Burton's POTA ending

[frannyo 2]

OK so I just saw Tim Burtons Planet of the Apes again.

 

I remember being confused by the ending when I originally saw it and I am just as confused now. What a crappy ending. Anyone get it? Even online it's difficult to find a satisfactory explanation.

[nzlegend 1]

freaky! I was just watching it too (on star channel) and was thinking the same thing! I even looked on the IMDB to find some answers.

[BagOfCrisps 24]

Did you find anything SG?

 

What was he thinking.

 

Give me a minute or two and I'll type out the different explanations...... hold on a sec.......

[BagOfCrisps 24]

1-For Thade to fly off...

 

-He must have got released from the space ship at some stage. To do so, he must have been pardoned, ...or freed by partisans of his.

 

-He then must have been allowed to go about his business, i.e. not imprisoned by the new regime. Or his own troops have let him get to Wahlberg's escape pod.

 

-The most likely way out, indeed, will have been via Wahlberg's pod in the lake. But apes are famously afraid of water, so Thade -the humans' worst foe- will have coerced, or bribed, or manipulated humans into getting it out for him.

 

-The pod must have been still able to fly, even despite crashing and spending time underwater. Now, we know that the astronauts' express purpose was to get a spacecraft so easy to pilot that an ape -literally : Pericles- could do it. In that respect, it's conceivable that Thade would be able to use it.

 

-An alternative, as suggested here and there : the apes build one. Remember the slave merchant nicks stuff off "Pericles"'s pod; maybe a manual ? The apes, according to this thesis, would then be able to understand it, master siderurgy, electronics and space travel technology and -only in Thades' lifetime, too !- build a functioning one, that Thades, somehow, gets to fly (either steals it or , despite his political stance, is allowed to take control of). Huh.

 

-So , somehow, Thades flies off, gets caught in the good old vortex, and lands on the planet of the end. Now what ? He accomplishes something revolutionary, comparable to Lincoln freeing the Black slaves in American history : we can assume that he manages to lead his fellow apes to victorious uprising. And all this in his lifetime, phew.... (Question : what's an average life expectancy for an ape ?) "Ape-raham" Lincoln, hee hee... (copyright me mate Dave Bird.)

 

 

 

2-Thade overtakes the astronaut.

 

Another highly unlikely / unreliable hypothesis. How did he manage it ? Two possibilities : either by accident, or he planned it. Now, chance can't be discussed : it just happened, good for him; but, on the other hand, to achieve it... that would mean that Thade -a novice- would be able to master time travel and outwit Wahlberg, an experienced astronaut, so as to overtake him on the way and precede him by -presumably- a few centuries.Right....

 

But my big beef is about the actual location : what planet are we talking about ? In the original, we all remember -courtesy of, arguably, the most stupendous cinematographic ending of all time- that the astronaut C. Heston discovers he was on his native planet all along. Is it still the case ? No. Wahlberg takes off, travels through space / time, and lands on a planet ruled by apes.

 

 

 

 

 

3-The planet was Earth all along.

 

-Which would mean that the experienced astronauts, on the mother ship, were not able to recognise their own planet ? Even though they crashed on it, and -presumably- came out of their spaceship : it cracked open, remember... So it's not like they were hovering above, they must have noticed that they were able to breathe, outside... And it didn't occur to them that they were on Earth. Now, everyone knew -even laymen- , already on the twentieth century, that there isn't a single known planet with air and gravity acceptable to man around. So that would mean that by 2029, the possibility would have occured... Another license to be taken on board.

 

-If such is the case... when do they crash ? In their last recorded messages, they make clear that the planet is unfamiliar and unpopulated. For the Earth to be desert, they would have to crash-land either before mankind appeared, or after it disappeared.

 

-Before mankind. But where are the dinosaurs, then ?? For the Earth to be totally inhabited, that would mean devoid of any lifeform, right ? Problem is : before the dinosaur age, the Earth was... covered in water, which is where life started. Doh : the astronauts don't mention that small detail.

 

-After mankind, then. We must then assume that an apocalypse of sorts wiped out all lifeforms ...like a Marilyn Manson worldwide tour (doncha know he is The Antichrist, boo-hoo ?). That's the most credible possibility.

 

-Or... different angle, which would bring an answer : these cosmonauts must have been seriously confused, and not have detected actual life existence ...presumably present over the hill, out of sight. Silly billies.

 

 

 

4-The planet is NOT the Earth.

 

-But humans and apes are able to breathe..., Cf. remark above conditions necessary for life : literally unique sofar in our solar system. In order to encounter favourable conditions... by 2029, space exporation must have been taken a hell of a dramatic step, and taken man beyond our galaxy's barrier

 

-...and have evolved there with exactly the same physical attributes as on our planet. Ah.

