April 25 ANZAC Day

[Go Native 70]

Originally Posted By: Tubby Beaver

Isn't ANZAC day about the crazy defeat at Gallipolli in WW1?

Yep that's it. Aussies have always liked to support the underdog!

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Followed this debate with great interest, but refrained from comment as yet.

 

I believe the raising of the question of rampant blind patriotism is relevant - because if we do not question our motives we could indeed end up right back in 1939, but on the other side of the battle. Questioning our motives is a good thing.

 

However I disagree with the conclusions drawn from that questioning by GN.

 

I do agree that rampant nationalism is appearing (and has probably been around for decades) in certain groups in our community - let's refer to the Cronulla incident as an ugly example of such. But I do not believe this is a reflection of the the beliefs and views of the majority of Australian's.

 

I believe that the current young people have been exposed to a more open and educated discussion about war and what war meant to individuals who lived through it, and to the nation that lived through it - and that this has enabled them to have a real and evident gratitude.

 

My grandparents were all involved in service in WW2 in one way or another. The only one remaining alive, my Nan, was a wren in London who was whisked off her feet by an Aussie airman and came to dusty outback WA as a war bride. As I grew up, I did not hear many stories from Nan's war days - she would occasionally tell us about the fear of Londoners when the blitz was on, tell tales of driving the big articulated trucks without synchro gears. My Mum would listen with interest as she heard next to NO stories from her as she grew up! Well, now that she has great grandchildren - they are hearing much much more than I ever did.

 

In days gone by people didn't talk about what happened to them, what they saw - they just got on with it. I never met my grandfather, he was effected by the war and violent, and my Nan was one of the rare few who raised her children on her own in the 1950's/60's. But it wasn't until I was married with my own children and he passed away, that I was told that his problem were fallout from the war. Until then all I knew was he was a 'horrible man who hit my Nan'.

 

The point I am trying to make is that those who fought, those who lived through and experienced war did not talk about it much when they came back - at least not out in the open - maybe only within the confines of the RSL club. One world war, backed up by another, and then there was Vietnam, and the peace and love generation who waged a hate campaign on the men and women who served their country in that war. No wonder public display's of reverence and appreciation declined under that societal mood.

 

However stories have been told, people have actively sought stories and they have been made into movies and documentaries that examine not only the actual facts and figures of campaigns, but also the personal experiences of those campaigns, the personal experiences of those left at home, waiting, praying, and providing support for their serving son's and daughters. That has given grandma and grandpa permission to talk and share their stories.

 

No wonder our children are experiencing a surge in gratitude!

 

I was unable to relate to the dates and figures in my History books, but I damn well shed tears when I walked through the icey paths of Dachau and listened to the personal stories of people who lived and died there.

 

Similarly, when I read that many pilots died flying missions over Europe it meant little, but I wept with my Nan when she recalled sitting in the air force base waiting for the men to come home to the tea and sandwiches she and the other girls had prepared and hearing the planes coming, and hearing the motors cut out as they ran out of fuel, and then hearing the small planes crash into the White Cliffs of Dover, and the fear that it was your beau or brother that might have been in the cockpit.

 

As human beings we related in a personal way. Facts and figures go some way to tell a story, but the reason that so many people get out of bed early for dawn services, and make long trips to Kokoda or Gallipoli, is because they have made an emotional connection.

[Go Native 70]

Interesting points MB and I don't disagree at all, although I still maintain that increased patriotism is playing a role. I mean when you look at the 2005 incident at ANZAC cove for instance where they had the screening of a rock concert commemoration and the whole site ended up being strewn with rubbish and there were reports of pretty disgraceful drunken behavior. This doesn't suggest to me that all those attending are there because of some great surge in gratitude. To me it suggests they are simply there to say they have been, it's like a badge of honor to prove how Australian you are.

Many people of course see nothing wrong with patriotism and believe it should be encouraged. I'm not one of those people though and before I left Aus the country had changed enormously during the reign of Howard and patriotism was just one of many great ills I believed he inflicted on the country.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

There will always be dickheads GN.

But taring everyone with the brush deserved by a small vocal poorly behaved percentage does little to improve the situation. It may well do the opposite.

