April 25 ANZAC Day

[Go Native 70]

Mantas very few SE Asian countries are signatories to the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees (and its 1967 Protocol). Sri Lanka and Afghanistan certainly aren't and nor are their neighbors. Although Sth Korea and Japan are signatories they almost never accept asylum claims. There's been some cases of Chinese people seeking asylum in Japan and being refused and then when returning to China either being locked up for life or executed. China does accept refugees but let's face it human rights abuses in China against minorities are already atrocious. If you were fleeing with your family from a conflict would China be your first choice?

Australia is a relatively wealthy country that has laws against discrimination and a reasonably fair process of assessing asylum claims. Again if you had to flee a country in the Asian region would you not do all you could to get your family to what you perceived to be a country that offered a reasonable chance at a decent life without persecution?

 

Again if you guys want to claim they are all economic migrants then please show the figures to support it. We have a rigorous system of processing claims and those found to be just economic migrants are returned to their country of origin.

 

This from news.com.au (I'm having trouble finding a better source)

 

Quote:

And plane people are much less likely than boat people to be genuine refugees, with only about 40-60 per cent granted protection visas, compared with 85-90 per cent of boat people who are found to be genuine refugees.

 

People arriving by plane also vastly outnumber boat people yet it is the boat people for some reason that get most of the media attention. Gee the Howard governments propaganda demonising these people have anything to do with that I wonder? And from the figure above it's pretty plain that the vast bulk of people arriving by boat are genuine refugees and not economic migrants. The propaganda and lies put out there are frankly ridiculous and you guys really should educate yourselves more. Or if nothing else how about putting yourself in the shoes of a genuine refugee. What wouldn't you do to protect your family and seek out the best opportunity for them?

 

Rob nearly all the boats are intercepted at sea. Currently though most are then taken to islands in the Indian ocean to be processed. I think this was probably done by the Howard government to help skew the statistics of how many boat people arrive in Aus. It would be much cheaper to just escort the people to the mainland and process their claims there.

[Mantas 3]

Originally Posted By: Go Native

Mantas very few SE Asian countries are signatories to the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees (and its 1967 Protocol). Sri Lanka and Afghanistan certainly aren't and nor are their neighbors. Although Sth Korea and Japan are signatories they almost never accept asylum claims.

Australia is a relatively wealthy country that has laws against discrimination and a reasonably fair process of assessing asylum claims. Again if you had to flee a country in the Asian region would you not do all you could to get your family to what you perceived to be a country that offered a reasonable chance at a decent life without persecution?

Again if you guys want to claim they are all economic migrants then please show the figures to support it. We have a rigorous system of processing claims and those found to be just economic migrants are returned to their country of origin.

So after repeatedly branding the Australian population racist, zenophobic and ignorant. Your now admitting that out of the 20-30 nations in our region, including the ones much larger and wealthier than ours, that we actually have a very good record for the treatment 'asylum seekers'.?

[Go Native 70]

So Aus is better than a lot of other countries. Does that make it immune from criticism? Absolutely perfect country is it, nothing at all could possibly be improved? Such a pointless argument. And I said we have a reasonably fair process of assessing asylum claims not that we have a very good record for treatment of asylum seekers. There's a difference.

 

So have you ever put yourself in the shoes of a refugee? Care to comment on what you would do to protect and safeguard your family if you were forced to flee your country?

 

 

[Mantas 3]

Put a hold on the criticism for 5 minutes, what's the GN solution then? Come one come all? Asylum seeker is such a broad term.

[Go Native 70]

It's never been come one, come all and it never will be. The propaganda and fear mongering about opening the floodgates is just ridiculous. Australia has never been and never will be a huge destination for refugees. There have been increases recently largely due to conflicts in our region.

 

It's about offering a humane, compassionate and fair system that allows claims for asylum to be dealt with efficiently and effectively. Aus is by no means the worst in the world but I think it could be improved. Things like mandatory detention for instance I do not believe is always necessary for all cases, especially for children. Making boat people out to be some sort of villains should also be stopped. Applying for asylum as a refugee is a perfectly lawful act and one we are obliged to deal with as a signatory to UN conventions. The method of arrival should have no bearing on how we assess the validity of a claim for refugee status and the convention is clear it shouldn't.

Under Howard I saw systematic government propaganda attempting to demonise and vilify those arriving by boat. We see on this forum just how successful they were. The less we thought of these people the easier it was for Howard to put in place methods of processing their claims which became increasingly inhumane without causing an uproar from the majority of Australians. He played the terrorism card as well to increase our fears to justify his actions which many believed contravened the conventions we were signatory to.