 

All in all, more than highly unlikely. Which validates the planet-is-Earth thesis.

 

 

 

 

5-but... Where do them damn horses come from ?

 

It is nowhere said that the mothership carried other animals. So, once again, the planet wasn't inhabited, as described by the astronauts... With such a proof of the unreliability of their testimony, one is led to conclude that anything is possible, then ! Untrustworthy narrator.

 

 

 

6-Where do ...the humans come from ?

 

According to the video message, the apes onboard went, er... apeshit, and slaughtered the astronauts. Fair do. ...So where do Estella Warren and family come from ?? And there's quite a lot of humans about, too. So :

 

-they're either all descendents of hypothetical astronaut survivors -another hypothesis to take on board-

 

which would have taken quite a number of generations to get so many people ... but the Charlton Heston ape told his son Thade about his greatfather's experience of seeing civilised humans : i.e. two generations only,

 

or : the planet was not inhabited after all. These dumb cosmonauts were definitely blind !

 

 

 

 

7- The time travel problem.

 

I talked about the need for precise rules, such as flaws for heroes, or fatal weaknesses for monsters, which allows for the possible defeat of seemingly invincible baddies, or suspense in narration : all powerful heroes would prevent any real tension.

 

Time travel is a typical Pandora box : if you introduce the possibility of changing conditions (such as a story's ending), then there is no reason why the ending we are offered should be valid : some character can always re-alter it. The only loophole / caveat would be to show the time travel device getting destroyed, thereby preventing any further change.

 

If Thade goes back in time and imposes his will upon history, then how come humans in the future are able to build a space station ? Surely, ape rule would cancel out humans getting scientific...Boxes within boxes ! Never-ending conundrum.

 

 

 

 

To start the ball rolling, fellow Red ("he's big, he's French, he won't sit on the bench, Laurent Blanc... Laurent Blanc") "Goldfinger" writes :

 

"I don't think Thade goes back in time at all. It would be enough just to escape. All he'll have to do then is to persuade/manipulate the apes that the humans will destroy them etc., and thence stir them to resume physical domination over humans. If he did go back in time to prevent Wahlberg, then Wahlberg would probably have been prevented from getting into the pod and leaving in the first place, and would therefore not stumble upon what seems like the future Lincoln at the end.

 

I think it is safe to assume that the planet is Earth. The people are referred to as humans (and are), and although technically humans are not literally defined in relation to a single planet, Earth, (which is interesting, but probably as much due to the time that definition was written as anything else) it seems unlikely that they could sprout on another planet exactly as they have done here, or that they too were brought to the planet by a spaceship. Even if the planet had a similar environment, it may have had entirely different environments in it's past, to the ones which shaped humans on Earth. So for these reasons, and because bringing the whole thing close to home makes it so much more interesting, I think the planet must be Earth. (Unless of course, they try to tell us that some of the human astronauts survived. That would just be a cop-out, and would seriously piss me off, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest).

 

The big question is, if it is Earth, then: "When" on Earth? There can only be two possibilities. Either it is way back before civilisation, or it is post World War III. The future would seem the more likely of the two, if it weren't for the fact that Lincoln appears even later, almost exactly in replicate of its actual/former (?) self, apart from the fact that it's run by apes of course. This would seem damned near impossible, especially as neither the humans nor the apes had any notion of our world as it is or was. So the film must be set pre-civilisation.

 

Say the astronauts crashed/landed before man existed, and introduced the smart primates to Earth. These primates evolved through time, and then came a new species - us. But the primates got there before us, and were physically and mentally advanced, and therefore dominating, and they interrupted the progress of man towards his destiny. In fact, usurping man, by a twist of fate brought about by man's own evolution. Which would be good actually. Man's destruction being brought about by his own advancement is a great theme, I think, although perhaps not very original (look at "Hamlet", and even "The Terminator").

 

I seriously doubt all this would stand up to any kind of science, but I suppose that's what makes it science-fiction. Anyway, I don't think the new version is a patch on the original, which I hate the look of, but must admit is a great film. Cheerio, Goldfinger."

 

 

 

 

 

From Slate Magazine, now (adapted), by Josh Daniel (Slate's managing editor), posted 30th of July 2001 / discovered today :

 

"While Plot Holes usually delights in ridiculing movies that don't make sense, today it feels obliged to defend Tim Burton's "Planet of the Apes" remake. The movie's surprise ending has left some critics scratching their heads: The New York Times' Elvis Mitchell called the finale a "puzzler"; Slate's David Edelstein said it doesn't "make a lick of sense" and asked, "Has Burton lost his wits?" (...)