 

And just to clarify, ANZAC day was begun out of the overwhelming need for the community to remember the terrible slaughter of human life at Gallipoli, rather than celebrate a failed battle. It has become the day for a nation to remember the men and women who serve in all military capacities, and those who lived through war, those who gave or were prepared to give their lives to defend their homes and way of life. Whether battles were on their shores or not, made little difference, because if they weren't at that stage, without making that stand they would be soon. It is not a day to glorify war, but to remember the fallen and be thankful for the efforts of those who returned, recognizing the sacrifices they also made.

 

Incidents like what you mention at ANZAC cove are reviled by the majority at home. Dickheads. They deserve a good slap!

[Go Native 70]

I think Gallipoli holds a special place in our history because it was one of the first major battles where Aussie soldiers fought as Aussies rather than just soldiers of the British empire. Without doubt our bravery shown in the battle helped define us as a nation.

[Mantas 3]

Originally Posted By: Go Native

I think Gallipoli holds a special place in our history because it was one of the first major battles where Aussie soldiers fought as Aussies rather than just soldiers of the British empire. Without doubt our bravery shown in the battle helped define us as a nation.

For a guy that consistently tells us that they no longer care about Australia, dislike it's people and it's values, you show an overt interest in what goes on down here. More than most on this forum

[js 0]

Originally Posted By: Jynxx

I don't give a toss as to your assessment of my knowledge about ww2. as much as I don't care about the flag one fights under. Clearly you mentality is an example to what patriotic sentiments do to a country downunder that struggled to have its own identity.
I have been born to parents who directly experienced ww2, witnessed the civilian massacre by US bombers in Tokyo and Hiroshima and countless stories told by that generation.
Like I told you guys in my example in regards to my friend, we at least know better never to repeat it again. This is what we will not forget.

I am in agreement with GN on this. There is remembrance day. Call it Anzac day or whatever, its military day.
My take on this is that Australia suffered a cultural and social inferior complex to the so called developed West.
In the late '70s, while on 16% bank interest, a country for kids and old people dependent on Japan for 60% of the economy. So many times I heard that "We have no tradition or heritage since it's only 200 yo" when any heritage was being developed as shops for tourism. How bid deal it was to win the America's cup. Suddenly there is a national anthem to replace "I feel like a (brand name of beer) or two"
It's just flag waving. When I went to the States after 9/11 and saw so many flags, even on cars, some Americans recognised this and were concerned about it, too.
Patriotism is one of the root causes to turn the axis of evil,
if you like to use the term coined by Bush.

Well JX, before sprouting untruths, get your facts straight.

And if you didn't realise, world politics is like playground politics - 'you're either for us, or against us'. In war time you don't get asked to stand under a flag, it's forced upon people - usually with a rifle muzzle pointed at ones head or bricks through windows. Lucky are we to live in relatively stable countries and have the luxury of speaking our minds - not so for those in Nazi Germany, Tojo's Japan, Mugabes Zimbabwe ...

I'm not patriotic (unless of course it concerns the Wallabies playing the All Blacks or the Poms in Cricket).

You're not Robinson Crusoe in the parents regards, similarly, many of us on this site have parents of the same vintage and similar experiences. I don't know what relevance mentioning the Atomic blasts have - yeah, war is heck. To balance that, ask the POW's of the Japs if they were treated with any humanity, the 5 million or so Chinese who were exterminated, or the simple fact that a couple of countries greed and ambitions caused millions to die unnecessarily.

I disagree that 'we at least know better never to repeat it again' - it simply isn't human nature.

America's Cup? That was just Australian sporting competitiveness coming through - besides the fact that it is the oldest active trophy in international sport and had the longest winning streak in the history of sport. (Something to celebrate winning I reckon).

Cultural inferiority - to some degree perhaps, but again I point you to history, we're a nation made up of people from other nations. We simply celebrate being Australians, which means diversity. Unlike like some other nations who boast superiority 'cause they've got the bomb, or their (inbred) genes are supposedly superior, etc, etc.

I agree blind patriotism, AKA Dubya, is evil. Though similarly, being the direct opposite is also problematic.