All figures I have ever seen show that the vast majority of those arriving by boat are found to have genuine claims for refugee status. It generally is only the people in the most extreme circumstances that resort to using people smugglers to get to Aus. These are people who should genuinely deserve our compassion are they not? Try and see beyond the propaganda vilifying these people show some compassion for their plight. Most have horrendous stories of persecution but of course we rarely get to hear them do we? It's not good to humanise these people too much is it if you want to treat them badly? The general populace may start turning against your policies.

I am not suggesting just letting people rock up and enter the country no questions asked. I believe in a system where claims for refugee status need to be vigorously verified and people like economic migrants and terrorists are found out and imprisoned or returned to their country of origin. I don't though see the need or reason we need to do this at great cost at offshore detention centres. And I don't see the need to particularly single out boat people as it appears far more arrive by plane whose refugee status is rejected. Yet we never hear about the plane people do we?

 

 

[Mantas 3]

In 2006 The Tamils carried out this sickening attack.

 

The Kebithigollewa massacre happened when a state owned bus was struck by two Claymore directional mines. 60 Sinhalese men, women and infants were killed as a result of this attack.

 

For all we know the master minds of this attack could well be on the next boat or plane. What are we meant to do, give them the keys to city? Maybe they are genuine asylum seeks. Whos knows? This is not a product of fear and propaganda from the Howard era. It's out of a genuine concern for a sense of justice for their victims. Who are these people , why are they fleeing, What have they done? Are they genuine? Of course they need to be processed.

 

I think people smugglers play a greater role than you think, I've seen many a reputable report on this very subject. I also think your niave to dismiss the flood gate theory so quickly.

If we process them here, what does that do for the slimy people smuggling operators working the ports of Jakarta and Penang ect. He has now successfully expatriated a boat load of paying clients to the Australian mainland. It makes little difference to him that they are in detention centers. he now has a glowing resume to present to the next batch of potential clients.

Business is booming. with all this cash he can get a bigger boat. The Indonesian authorities are all for it, one less problem for them and most likely getting a little backhander out of it as well. This is the real problem.

 

I'm not without compassion for these people, and yes we maybe we can do better. I don't have all the answers either. It's a complex problem, trying to keep everyone happy. Efficient and effective processing is near impossible when dealing with people of little know back ground, all the trying to adhere to the proper processes involved.

But come on, give us some credit, we are handling things a lot better than the 20-30 of our arsehole neighboring nations.

 

[Go Native 70]

Why is it do you think that the smallest segment by far of those attempting to gain access to Australia, the people arriving by boats, barely a few thousand each year seem to get by far the largest amount of media and political attention? This tiny group of people, the vast bulk of whom end up being granted refugee status because they are found to be genuine refugees, for some reason seem to play such an incredibly high profile role in Aus political debate and media coverage. Why do you think that is Mantas?

Personally I believe it's because of politics. In the whole scheme of things it's actually pretty much a non issue if you think about it economically or socially for Australia. This tiny group of desperate people don't have any effect on the daily lives of your everyday Aussie one little bit but just about every Aussie will have strong opinions on it one way or the other. This is the power of politics and media. It's a big issue not because it really affects anything but because it's a great political issue to use because it's rooted in fear which is one of the most potent emotions politicians can use to get votes.

 

What concerns me is whilst the politicians and media play their games of fear mongering and playing to the racist and far right wing elements in Aus society we end up playing around with the lives of people who on the most part have already endured circumstances the likes of which you and me could barely imagine. And frankly it sickens me. As I alluded to earlier with my scenario about waves of British refugees I believe that if these people were white and came from an english speaking country or a country we had strong economic ties with then we wouldn't be seeing them held in detention for years whilst there claims get processed. I believe we would be seeing Aussies coming together and raising money to assist them. It is this blatant difference in treatment based on race that also sickens me.

 

And I don't see this is an issue about trying to keep everyone happy. It's a simple issue of basic human rights and compassion. Australia is a very wealthy country that I believe can do better in offering assistance to those in need. Unfortunately after so many years of conservative rule I believe Australia became a significantly more selfish country that lost a lot of it's compassion towards others. A much meaner and self centered people.

You may not agree but that's how I felt when I was there and I have seen little from afar to make me believe that has changed much. And if we allow ourselves to become that much more fearful, less tolerant and compassionate to our fellow humans are we not just letting the terrorists win anyway?

I know there's a lot worse countries out there but you must forgive me if I expect such high standards from the country I spent most of my life in.