 

Yes, the shocker is wildly implausible, but it does hang together with a loopy sort of logic. Here's the bit that's causing confusion (...) : after a climactic battle on the apes' planet, astronaut Leo Davidson takes off in a spaceship and flies into an electromagnetic storm, with hopes of returning to Earth in the 21st century. While he's in the storm we see his chronometer spinning backward, and he does eventually crash-land on Earth—in Washington, D.C.'s Reflecting Pool, as a matter of fact. Only now, the Earth is ruled by apes too! In place of the Lincoln Memorial, there's a monument dedicated to Davidson's ape nemesis, Gen. Thade, for "saving the Earth for all apekind". (...) So, how can Thade have already conquered Earth for the apes when he hasn't even been born on the ape planet yet?

 

Answer: Before Davidson leaves the ape planet, there's a quick shot of Limbo, the orangutan slave trader, rummaging through his spaceship and slyly pocketing something. Evidently whatever he pockets contains the secret to space travel. manual. Thade, who's pointedly left alive at the end of the climactic battle, must have built a ship, flown into the time-warping electromagnetic storm, and landed on Earth at some point before Davidson returned. Then he led Earth's apes in a rebellion against humans, took over the Earth, and had the monument built for him. Of course, back on their home planet, the apes don't even have simple motors yet. So, whatever Limbo takes from the spaceship allows them to, in Thade's lifetime, master physics, build computers, design spacesuits, test spacecraft, and send the general into space while he's still young enough to conquer the Earth."

 

Cf. my detailed comments on that theory -the usual one- above. La version habituelle selon laquelle les singes deviennent capables de voler en moins d'une génération grâce au manuel dérobé par l'esclavagiste.

 

 

 

 

 

From "Mark" in Movie-Mistakes : "The pod that Mark Wahlberg arrived in is still at the bottom of the small pond and the Mother Ship may still have some pods that can be launched (B & C). Remember the Mother Ship still had working systems so Thade may have used either or both to leave the planet, having escaped from the mother ship (it's old and crashed, there are bound to be some gaps). When getting into space he could have entered a time vortex and arrived any number of years before Mark Wahlberg arrives at the memorial at the end of the movie."

 

-You would then have to imagine that the hypothetically remaining escape pods are still operational after all that time.. Plus all the other objections raised above.. Thade s'enfuirait (dans le passé ou sur la Terre) avec l'un des vaisseaux d'évacuation resté dans la station géante.

 

"-Other additions/alternatives include Thade using the gun in the past to help the apes overrun humans" Thade utiliserait le pistolet pour s'emparer du pouvoir. Et l'astronaute reviendrait sur la même planète quelques siècles plus tard pour "admirer" le résultat.

 

-"and it possibly being a completely random alternate universe that happens to have a monkey called Thade in its history." Which would be closer to Boulle's original concept of an alternative universe... which would then have to resemble ours biiig time, in all details but one : the races involved ! Credibility rating : something around 0.0000000000000000000001 /10. De mieux en mieux : l'astronaute atterrit dans un univers parallèle, ressemblant au nôtre en tout détail, sauf un : les races concernées !

 

 

 

 

 

Another correspondent glen@antefacto.com (Glen Gray) writes : "I really enjoyed the movie until the ending. It was a real "Where the hell did that come from." I've not read the original book so I don't know how close Tim's ending is to it.

 

I do have some ideas on the planet. I seriously doubt it's Earth : there are two or three moons orbiting the planet. Also the Oberon is orbiting what appears to be Saturn at the begining. Though no location is mentioned. Given that it's only 2029 the likelyhood of even having a manned mission to Saturn by then is thin so I doubt it's some planet outside our solar system. If we presume it was Saturn, then the storm not only would have sent the pods back in time, but possibly across our solar system to Earth. With the case of the many moons making the planet not Earth then it's plausible to think that the storm could have sent the pods to anywhere in the universe : the "worm hole" effect. This makes more sense to me.

 

The ending is less of a blur than I thought yesterday. But still a little weird in the context of the film. Perhaps it's a linkage to a sequel, how Thade takes over the Earth; I've no doubt that the planet at the end is Earth : the planet shows the American continent as the pod comes towards the planet.

 

Holes I've spotted/read. If it is a new planet that has no fauna, then there is no way that the horses should be there. I can't see any reason why a science exploration ship like the Oberon would have horses. They can't fly recon missions. Plus we never see any other animals, birds, etc." Aha ...La planète n'est PAS la Terre : deux lunes en orbite autour; la planète finale, par contre, est bien la Terre : contours reconnaissables du continent américain. La fin , avec le général vainqueur, pourrait être en annonce / préparation d'une suite possible.

 

 

 

 

 

19th of March 2002. Reader Terry Anstead writes : "How's this...the Planet is earth in the far future. The" (electro-magnetic) "storm hits the Pods, and the Oberon, and is still in the vicinity when Leo Davidson comes back up..