The sentiment was probably best stated by the Turk Commander and later President Ataturk in a speech to the mothers of the ANZACS:

'Those heroes that shed their blood And lost their lives...
You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country.
Therefore, rest in peace.
There is no difference between the Johnnies
And the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side,
Here in this country of ours.
You, the mothers, who sent their sons from far away countries...
Wipe away your tears.
Your sons are now lying in our bosom
And are in peace.
After having lost their lives on this land, they have
Become our sons as well.'

Pretty honourable considering they lost about 255,000 men in that battle.

ANZAC Day/Rememberance Day helps us not to forget many good things (love, mateship, peace, forgiveness), it pays tribute to those who delivered us from likely oppression, remembers the comradship that existed between allied nations in facing common foes, and aids the healing process - ask a Vietnam vet about that.

[Go Native 70]

Originally Posted By: Mantas

Originally Posted By: Go Native

I think Gallipoli holds a special place in our history because it was one of the first major battles where Aussie soldiers fought as Aussies rather than just soldiers of the British empire. Without doubt our bravery shown in the battle helped define us as a nation.

For a guy that consistently tells us that they no longer care about Australia, dislike it's people and it's values, you show an overt interest in what goes on down here. More than most on this forum

Unlike most people I've always taken an active interest in politics, whether it be Australia's, Japan's or just about anywhere. I've been criticised on these forums for my criticism of Japan about as much as for my criticisms of Aus.

[Mantas 3]

Its the 'we', 'us' and 'our' that amuses me. You remind me of Spud (who was eventually banned from the forum). He liked to attach himself to all things honourable about being an Australian and disown us at all other times.

 

I love Australia warts and all and I don't shy away from our racial intolerance problems. Perhaps it is party driven by patriotism, who knows.

 

Make no mistake, Australia is still in it's formative years, we are the youngest large democratic country in the world.

We have an immigration rate twice that of the global average. It's the easiest developed country in the world for a foreigner to come, get residency, citizenship and then buy a house. If we try to pick and choose which type of immigrant we want, all hell breaks loose.

We have a housing shortage. A whole generation are practically resigned to being perpetual tenants with no assets to hand on to thier kids. Cashed up foriegners are helping to drive prices out of reach of young Austalians Here

We have over 45000 llegal immigrants each year and they just keep coming.

We have thousands of illegel immigrants in brand new off shore detention centres that gen Y are paying for (as well as trying to pay for their house).

We have some people that want to be a republic and some that want to remain with the monarchy.

Hell, even the flag debate has re-surfaced again.

 

Try managing all these problems and keeping everyone happy. It's little wonder nationalism is rearing it's ugly head in this environment.

 

 

[Jynxx 4]

Originally Posted By: SubZero

Well JX, before sprouting untruths, get your facts straight.

Are you flaming me? You haven't stated any facts at all as far as I'm concerned. You say something. no big deal.

[Go Native 70]

Just a couple of things there Mantas. If you are talking about illegal immigrants being those who are seeking asylum or refugee status it appears you have added an extra zero. In 2008 333,000 people sought refugee status in Europe, 50,000 in the United States, 35,000 in Canada and 4,750 in Australia. In global terms the numbers seeking asylum in Australia are very small. Although the numbers are very small the issue generates huge amounts of antagonism and debate in Australia. Much of it due I believe to the propaganda by the Howard governmnet which made those seeking asylum to be villains. Who can forget his disgusting children overboard lies? To suggest that the cost of processing asylum claims is affecting gen Y is frankly totally offensive and typical of the racist, selfish attitudes that I so detested in Australia. Australia is a rich country that can easily afford to meet it's international obligations that it's signatory to.

 

The housing shortage in Australia is a huge issue and the lack of supply is the main issue, not international investors. The international investors on the whole are buying into mid to upper level real estate in suburbs that would normally be well beyond your first home buyer. So again to suggest that your precious gen Y'ers are missing out because of international investors is truly complete rubbish and offensive. One of the main problems I believe in Aus is that your gen Y'ers want it all now. They want a big house in a good suburb, they want their huge plasma TV's, a couple of cars and they want it all now. Most of us here I'm sure didn't start living in the suburb we really wanted to or had a big house or nice car right from day one. We worked hard over many years to get those things (if we ever wanted them). Australia should be building cheaper, denser housing for the first home buyers to alleviate the lack of supply. This, not restricting international invesment will resolve the housing issues in Aus.