[jared 0]

I’m not referring to anyone here specifically but some of the comments reminded me of someone I lothe and prompted me to start ranting….

 

Anti-refugee types make me sick to my stomach. They are worse than the people traffickers derided earlier. People traffickers may profit from desperate refugees but at least by their offering of a service they give the refugees a chance. That’s more than the “refugees are using up all the resources†types have to offer. They just want the refugees to go and die somewhere else just so they don’t have to see someone who looks different in the street, or worse, have a miniscule fraction of their tax dollar go to supporting a new refugee before they can find their feet in a new country and start paying tax themselves.

“But the unskilled migrants will ruin our economy bla bla bla…†Only the most determined, resourceful, relentless individuals who took great personal risks and got lucky make it to a developed country. Do you really think that they are going to just sit at the bottom of the heap in their new country? They may not come with an education but they do come with a unrelenting drive that the majority of people lack. We are lucky to have them!

Talk to a former refugee, they will tell you about the family members who didn’t make it. Those that were killed, those that died along the way and those that just disappeared. They will tell you how far they walked through the mountains without food, drinking out of mud puddles, hiding in ditches at the side of the road from soldiers that would kill the entire family if they found you, being very thankful that you have an exceptionally quiet baby. They will tell you about finally getting to the destination and being forced to return, about making the entire journey again and finally making it through. Doing whatever has to be done to survive.

Sometimes I wish my mother-in-law wasn’t such a hard-ass but I guess if she wasn’t she wouldn’t have made it to NZ by herself with 5 kids in tow. (sometimes I also wish my wife was still quiet)

[mitchpee 10]

Captain S,

 

I couldn't agree more with the refugees statement. Most, if not all, have some sort of touching story and want to provide themselves for a better future. A good friend of mine was from Sudan and is one of the most driven students I have ever seen. Every time we would come back from partying he would be in his dorm studying. Very smart kid and I'm glad he and others like him got some sort of opportunity.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Whilst I very much agree with you Capt Stag and Mitch, the manner in which these refugee's are settled needs to be looked into.

 

There are a few area's around here where settlement has been on mass, and alongside other immigrant mass settlements and there has been SO much trouble! The "nasty, violent, people getting stabbed and shot" kind of trouble.

 

When these problems are highlighted it taints all even though the problems come from just a few. I don't have answers, or reasons why ... but I think if our handling of refugee's was better, the trouble would be less.

[RobBright 35]

Originally Posted By: Captain Stag

People traffickers may profit from desperate refugees but at least by their offering of a service they give the refugees a chance. That’s more than the “refugees are using up all the resources†types have to offer. They just want the refugees to go and die somewhere else just so they don’t have to see someone who looks different in the street, or worse, have a miniscule fraction of their tax dollar go to supporting a new refugee before they can find their feet in a new country and start paying tax themselves.
“But the unskilled migrants will ruin our economy bla bla bla…†Only the most determined, resourceful, relentless individuals who took great personal risks and got lucky make it to a developed country. Do you really think that they are going to just sit at the bottom of the heap in their new country? They may not come with an education but they do come with a unrelenting drive that the majority of people lack.

Whilst I agree with your point CS, you seem to be mixing up refugees and migrants in your point.

I doubt most people here would disagree with refugees escaping wars, genocides, ethnic cleansing etc, but migrants are a different point entirely.

Coming from an area of the UK, where immigrants of Eastern Europe seem to congregate, it has had an adverse effect on the health system in that area. The local authority now has to provide translators for the immigrants, benefits for them, even though they might not be paying National Insurance or taxes, schools have to pay for English Language teachers to teach the kids English to a suitable level, council houses that could have been given out to the local benefit-scammers, now are shared and more competitive.

And in the case of the UK, the unskilled labourers, who receive wages under the table, thus cutting out more taxes and NI payments, can up and leave, which a fair proportion did when the recession kicked in, thus taking the money out of the system.

I accept that this is not the majority of the immigrants doing this, but the knock on effect of uncontrolled immigration has negative results.

[Go Native 70]

Rob the numbers arriving in Australia are nothing compared to the wave of humanity that European countries have to deal with. In Aus the numbers seeking asylum each year only number something like a little over 10,000. In Europe you are talking about 100's of thousands. And Australia definitely does not have uncontrolled immigration, being a long way from just about anywhere with no common border with any other country does not make Aus the easiest destination for refugees to get to.