 

Why does Thade need to go to the storm? To bring the storm to Thade! The storm touches down on the planet, just after the ending of the movie and takes everyone back to earth's past. The Apes are a more advanced civilization in the movie, so they adapt better to earth's prehistoric times and become the dominant species, or, because sub-humans (Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon) are still evolving, a little bit more of ape in the mix and evolution is altered : intelligent Apes are the humans. Personally, I like the alternative universe theory, or else why the reflecting pond and the Washington Monument, based upon an egyptian obelisk?

 

On the other hand..." L'orage électro-magnétique à effet retroactif aurait atteint la planète.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(20/03/2002) Reader Mike adds :

 

"After seeing the movie and reading the other theories, how's this for grand unification theory ?

 

The planet of the apes is indeed earth in the future. Probably Earth was thrown into the stone age by a cosmic disaster such as an asteroid. Maybe the 2 or 3 moons circling the planet are part of that disaster. Clearly the outline of the continents has been changed. Since horses are on the planet, it has to be earth. The extra moons and different look of the planet can be explained by the cosmic disaster. The existence of horses on the planet cannot be explained as easily. It's definitely in the future because Davidson's chronometer went forward on the trip there and went backward when he left. I also believe that Thade probably made his way into another pod inside the space station. The station was still operating in some ways and it's logical that he found the operational pod while trying to hide or escape. I'll bet the pod was easily set to autopilot and went automatically to the nearest planet. I suspect he hid the same cosmic storm that moved Davidson back in time. Remember Davidson and the other Chimp didn't land at the same point in time so it's reasonable that Thade landed further back in the past. Somehow Thade was able to take control of Earth at that point.

 

I'm sure there will be a sequel to explain." "Thade" est lui aussi reparti en arrière, mais a atterri avant l'astronaute, et a pu prendre le pouvoir sur Terre. Excellente hypothèse : Y aura-t-il une suite au film, qui expliquerait les énigmes ?

 

 

 

 

 

(25/05/2002) "Some toughts. when he lands in the mirror pond, he encounters a fully developped ape civilisation looking like washington. i say thade when he's locked up in the control room can probaby learn a whole lot about pretty much anything, especially the two most relevant aspects of the spaceship: how it actually works and genetic engeneering (i take it the control room can survive some bullets if if survived 1000 years) so he has all this knowledge (and knowledge is power) maybe he can use it to bust out, assemble an invasion force that would track down the cloud and hit earth approximatly 100-200 years before present day. (there must be heaps of apes that still hate humans..or maybe he and his army get chased off the planet by the good ape/humean pact) anyway, he takes over the 19th century earth with his 2029 technology, liberates all the apes, destroys all the humans. and resculpts lincoln's face. after that the ape on earth society evolves into a civilised society (changes like that are possible.. take japan..) " From reader "http://www.droon.org"

 

NDLR : -What do you mean, Japan ?

 

Droon : "Well, you can see alot of police officers pulling up to the crash site (not military) and there's some passer-bys (sp?) that are well dressed and carry a camera wich they are free to use. this is a long way from an alien invasion force. but not that long.the invasion must have taken places when washington allready had it's current form. from the fact that they re-chiseld lincoln's face we can deduct that the apes use what's allready present. the question is: how long does it take from a total war situation won by an alien race at midievel level to evolve to our current society model (more or less) this is what japan did in the decades leading to the war and then the years after it. they went from midievel to hyper modern in less then 100 years. but it's also possible the ape invasion took place like.. 20 years ago and that they just coppied the entire human system. in history we can also see that invadors often take over the superior culture from the invaded. for example rome taking over large parts of greek culture. 20 years seems like long enough. say 5 years of fighting, 5 for rebuilding and getting it running, and then some to let it all sink a bit. 20 years after the war started (40) europe was also in it's 'golden sixties'." (27/05/2002)

 

 

 

Alan Yost writes (04/06/2002) : "I've read through some of your page so far and one problem comes up that you seem to be missing. The planet or hero lands on cannot be Earth because just before he lands and you see the planet coming up, it has TWO moons. Last time I checked Earth has one." More thoughts the next day : "Ok, One thing has recently popped into my head. In all this space traveling wouldn't Einstein's theory of relativity come into play? I mean, it did in the original book. Einstein's theory is that if someone is traveling in space for a period of time at even high speeds time on earth for those left behind is much more. So, while our hero is gone for a period of time, either in space on the ship or on his way to the ape planet, earth time would have passed much more then his. So by the time he gets back 100's or even 1000's of years could have passed. Plenty of time for thade to show up (somehow) and spread his ideas through apes already 'altered' by man and already thinking about rebellion. I think the time warp mixed with Einstein's theory of relativity will end up being the explanation of this weird ending. Assuming of course there is a sequel. Burton has already said he has no interest in doing it, which makes me wonder if he had any actual plan in mind on how it happened aside from just shock value."