 

Much of what you have said above sounds just like one liners put out there by shock jocks intent on causing controversey and appealing to the brain dead ultra conservative, racist and xenophobic Aussie swill. I thought you'd be more intelligent and compassionate than that...

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Chiming in on the housing crisis - yes GN you are quite correct - but the issues of housing do go a bit deeper.

 

**Land is released for housing by Government, and there is a lot of red tape to break through along the way - the tracts of land identified for new housing developments have been delayed and stalled in a paper shuffle on peoples desks - and could well have been built on 10 years ago if there was efficiency. Although I prefer increasing density to expanding out - this is one of the factors.

 

**Low Income Housing: Government housing (called State Housing in the old days - HomesWest over here nowadays - no clue in the East) used to be pretty strictly controlled and in plentiful supply. If a low income earner was single they were offered a one bedroom or bedsit flat - if they were young it was likely on the top floor, if elderly possible on the bottom floor. If you were a single Mum with two kids, you would get a 2 bedroom house - kids shared. I am close friends with a woman who grew up in a 3 bedroom house - Mum, Dad and 7 kids. There were 3 boys sharing a room and 4 girls sharing a room, bunk beds and single chest of drawers was the only furnishings. If family circumstances and number changed - so did your address - to something more appropriate. If you earnt too much, out you went - to the private rental market, of which there were plenty available because it was an income stream for people, and made good financial sense to own a rental or two.

 

Now if your income increases you simply pay more for your state house. Now if you choose to stay in a big house as a single person, they leave you there. My Father in Law is a single man in a 3 bedroom house on a 1/4 acre block within 10 minutes of Fremantle - they could bulldoze his home and build THREE three bedroom units on it and accommodate 3 families, but because he chooses to stay there it accommodates only one person.

 

**Single occupant dwellings on the rise: Census has shown us that single occupant dwellings are higher now than ever before - but they are no longer the small one bedroom/bedsit size, and often not even a 2 bedroom duplex like my elderly Nan inhabits. No....quite often these are the 3 and 4 bedroom family home! Family move out, one partner dies and you have one person still living in a home built for a family - ALL OVER AUSTRALIA. More new small size homes are starting to hit the market just now as this niche has been recognized, but it is still a factor having a lot of impact.

 

** Re-purposed buildings:

As costs have gone up in the inner suburbs, so has the cost of renting and using warehouse space in those inner suburbs - many businesses have moved to outer/cheaper suburbs leaving vacant warehouses and commercial buildings. Many of those are beginning to be repurposed for housing ---with some FUNKY alterations hitting the market at the moment! But not enough as yet. These are the perfect opportunity for increasing density in the suburbs.

 

** Less rental properties:

Number of reasons. The housing demand drove up prices, which triggered many rental investors to sell, as the price was right and the hassle of rental to much. The profits from rentals have decreased as the tax breaks/benefits one used to enjoy are reduced, and the risk from poor tenants increased (not sure why that is, but WOW! There has been some horror stories). At least the lack of rental properties is keeping the next generation at home longer stalling the next batch of single occupant dwellings from surging!!

 

It is a hugely complex issue.

But for Mantas to blame the immigrant is unfair. There is some concern over homes bought internationally for 'investment' purposes in Australia and left sitting vacant in the midst of a housing crisis, but incentive to rent those properties is all that would be required to see them hit the market. Carrots, not punishment.

[Go Native 70]

Well put MB. I couldn't be buggered going into that much detail earlier

 

Land release is a big issue but one of the reasons holding it back is that continually spreading out is putting huge pressure on infrastructure. I blame that partly on the ridiculous pressure on governments these days to run budget surpluses. It got to the point in Australia that any government that wasn't running surpluses was considered fiscally irresponsible and I'd think this attitude continues? This has led to very little investment in infrastructure for the future. So it's all well and good to continue to release land further and further away from city centres but who's paying for the roads, sewage, water, electricity, schools and other infrstructure required to service these faraway burbs?