[RobBright 35]

Originally Posted By: Go Native

Rob the numbers arriving in Australia are nothing compared to the wave of humanity that European countries have to deal with. In Aus the numbers seeking asylum each year only number something like a little over 10,000. In Europe you are talking about 100's of thousands. And Australia definitely does not have uncontrolled immigration, being a long way from just about anywhere with no common border with any other country does not make Aus the easiest destination for refugees to get to.

I'm not comparing the UK to Oz at all, just stating a point about immigration and the effects it may have.

[Go Native 70]

Also just about everyone in Aus are boat people or descended from them. It's a very young country where a large portion of the population is from successive waves of immigration throughout its' short history (short as a western nation at any rate).

Certainly very different to that of a nation with a long history like the UK.

[Mantas 3]

Originally Posted By: Go Native

Why is it do you think that the smallest segment by far of those attempting to gain access to Australia, the people arriving by boats, barely a few thousand each year seem to get by far the largest amount of media and political attention? This tiny group of people, the vast bulk of whom end up being granted refugee status because they are found to be genuine refugees, for some reason seem to play such an incredibly high profile role in Aus political debate and media coverage. Why do you think that is Mantas?

That's simply not true GN. Sure, during the Howard/ Tampa issue it was, when we were receiving 2 boat loads a week and increasing, but now it's rearly gets a mention in main stream media. I guess you could also say it makes for more dramatic TV than someone strolling down the arrivals lounge at Sydney air port. Plane people land directly into the clutches of the authorities, they are less of a concern as more than half of them are refused entry and deported. This is where I think you are a little out of touch. The fact that you had never heard about the guy that blew up the boat containing 50 odd people and killing 5 of his fellow passengers is evidence of that. There is however a much broader debate going on about population control at the moment and immigration in general, legal and illegal. So far race hasn't come into it. The talk is all about numbers and how best to manage them. No doubt it will be an election issue again as it will in many countries in coming years, particularly the EU. This was the gist of my earlier post and I'll concede it was poorly put and hastily formed.

It's a bit of a myth that Australia has endless bountiful plains to share. We have dusty salt crusted crap in most places these days and it's only going to get worse. There are towns all over Australia on permanent tight water restrictions and have been for years. Planning for future population growth is difficult and as you could guess, most Australians don't want more people here, whether they are from Iraq or Ireland. Big business wants them though, no surprises there.
I don't want too many more here either for purely selfish reasons. I enjoy living the fantastic lifestyle here in regional Australia for very similar reasons that you enjoy living in regional Hokkaido and the idea of more houses, cars shops, roads and less pristine beaches, rivers and national parks is not very appealing.

Refugees/asylum seekers/illegal immigrants are a global problem. The truth is no one WANTS to take them in, very few countries do. I believe Australia is shouldering it's share of the problem, proportional to it's population. If counties like Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong and particularly Japan took in the same proportionate number to their population then the problem would be far less. So GN all this free time you have for this forum would be better spent lobbying for change in Japan and getting that disgustingly low number of 1000 intakes a year up to a respectable humane level.

[Mantas 3]

Originally Posted By: Captain Stag

Do you really think that they are going to just sit at the bottom of the heap in their new country? They may not come with an education but they do come with a unrelenting drive that the majority of people lack. We are lucky to have them!

I agree. I remember as a kid watching images on a black and white TV in the early 70's of emaciated walking skeletons being helped off boats in Darwin Harbour. Fleeing the Khmer Rouge and The north Vietnamese, often leaving their home port in a rickety old boat with nothing but the cloths on their back. Thirty years on these people have made a great life for themselves in Australia and making a great contribution as well. These stoic people gained great respect from broader Australia. ( We all love a little battler makes good story) Personally I'd have 10 of them for every blond haired blue eyed Aussie bludger.
These people are what most Australians of that era identify as a 'refugee.'

Here in lies the problem with trying to sell your 'Refugee' credentials to an Australian public in 2010
Some Asylum seekers often make their way to the International airport of their home country, clear immigration and customs then board an expensive commercial flight to S.E. Asia (or directly to Australia). Perhaps talking in an in flight movie and making a choice between beef of chicken. On arrival in their chosen port in S.E. Asia, they then spend weeks and months trying to negotiate a passage to Australia with a people smuggling professional. Usually paying between $4000-$6000 forth trip.
It's more about perception than reality I guess. ( i really don't need someone to post the 1951 UN definition)

BTW can some one tell me just how do the people doing the Asylum seekers claims of persecution go substantiating the claims? I can't even imagine the logistics involved. Trying to gain information from a war torn third world country from people who are going to be very reluctant to help. Even if they are willing to help, imagine the bureaucracy involved, at both ends. No wonder it takes so long