 

 

 

From NYC's highlander 13/06 : "i dunno if anybody else thought of this...but isn't semos an anagram of moses ??????????? this makes lots of things clear...."

 

"Ok, the ending is simple (not completly flawless, but I think it works) if you remember one thing that seems to have been forgotten in all these comments. The original ship (oberon) crashed on earth in 2029, the year leo was from. it took the apes X ammount of time to dominate earth and establish a civilization of their own. (Leo's calendar thingy goes up to 24??) When leo attempts to return to his time he makes it as far as 2184(?) If the apes first escaped from the oberon in 2029 they would have had over 150 years to assume the civilization of man. The society leo sees at the end is part of the progression towards the ape society represented in the bulk of the movie. The only major flaw (that I can think of) is how the apes went from assuming the positions of humans (driving cars and what not) to a society lacking the technology they assumed.(05/07/2002) " XveganXcowboyX

 

 

 

07/08/2002 : "I would definitely go along with the timeline mentioned above, where Leo only makes it back as far as 2184; that's why he is seeing the planet ruled by Apes, which they will continue ruling for the next 400 years. My additional comment would be that the statue of Thade could actually be Semos -- if apes are using last names. They were definitely related; and the statue didn't look exactly like Thade; so it might have been his ancestor 'Semos Thade'. The planet may or may not have been earth; it could have been mimicked to appear like earth. This society seemed even more advanced than 400 hundred years later; maybe humans still had some power and weren't yet relegated to slavedom; and were providing 'tech support' to the apes. " from grepsy@yahoo.com .

 

 

 

JuicyPhil

A : Loig7

 

"I have a quick idea of what the ending means ... I'm afraid I don't have time to include all of the different possibilities of this hypothesis ... but what if the time warp was not only a time warp, but a door between dimensions? Perhaps the planet was Earth, as you suggested, but in a different dimension? At the end, maybe something weird happened and the dimensions combined. Just an idea ... but my favourite hypothesis so far.

Let me know what you think."

 

 

 

Keep them coming ! 07/09/2002 : ade_majek@hotmail.com (folarin Majekodunmi)

To: Loig7@aol.com

 

"How's this for a hypothesis based on an amalgamation of different hypotheses

presented. If the Oberon crashed thousands of years before the arrival of

Davidson, we can assume that the time warp does not transport objects over a

specific period of time, but rather more erratically based on the moving

objects trajectory, this would explain why Davidson and Peracles arrived at

similar times (having similar flight plans as Davidson taught peracles to

fly), and how Davidson managed to return to earth at around the same time he

left. Had Thade reactivated the one of the pods he might have indeed

returned to earth at any point in time at his leisure, then using the

superior gun from Davidson he could have overcome America during the civil

war, aligning himself with the forces of the North. Once the battle was

over he could then claim amongst the humans that it was he and not Abraham

Lincoln that was their saviour, and try to adopt his persona to allow his

subjugation of the "hated" human race (Remmeber that Thade is bald, and he

might just wear a wig). In addition he could have asked the pod to return

to the storm, thereby sending it back to the planet (using the stolen

manual) at the time he left and use this as a means to move more of his

loyal followers to earth. These apes could then interbreed with the normal

unevolved apes on earth at that time speeding up their evolution. A viable

population needs on 30 individuals and it would have been easy to ferry apes

over using a single pod, as the pod itself runs on nuclear fuel, which would

last for many such trips. In addition it is possible that Thade started his

breeding programme earlier and that the statue in the memmorial is actually

his descendant, and this hypothesis is given credence by the the fact that

the name of the ape read on the inscription is Thadeus and may explain the

difference in appearance."

 

 

 

 

 

 

26/09/2002 Rodrigo writes : (Excuse me if my English is not good, I´m a Spanish speaker)(NDLR : nah, no worries, mate !)

"In order to reach a possible explanation, we DO NOT have to be based on

suppositions, only in the FACTS given in the movie.

The facts I recall are :

 

-Beginning: Year 2029, The Oberon ship is in the space (near a planet like

Saturn) and leo davidson works in the US Army, or so.

-During the storm, Leo sees Pericles taking a sort of worm-hole, and he

takes another one DIFFERENT from Pericles.

-Leo travels trough time AND space, and lands in a planet where apes rule

and humans are a kind of slaves.

-Davidson´s ship crashed into the water, it´s ruined (besides apes are

afraid of the water, so no one could take it out and repair it).

-The planet IS NOT the Earth, it has two moons. Other explanations try to

explain the extra moon as reminds of an earth battle or meteor impact (it

would take millions of years for those pieces of rock to gather and form a

satellite).

-The human and apes speak English, they learned it before.