 

Increasing density is the key. It's cheaper all round as the infrastructure is already in place. The other issue in my mind is Aussies, especially first home buyers, have to be more realistic and modify their expectations. In most other major cities in the world the idea of a first home buyer immediately getting into a stand alone home in a good suburb would be almost unheard of. I'm sure some of our friends on here from London could attest to that. It's the expectation of having it all from day one that I believe is causing many of the frustrations out there. People need to get real.

 

Personally though as I still have some investment property in Aus I'm not at all unhappy that prices have continued to go up! Retirement is just that little bit closer

[Mantas 3]

Hey. I didn't say they were my views. This is the landscape in which Nationalism thrives. Perceived or real.

 

I said the foreign investors are helping drive up prices. It was a comment in regard to what's going to happen in the future rather than now if current immigration and foreign ownership laws remain.

I also clearly stated that the 45000 people were immigrants not asylum seekers.

Your anti-Australian bias is affecting the way you interpret peoples comment and opinions. It's no wonder you find them all offensive. You wouldn't have it any other way.

 

I agree with the Gen Y comments. I lived in a caravan for 3 years while saving for a deposit on my first home. But housing affordability is now 3 times harder than in my parents day.

 

I don't agree with your terminology of asylum seeker though. Most of these 'asylum seekers' have boarded a commercial jet airliner and flown to Indonesia. Once their feet are on Indonesian soil they are safe, free from persecution. The term refugee is now void. In fact if they come from the middle east they are now in a country with the same religion and have way more in common with Indonesians than us. So to then go one step further and risk a perilous 5000km ocean crossing in a rickety old boat is crazy. They come for economic benefit as well as asylum.

And what are we meant to do with the Tamil Tigers coming over now?. Which ones are the good guys and which ones are bad? Who sorts that out? Do we just welcome them all with open arms? What about the guy that blew up his own boat, killing 5 of his paying passengers and injuring a few of our navel personnel? Sure we'll take him. He's just what we need. Surely a guys like that would be an asset in Kutchan hey GN. Does you compassion strech that far? Don't you think there's a little room for debate there?

And what about your precious morally upright Japan. They had a whopping 1000 refugee applications to process this year from a country of 80 million. A record number. Why aren't you on their case?

 

You seem very impressed with John Howard and his powers of persuasion. Suggesting that he was some kind of messiah to the 'brain dead ultra conservative, racist and xenophobic Aussie swill'. Although he was our longest serving Prime Minister, it was largely due to his rise to power in a very prosperous global climate. From what I recall his handling of the children over board affair and his overtly nationalistic attitudes to immigration and George W's war on terror, lead to his dramatic demise and he suffered one of the worst political defeats in Australian history. He didn't even hold his own seat.

 

Man. ...I've never known anyone as impressed with him as you.

GN I couldn't give a toss if you find my comments offensive. You left. I stayed.

 

 

 

[Mantas 3]

Originally Posted By: Mamabear

But for Mantas to blame the immigrant is unfair..

To blame Mantas for blaming the immigrants is unfair. Re read the post. I said it's helping to add pressure on prices.

[Mantas 3]

Sorry, I did say 45000 illegal immigrant. It was a typo.

[Go Native 70]

Actually you said 45,000 illegal immigrants.

 

This figure is mostly made up of visa overstayers and they are not considered immigrants but are living in Australia unlawfully and they actually attract very little political debate compared to the much smaller amount of asylum seekers and those dastardly 'boat people'. So much debate about boat people who make up only a couple of thousand people or so each year. It's frankly such a small amount of people the debate surrounding them is incredibly ridiculous and one can only assume motivated by factors that border on racist.

 

If you want to compare Australia to Indonesia, well what can I say? There is no comparison. Indonesia is hardly a bastion of human rights and compassion. I spent many years involved in political groups raising concerns about human rights in that wonderful country. Your arguments on this issue seem straight out something I would have expected from Pauline Hanson. Ignorant and racist but hey you're certainly not the only one with such thoughts in Aus these days.

 

And I have repeatedly raised concerns over issues here in my beloved Japan. You seem to think my having a go at aus is in some way to justify my move here. Well as I said earlier I was extremely critical of Australia whilst I lived there, my critical interest is not something that has only occurred since my move to Japan.

