1 4 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Wow, you sound like a real expert, Man_In_Japan.... what is it you do again, teach English? What on earth do you know about the ski industry in Japan 1? What on earth does it matter? (To quote Man in Japan) So your knowledge of the ski industry is irrelevant to this conversation then? Riiiiiiight.... Which way do you want it? You were the one that said it was irrelevant. Link to post Share on other sites
gerard 6 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Why so confrontational, 1? While the organic feel of a resort developed over time will be hard to achieve in Kiroro, it does have the considerable advantage of being owned by a single entity which will make it possible for them to move much faster. In addition, there is a considerable amount of developable land which is not subject to any tricky regulatory issues. No need for an "organic feel". An intrawest/Disney-style, seemless resort should do the trick. Not exactly my cup of tea but it will be interesting to see what they do... Link to post Share on other sites
muikabochi 208 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 In this region of Niigata: Nakazato, Muikamachi Ski Resort and Centleisure Maiko Snow Resort have all recently been bought by the same company. Kandatsu has changed hands a few times. (In fact, the foreign investors Pine Ridge Resorts ran away when their changes were not successful and were bought out by a local group. Here's hoping they do better). I believe Greenpia Tsunan has seen some changes as well with new management. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Year upon year, resorts have been closing across Japan, not just in Hokkaido. The only major development I can think of that was worthy of news in Hokkaido, is the Hokkaido Shinkansen, but that has been years in development. Heck, they have even said they would allow 20 years for the development of the line to Sapporo. This is just off the top of my head, it is not supposed to be any kind of definitive list. The Mt Kosha resorts Ryuoo Ski Park / Kawaba The changes in Hakuba and related 日本スキー場開発 J Mountains Group There have been plenty of things going on. You just don't know about them. Doesn't mean things are not happening. So you agree with what I wrote then 'Out of the 100's of resorts throughout the country you could probably count on one hand those that are investing more money into the resort.' Link to post Share on other sites
1 4 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 No, I don't agree at all. Unless you have an extremely abnormal hand. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Then please continue to name all many other resorts that are investing in infrastructure upgrades and improvements to facilities and accommodation. Link to post Share on other sites
Chriselle 158 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Wow, you sound like a real expert, Man_In_Japan.... what is it you do again, teach English? What on earth do you know about the ski industry in Japan 1? What on earth does it matter? (To quote Man in Japan) So in recent years the bulk of investment in ski resorts in Japan I'd say has come from foreign investors Well, I'd say you are wrong. There have been plenty of changes at Japanese ski resorts in recent years. You just don't know this because you (think you) know everything that there to know about Niseko, apparently think that applies to all of Japan and obviously know very little about anywhere outside of that area. All dressed up in carefully constucted and impressive sounding sentences. Really....? Where? I'd really love to know. I can't think of any in Hokkaido. And my regular spots in Nagano are barely staying maintained. Look....The Japanese aren't doing any developing....anywhere! About the only real construction I see these days are 100 yen shops and convenience stores. The economy is in the toilet and the disaster last year just seemed to be the sobering hit that switched off the flow of funds from consumers and big business alike. Just take a look around your areas....what growth do you see? Every year I go back to Canada to see huge projects underway.....I'm invested in a number of them in fact. Very impressive considering the times. My town of Ito is on one of the most beautiful stretches of coastline in Japan. The town is a rusty shithole. The hospitality industry is barely hanging on and there are empty shells of former business all up along the main road going down the coast. The same can be said for my wife's hometown in Rumoi Hokkaido as the hotel she owns is just scraping by. So ...1....please direct me to all the locally funded expansion projects underway....It doesn't even have to be at the ski-jo's. Oh and again..... How you get "race" out of all that I don't know...... Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 To be fair, I don't think you'll find many people who agree with you,1. I'm only basing my views on being here and boarding for the last 6 years and seeing with my own eyes and comparing to the resorts I've visited in Europe. A lot of the base areas look extremely tired and in need of a decent upgrade. This is the case, not just for ski resorts in Japan but pretty much every "resort" town that they have. An ageing area from a bygone era. Doesn't appear to be much investment by anyone Link to post Share on other sites
1 4 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Then please continue to name all many other resorts that are investing in infrastructure upgrades and improvements to facilities and accommodation. Do you have 12 fingers on one hand? It's a waste of time trying to say something that you don't agree with Go Native, as has been seen countless times on here before. You can take that as you 'winning' if you like. Link to post Share on other sites
muikabochi 208 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 As far as I know the list that 1 said incorporates over 12 resorts. I gave a list of 5 just locally here. No, they are not all investing huge amounts as much as Kiroro and Mt Granview are (how much do they need to invest before they can get on this sacred list?), but there does seems to a lot of movement with a fair few ski resorts and some companies seemingly willing to take them on and do things with them even in these difficult times. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 muika even the $27 million to buy Kiroro isn't really a lot of money. I personally know quite a few individuals who could have afforded that! Frankly I can't believe how cheap it is. It must be because operating profits for the resort are practically non-existent and a hell of a lot of work will need to be done on the place. Have you been to any of the great ski resorts of the world? Whitsler or Aspen or Chamonix or something similar? Have you seen what modern, successful resorts do these days to remain profitable? The lift infrastructure, facilities and services at most Japanese ski resorts are frankly an absolute joke. There may well be a certain antiquated charm to them but that's about the best you could say. Most Japanese resorts are just incredibly lucky they don't have to spend significant amounts of their revenue on snow making (like many resorts around the world). They'd all go broke within a season if they did. Link to post Share on other sites
