policy under Bush is bent and he lacks moral fibre. Bring back Bill, he shagged his way to the top and had a great respect for foreign policy. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 barok, why don't you go and find out about Yugoslavia instead of spouting the official and wrong line repeatedly here? Try reading something by Misha Glenny. There's usually a lot more to these demonized dictators than meets the eye, and their motivations are usually well worth knowing about before you go taking pot shots at them. Link to post Share on other sites
Stefan 0 Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 ahhh 'cmon Slobodan ain't all that bad! Sure he was responsible for thousands of deaths of people who did nothing except be a different ethnicity or religion, but would that stop you from asking him round for a BBQ? On a more serious note.......looks like he's "up sh't creek without a lawyer" at the Hague where, in his genius or should I say arrogance, he's decided against representation. Link to post Share on other sites
Weegeoff 0 Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Barok You have been Watching your own news After a lot of talking I think the the brits went in first. I would also like to point out there was a 14 boy killed in the shoot out in Iraq Can somebody justify that Or are you going to call it friendy fire. Link to post Share on other sites
AET 0 Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Dumb question time. They're saying that they were a few hours off in trying to get Saddam yesterday or something. How do they know thaT? And if they know it, why didn't they do something quicker? Duh! Link to post Share on other sites
Glen Falting 0 Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 AET - how about, this for a time line - they are told saddam is at a house, they jump in their cars and race to the house, arrive at the house, jump out and shoot everybody except one person, they ask the sole survivor where saddam is, he tells them saddam left yesterday morning. Link to post Share on other sites
Glen Falting 0 Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Hey Weegeoff, if the kid was shooting at the soldiers (which he apparantly was and I appreciate we may only have one side of the story), then he was a combatant and deserved the consquences. Link to post Share on other sites
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