Shrine visits - illegal?

[lin 0]

Seen this? Interesting.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3606407.stm

[Ocean11 0]

This just fills me with hate for the dishonesty and slipperiness found in broad sectors of Japanese life. It also demonstrates nicely how there is not really such a thing as the rule of law in Japan.

[Yuki's Passion 1]

Yeah, we can also add in settai and amakudari in that list too... no wonder things here are among the most expensive in the world - stamps, domestic flights, and highways - but not tobacco

 

Its funny how the visits of P.M. to shrines has only caused contraversy as of late, maybe up until Hashimoto China and Korea didnt make an issue out of it, but NOW its a problem??? Wake ga wakaran

[Ocean11 0]

No, China and Korea have long made an issue of it. There was a great deal of rage when Nakasone went as PM. That just makes it all the more incredible that Koizumi tries to pretend that it's all a mystery to him, especially since the Nakasone visits established that a distinction can be made between visits in official and private capacities.

 

The real shame is that the UK and US don't get more involved and protest. Of course they won't though because of the 'positive' role Japan is playing in Iraq, among other reasons.

[damian 0]

>>no wonder things here are among the most expensive in the world - stamps, domestic flights, and highways <<

 

huh?

 

Shrine visits illegal, things are expensive...

 

I missed something.

[NoFakie 45]

I would say the US are part of the problem. They should have put more pressure on Japan during the post-war occupation to force Japanese society to recognize the crimes of the war. Instead, show trials and non-imperial scapegoats aside, it was a case of "don't rock the boat in case the communists get in". Most of the ruling class was purposefully left intact.

 

To a lesser extent, I think the pretty much the same thing happened in Germany. Many leading Nazis got off easily after the war. While Germany has come to terms with the war much better than Japan, they did pay a much bigger price for it, including having the country split in two.

 

Had Japan been partially occupied by China and Korea, I think things would have been much different.

[Yuki's Passion 1]

DB,

 

I was refering to O11 mentioning the "dishonesty and slipperiness found in Japanese society" and brought up settai and amakudari. Look it up. Those two concepts found in Japan are the reason why things here are so expensive as found in detail in Alex Kerr's book, "Dogs and Demons."

 

Nakasone was P.M. from the early to mid 80s right? Dont think thats long ago considering thats almost 40 years after the war finished and over 30 years since the San Fransico Peace Treaty. What happened to the years in between? Youre telling me nobody went to the Shrine then? Japanese facist like Ishihara et al. have long been going there.

[damian 0]

with you now, cheers.

[Yuki's Passion 1]

Guess my previous post was a little vague - (music) I think Im turing Japanese I think Im turing Japanese I really think so... (music)

[Ocean11 0]

What happened to the years in between?

 

Well, China had quite a few internal issues of its own to worry about, and Korea was totally a client state of the US until very recently. But also the top leaders and instigators of Japan's war were not enshrined there until 1978, and the biggest problem is the fact of the prime ministers visiting in their official capacities which was not tried on until 1985.

 

Hence the somewhat recent nature of the issue.

 

Visit the website at http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/ for some truly creepy reading.

[Yuki's Passion 1]

Shocking

[damian 0]

Indeed creepy.

 

I have to say though that I find any reference to dead people being a contemporary amongst the living to be creepy. Japan seems to take dead people very seriously.

 

Dead people are dead, that's it, gone, no more, nothing more. All we have are memories, hopefully they are good and make us smile.

 

I remember the acts and deeds of dead people, but in doing so I think of the time that they lived. This is all I can think of as that is the only meaningful chapter. The chapter after that (death) is a void. I remember a lot of friends who are now dead, but not via recognition of their ongoing 'soul' rather by recollection of their living character.

 

One thing is for sure, I am culturally 'wired' to not understand the necessity of religion and the manner in which it requires us to go beyond remembrance. It requires many cultures to actually adopt the concept of the dead souls amongst the living. This is also common in western religion and I prefer to be left out of it.

 

There are many other comments that can be made about Occean's link above. This one was just one that came to my mind.

[akibun 0]

What actually is shocking?

[Ocean11 0]

You really don't know?

[akibun 0]

I cant understand it all, I know about many controversial about it. But what inparticular is shocking about the writing there? I am very interested in topic.

[Ocean11 0]

The Japanese military and Hirohito destroyed Japan's prewar democracy and led it into a war that ruined the lives of millions of Japanese and millions of Asians. The only good result is that it ended Western colonialism, although Japan's intention was to replace that with Japanese colonialism. This is well established fact, and there are many Japanese who know it.

 

This war destroyed Japanese hopes for democracy for half a century, and there still isn't much hope.

 

However, the Yasukuni website denies all this completely and celebrates the war, ignores its evil and pointlessness, and promotes false history and destructive myths. It also promotes the idea that the dead are ennobled simply by dying which is a repulsive idea.

 

This would be bad enough in itself. But what really freaks me out about it is that the Prime Minister of Japan in his official capacity as the representative of the Japanese insists on patronizing the place. And there isn't a damn thing that any Japanese can do about it, immoral, illegal and unconstitutional as it clearly is.

[akibun 0]

I see, thank you.

[Ocean11 0]

akibun, what do you think about it? Have you seen the Japanese website?

[akibun 0]

Its difficult to say in Enlgihs, but I don't like it. I feel embarrassing.

[Davo 1]

Hate to say it but the PM does this and the Japanese people go along with it. Not standing up and telling him it's wrong IS agreeing with him. They could give a damn about past aggression in general. Japan will never be able to reconcile its past with China, Korea and other nations because the Japanese people, by and large, simply can't concieve that it was wrong and therefore react accordingly. Indeed most people probably know little about the facts because they're not taught accurately in school.

 

Can't ever have a conversation with my girl about it because she takes my criticism of a past miltary regime personally. In fact I try not to criticise Japan at all in front of her. Japanese tend to see criticism as Japan bashing. Hiroshima and Nagasaki along with the postwar occupation provided the Japanese

with an excuse to come out of their war of colonial aggression with a victim psyche. And they were indeed victims-duped into it by the military, which is why they should be furious with Koizumi.

 

Koizumi is giving tacit approval to the past wrongs of a nation that can only see the past, present and future from a blinkered point of view. I guess all countries are like that in a lot of ways-we're all guilty of it. NZ was as much a part of the colonial exploitation as other countries.

 

However no one is protesting much about this blatent support of miltarism. To the contrary, the figgen Nazis are out driving around in their black trucks saying it's all good and the only problem is that they lost a couple of islands. Meanwhile everyone keeps on shopping and wondering why the Chinese hate them so much. Oh well they're all bloody theives anyway.

 

One solution is to move the war criminals to their own resting spot. It'll never happen.

[slow 0]

It is Yasukuni-Jinja. It has special meaning to certain people. If it is national event, we will take it seriously but it's not. If Mr.Koizumi wants to visit there, he can do it. It's none of our business.

But the problem is Mr.Koizumi is Prime Minister now. That's the problem...

[Ocean11 0]

Imagine if the president of Germany paid annual visits to Nuremburg, or the prime minister of Britain went to National Front rallies - to pray for peace mind you.

[slow 0]

Yeah, I can understand how foreigners feel when Koizumi visits Yasukuni-jinja. He should know it, too.

[Siren 0]

But there must be Japaneses who think that he should continue to go.

 

He is a politician which by definition will do what is popular with the voters?

 

No?

[BagOfCrisps 24]

Spooky subject. Where is this place, central Tokyo?