Thundercat 60 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 There may have been some changes at some resorts... like name changes... but what kind of investment in infrustructure has there been? Honestly very little. Especially compared to what has been happening at Niseko and now Kiroro. They are talking about tens of millions of dollars. Nowhere else is coming even close to that. Link to post Share on other sites
Thundercat 60 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Also, Chris you are a racist. Link to post Share on other sites
muikabochi 208 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Hey I'm confused now. Is it a lot or not? Link to post Share on other sites
muikabochi 208 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 There may have been some changes at some resorts... like name changes... but what kind of investment in infrustructure has there been? Honestly very little. Especially compared to what has been happening at Niseko and now Kiroro. They are talking about tens of millions of dollars. Nowhere else is coming even close to that. Black Mountain. Do you know what the new owners of Maiko have planned? No? Neither do I. So surely it would be pretty presumptuous to label it as simply a name change. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 For Japan it's a lot. For just about anywhere else in the developed world it's not. Link to post Share on other sites
1 4 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Damn, it's as if people are taking one bit of information that helps illustrate the point they are pushing while conveniently ignoring the other bits of the story!! Link to post Share on other sites
Chriselle 158 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Also, Chris you are a racist. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Damn, it's as if people are taking one bit of information that helps illustrate the point they are pushing while conveniently ignoring the other bits of the story!! Well the other bits haven't been well explained have they? You've mentioned a few resorts but given no detail whatsoever regarding the investments they have made. What are we talking? A new paint job on the visitor centre? Or new lifts? Or what? Link to post Share on other sites
Thundercat 60 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 There may have been some changes at some resorts... like name changes... but what kind of investment in infrustructure has there been? Honestly very little. Especially compared to what has been happening at Niseko and now Kiroro. They are talking about tens of millions of dollars. Nowhere else is coming even close to that. Black Mountain. Do you know what the new owners of Maiko have planned? No? Neither do I. So surely it would be pretty presumptuous to label it as simply a name change. Yes it is somewhat presumptious and I guess in the case of Maiko only time will tell. (Kind of the point that some other posters were making...) The fact that there aren't press releases of future projects when the resorts change hands are pretty indicative that there aren't going to be significant changes. In my experience, the only significant changes I've seen at resorts are: name changes, closures and reduction in services. Link to post Share on other sites
muikabochi 208 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I'm absolutely sure there would have been a press release. It was in the Niigata newspapers and probably further afield as well. What makes you say with such conviction that there were no press releases? I'm not sure why you think you would have seen the press release anyway..... they're not going to post it in the Japan Times or anywhere in English, and unless you are in the industry or related people won't see things like that. Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Pow 52 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 $ 27 million for Kiroro is a steal. One strategy that hasn't been explored is a group of individuals / consortium buying a smaller ski resort and operating as a private club. If you consider that the buy in price for a ski-in, ski-out property is approx. $ 500,000 then getting 100 people to invest in a resort to the tune of $1 million that caters only to them and their guests and includes a property would leave more than enough money for operation, maintenance and upgrading. Link to post Share on other sites
Thundercat 60 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Pretty presumptuous of you to assume I don't read the Japanese newspaper, isn't it? I certainly don't read the Niigata newspapers though. Well, I probably wasn't clear in my post but my point wasn't that there were no press releases, it was that when there are press releases with no news of future plans you can assume it's because there aren't any. Anyway, I wasn't speaking of Maiko in my original post, I know nothing about that place! I still can't think of any places that have had any significant infrastructure investments over the years. Does anyone have any examples, other than places changing names? Link to post Share on other sites
muikabochi 208 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Yeah, right. Bored of this. Link to post Share on other sites
Chriselle 158 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I was up in Sun Peaks in Kamloops BC, Canada this summer and the development has just been insane. Actually, the entire city has just exploded.....and it's out in the freakin desert. I skied there years ago and the recent transformation to a world class resort is awe inspiring. Certainly, I would never compare that project to anything in Japan but as others have mentioned ....a coat of paint, and some new carpets is pretty much just going through the motions. Also, all the successfull resorts overseas seem to have a very active and supportive off season. I'm just venturing a guess but I don't think the resorts here are capitalizing on the off season potential. I could be wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
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