-The Oberon goes to the storm (to rescue Davidson?) and crashes in the SAME

planet as Leo, only centuries before, don´t remember how many.

-The planet is inhabited.

-The apes (genetically modified), get stronger and smarter and take control

of humans (we don´t know if they killed them all).

That´s how the apes evolve, learn to speak English from the surviving humans

and make them slaves.

The humans we see in the planet are descendents of the original crew of the

Mother Ship. (we don´t know how many there were in it).

-The gun that Thade´s father hid is similar to Leo´s one.

-For some reason,Thade covers Leo´s landing proofs (own benefit?, something

he suspects or knows, that we don´t?).

-We don´t know where the horses came from.

-When Pericles lands, in the middle of the battle, The apes start talking

about prophecies.

-Once in the Crashed Mother Ship, the only thing that allows someone to

enter the cabin is by handprints checking, so Thade had no apparent way of

breaking out, (remember that the gun was the most powerful weapon that was

in the planet).

-We don´t know when the ship´s clock stops.

-The planet where Leo arrives IS the Earth.

-The apes who rule the earth have the same devices and vehicles than we have

now.

 

By knowing these facts, we have a few questions that we can only suppose or

imagine the answer:

-Where there only chimps in the Oberon? (we have to suppose that there were

also gorillas, oragutans and horses).

-How did Thade managed to escape from the cabin?

-How did Thade Reached the Earth?

 

 

These answers are difficult, we can suppose that with help, Thade escaped

from the Oberon, built, found or repaired a ship and, through the space

storm, reached the Earth in Lincon´s years (another thing, Thade could´t

have conquered the Earth alone, he must have had an army to do so).

It´s not possible that the storm hitting the planet led them to earth (The

storms were near the Planet Of The Apes and near Saturn).

Thade´s motives to conquer the Earth are clear (as i´ve read before): rule

the planet as Leo conquered his.

 

But knowing Tim Burton, it opens new explanations:

-Maybe he wanted to cause an impression similar to the one that caused the

original one (unexpected ending).

-Maybe he made the ending without possible explanation because he wanted us

to enjoy the movie first, and then break our heads formuling suppositions,

making up reasons, to discuss with our friends, and even writing to a place

that we can share each other views of the film, trying to reach out an

answer that can satisfy us.

 

No one has the answer that satisfies me (even mine!!!), there seems to be no agreement about the ending.

 

I believe that it was made just to puzzle us... and it worked." -Rodrigo Amaya (-Loig : Muchas gracias, amigo.)

 

 

 

 

 

01/12/2002 "Here is my thesis over the ending of the movie :

 

As you know, the movie starts in 2029 AD. But when Captian Leo goes through the electromagnetic storm, He goes through the storm and advances to the 2500's. The Oberon itself also goes through the storm, but they went through slower, so they only advanced a few years into the future. The ship crashed on Earth and by the 2100's the apes had taken over Earth wiped out most of the human population and started to act more like humans (remeber the genetically altered apes on the Oberon went wild and took over the crew). But Leo came in in the 2500's and as time went on, the apes started to slowly turn away from human technology and started to establish their own primitive colony on Earth. This is where captian Leo comes in. When he leaves, he travels back in time, but not far enough to 2029, he goes back to the 2100's where the apes have taken over with the human technology still present. So, where the movie ends is actually an intermediate step between Earth when the movie begins and Earth in the middle of the film. I am aware that this may not be clear so if you have any other questions, I would be glad to answer them." Trevor

 

 

 

 

 

 

21/04/2003 : "I have two theories for why the movie's plotline seems confusing and senseless.

 

THEORY 1

Burton made the movie this way to allow people to make their own interpretations of the hidden parts of the film and get some extra fun in discussing their ideas with others who have seen the film. With the movie made as it was, it is possible to make several interpretations.

 

THEORY 2

The movie starts in 2029 AD, but based on an Earth planet in another dimension in a parallel universe which I would call Earth 2. On Earth 2, human civilization got more advanced than on our Earth or Earth 1 but it is debatable if it took longer. The history of Earth 2 would have had some differences from Earth 1 and AD might have stood for something else than on Earth 1. When the electromagnetic storm appears before the space station, it is a time-space anomaly that allows echos of the future to be detected by the space station's crew. These echo images the crew sees are from them and their space station being drawn into the storm they can not avoid. The future the crew are getting glimpses of is the station being drawn into the storm and crashing on a planet, not Earth 2 in the future, about a century. This planet, I call Planet X, has humans living as primitive people and perhaps some ape species similar to ones on Earth 1. The space station miraculously survives the crash enough for it to have some components functioning and for the experimental apes to survive. These experimental lab apes are genetically modified and the effects of going through the electromagnetic storm advances their evolution. When they leave the space station of Planet X, they interbreed with the local apes and further increase their evolution but their population. In about 4 or 5 centuries, they evolve to dominate Planet X and be in the state just before Leo Davidson's arrival.