[Mantas 3]

So the guy that blew up his boat and killed 5 people would be welcomed by the Kutchan community no worries? That's great

 

Would questioning him on his motives to come here and be part of our society be regarded as racist on our part?

 

And just for the record GN. I don't have a political bone in my body, but the the one and only political rally I went to was an Anti-Pauline Hanson rally. Your continual reference to Hanson and Howard and the xenophobic references made about the Australian population in general displays more about your own bias and prejudices than anything else.

[Go Native 70]

Well how else can I comment on anything without including my own bias and prejudice? We all come to a debate with our own bias and prejudice do we not? Maybe you'd prefer we all think the same? Patriotism is a very good way for countries to socially impose same thinking amongst the populace that's for sure

 

I have no idea about the guy who blew up his boat. Although I may take an interest in major national issues in Aus I'm not really keeping up to date with day to day news. Do you have a link to the inicident you're referring to? So far your ignorance on the issue of immigration doesn't give me much hope that it will turn out to be anything other than a beat up by the media or groups with an interest in restricting asylum seekers gaining residence in Australia.

 

You do also realise I hope that the 45,000 figure you've quoted is not a yearly increase but a figure of the total amount of people living in Aus withut a valid visa and has remained relatively unchanged for the last 20 or so years?

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Originally Posted By: Mantas

Originally Posted By: Mamabear

But for Mantas to blame the immigrant is unfair..

To blame Mantas for blaming the immigrants is unfair. Re read the post. I said it's helping to add pressure on prices.

OK..
'the migrant is helping to add pressure to prices'

But I think the report blaming the migrant and international investor for the lack of affordable housing in this country is unfair.

As detailed previously there are numerous much larger factors that are in play - and if those were sorted then the impact from immigrant or foreign investment would be negligible.

[Mantas 3]

I'm still trying to work out how a few broad statements about our social problems have been constude into, Mantas the Hanson/Howard loving Zenophobic racist that blames immigrants for all our woes

 

Here's a link

Apparently it was all our fault too.

[HelperElfMissy 42]

Ahhh...I am not agreeing with GN on the Howard/Hanson thing.

 

Just pointing out that the housing issue has a lot more depth than a few immigrants buying houses in the Great Southern Land.

 

We are all good Mantas.

[Mantas 3]

Originally Posted By: Go Native

You do also realise I hope that the 45,000 figure you've quoted is not a yearly increase but a figure of the total amount of people living in Aus withut a valid visa and has remained relatively unchanged for the last 20 or so years?

Yes, well aware of that. Point is they are living in houses they shouldn't be, working in jobs they shouldn't be and using resources that they shouldn't be, all adding pressure to system already under great pressure.

[Go Native 70]

It gets construed that way Mantas because of the way you presented your argument. Fairly basic lack of understanding of the figures you were using with broadbased statements that are similar to things you would have heard coming out of the mouth of someone like Hanson. You may well not be racist or xenophobic at all yourself but the way you presented your argument was little different to what you'd expect out of some tawdry tabloid aimed at the ignorant. Xenophobic and racist attitudes are not always blatantly in your face or violent (Japan is a good example) but can be purely through ignorance and acceptance of false and distorted information.

 

I think the best measure to guage how racist Australia remains is to imagine a scenario where all the boat people arriving on our shores were white people from England. Lets say some conflict has occurred in Europe and there's 1000's upon 1000's of English refugees and asylum seekers turning up on our shores. What do you imagine Australia's response would be? Would we be processing all their claims at offshore detention centres? Would they be held for up to years in these centres? Or would Australia mobilise a massive relief effort to assist them in every way we could? I think it's interesting to consider this scenario.

[Go Native 70]

Originally Posted By: Mantas

Originally Posted By: Go Native

You do also realise I hope that the 45,000 figure you've quoted is not a yearly increase but a figure of the total amount of people living in Aus withut a valid visa and has remained relatively unchanged for the last 20 or so years?

Yes, well aware of that. Point is they are living in houses they shouldn't be, working in jobs they shouldn't be and using resources that they shouldn't be, all adding pressure to system already under great pressure.

And no one in aus I'm aware of, including myself, are against sending these guys packing back to their homeland if caught out. Considering a large portion of them are from England, the US and other parts of Europe though is probably why it's not a major issue, at least in popular debate.