If Leo Davidson did not leave the space station in 2029 AD, this is how things would have remained for many years to come but in the movie he leaves the space station. He enters into the storm, travels both time and space to crash on Planet X. His actions alter the course of events and history of Planet X by helping to bring about peace to the apes and humans as shown in the movie. However near the end, he tries to travel back in time and space to return where he left off but he does not. My theory for the surprise ending is while he tries to travel back to his home, he gets thrown off his original course and crosses over into another timeline but in another dimension in space or another parallel universe. Travelling into a time-space anomaly is tricky business since navigating accurately is not possible. In the movie, Davidson's ship gets a very rough ride and disrupts the ship's functions severely.

Instead of going home, Davidson ends up on another planet I would call Earth 3. Earth 3 has some similarities to our Earth and Earth 2, Davidson's home, but on Earth 3 ape-human evolution and history took a different course independent of any intervention of humans from Earth 2. On Earth 3, apes won the war with humans by wiping the humans out. Without any competition for planetary dominance, the apes develop their technology to the point in time of Davidson's arrival.

With this plotline theory, Burton's movie is perhaps exemplifying morals about taking risks, letting go of our past and make the best of the present. Leo Davidson could have had a pretty good life on Planet X if he decided to stay. Peace existed between the apes and humans, he had respect of the humans, he had the spaceship that Pericles brought and he had the affection of the female character played Estella Warren. He could have help the apes and humans to get them on the track to develop a great civilization long after his death. He would have been revered as a great person like Thades was on Earth 3. Unfortunately, his zeal to go home brings him to a worse fate on Earth 3 where he will surely be tortured and killed."

Vincent L.

 

 

 

 

 

And another one! (25/07/2003) :

 

"i think i have come up with what i think is

the perfect explanation for how on earth could the apes be controling earth

in the ending

 

well here it is , the all powerful time warp hits the planet wich the apes

are on which must be earth in the future because of the horses and existance

of man, sending everything and everyone back in time to about 1800 or so

where man had already built the white house and washington monument as it is

highly unlikely that the apes would build the same thing. Back in the day

humans didnt have the best defence against attack BUT whos to say thade

didnt find some weapons which the cosmonauts left behind (one in the jungle

and maybe some in the pod and space ship) this would have been more than

enough fire power to take control of earth in 1800 for chrsit sake." Thank you, Shane Spurr.

 

 

 

 

Turning the screw.. 21 Sep. 2003.

 

"I must be a real skeptic, as I have only an anti-explanation or sorts. I say that Burton had no coherent theory at all. I say that Burton--in true Hollywood form--thought it would be cool (OK, thought-provoking) to put Thade's head on Lincoln's shoulders, further anticipating that we, the ever-suggestible movie-goers, would attempt to make sense out of the nonsensical.

 

If I'm right, well then so was he. For in our efforts to justify what was otherwise a reasonably decent remake of Apes, we appear to be attempting to fit the proverbial square peg into the round hole, performing mental gymnastics, searching for some arcane meaning in something that probably has no meaning, much the way we seek meaning in a strange music video or a bad piece of modern sculpture.

 

Anyone remember 'Chauncey Gardener'?" from Danny309@yahoo.com

 

 

 

22/09/2003. To be honest, I don't quite know what to make of this next contribution. It is simply too good to be true; I suspect a prank... so here we go, get ready for... Mr. Swingler.

 

"Thanks for this wonderful website. I've pondered this dilemma a lot, and

what had already come together in my mind has been enhanced by some of the

additional comments concluded by other's neuro efforts. My background is

classical archaeology / Biblical archaeology, which has given me 30 years

of trying to figure out cultural histories from fragments - the reality of

our own books about so many of our actual Earth cultures and

civilizations. I.e. much more of our text books are speculative fantasy

fabrications given-as-fact than the general lay public ever imagines. My

30 years of such piecing together bits and pieces of long-lost

civilizations has in the last decade been joined by an in-depth layman's

study of astrophysics, which, as a layman I can only know as a

non-mathematician, though my grasp of the theories as presented by Sagan,

Hawking (in all of his books), L. Krauss and many others whose books live

on my shelf here at home is much pondered and perhaps adequate.

 

My original points of key focus that seemed crucial to unraveling this

mystery were the clues of: a) the genetically enhanced primates on baord -

of which we see several species, allowing for the presence on the Planet

of the Apes of Chimpanzees, Proboscus Monkeys, Gorillas, and Orangutangs

with smaller soldier types that might be rhesus? the statement that the

"ruins" of the "CALEMA" had been there thousands of years. These two clues

seem paramount to understanding what happened.

 

First, while all of the contributors have given worthwhile ideas, I would

like to congratulate two in particular: Folarin Majekodunmi who is the

only one to catch the fact that the Oberon's ruins had been there for

thousands of years; and Rodrigo Amaya whose detailed list of fact-clues

covers most of the salient points that are indeed keys to the "truth" this

film presents, which we as viewers are suppposed to conclude from specific

clues repeated at the end of the film, after the credits, on the video

version. That Tim Burton presented these segments of the films as clues

gives us some insight into his own thinking on what he did have as a

vision, and gave to us as a scenario.

 

Second, the keys fit together in the following manner:

 

The Oberon in 2029 is within our solar system and is near Saturn.

The electromagnetic storm contains "broadcasts of all times" at least as

far as the technology existed - not so long, as pointed out in another

film: 'Contact' (the 1936 Olympics being the first truly powerful

broadcast signal). However, we see the crew of the Oberon viewing its own

MayDay message - evidencing that the Future is also held within this

strange time-warp storm.

Rodrigo Amaya noticed something even I had not taken into account: Leo

witnesses Herakles' pod being hit / sucked in by a worm-hole, just before

he is hit / sucked in by another. This key event evidences that, as R.A.

rightly concluded and others loosely theorized, the storm was irregular

and randomly transported its targets through time. We most certainly thus

can take as fact that the Oberon was hit and sucked in by yet a different

worm-hole and, transported far into the past.

The Planet of the Apes is definitely not our Earth, and it is perhaps 2800

to 3200 AD for Leo, in time. The extra moons evidence the different

planet; we are not shown any continental forms at all, and with Burton's

attention to detail, these elements must be taken as exposition. By the

rate of accelerated time on the clock, which we do not get to see during

the last seconds of descent, time could easily be 3200 to even 3800 AD by

Earth Time, on this distant planet.

The Planet of the Apes is therefore a remote planet, which tells us that

the electromagnetic storm is both a time and space distortion, as others

have rightly theorized.

The opinions expressed here that it is impossible for life forms identical

to Earth to have evolved on any other planet is a common and mistaken

assumption. Study of our Earth's life record show that actually, variation

of form is very limited, and that natural forces in this material physics

absolutely favor certain organism mechanics. As we study the harmonic

behavior of sub-atomic particles and atoms, molecules and compounds in

their formations - physics and chemistry - we find that patterns repeat,

due to physical tendencies inherent in the physics of this matter made of

energy as it is across the universe. We know that the same elements exist

universally, as well as many of the compounds, as we have been able to

identify. In fact, little new has been discovered to exist in physics, due

to this natural tendency for sub-atomic particles to resonate, combine and

form units and structures as they do, from atoms to suns to galaxies to

planets to rocks and minerals. This being true, it should be of no

surprise that, life forming, it will follow quite similar patterns and

produce quite similar organisms due to the same influences of chemistry,

physics, gravity, etc. The unique solvent H2O - Water - is the only

compound in the universe that allows for intelligent life with mobility

and mechanical capability to evolve, using captured solar enegry through

organic mechanisms and chemical compound storages for fuel. The geological

life history we find on this planet evidences that the form of 4 limbs

with specific functions front and back, with appropriately distributed

muscles, has been the driving natural default design overall. Nature

favors this design rigorously. While species on our on planet have been

numerous, and the possibilities of species varieties within this genetics

is far from exhausted, repetition seems to be the natural order, and the

same gravitational and chemical conditions existing on any given planet in

the cosmos, similar evolution of organisms following natural trends

logical to this physics for reasons we have yet to learn, is actually an

expectation.

That we see no other life forms in the film says nothing of the fauna on

this planet. 'Negative Evidence' or the absence of seeing a thing is not

evidence for its non-existence, though recalling Burton's attention to

detail, he may have intentionally created an almost sterile planet as

regards fauna. This would of course virtually rule out the existence of

horses except by transplant, thus it is more logical to accept that fauna

has merely been "off camera" and unseen, and that it is a full fauna. Our

few scenes out-of-doors are of the jungle at night, with apes making a lot

of ruccus - my own experiences in the Amazon are that one does not see

much life at night in the space of only a few brief minutes, often even in

an entire night of hopefully watching. Our other views are daytime in

barren, dry desert where there are no plants. This too is an environment

where fauna, though present, is rarely seen even with great preparation to

see it.

So, the Planet of the Apes is a developing planet, it has a full range of

fauna, horses have evolved, and, still, it is pre-historic in time.

Realizing that in our Earth's 4.65 Billion year history that we sapiens

and humans have emerged only in the last few seconds of time, we do not

have to go more than a few hundred thousand or perhaps million years back

in our own planet's history to find a planet almost like ours, except

without simians and sapiens. The contributor who spoke of 'no dinosaurs'

forgets that our own planet lost them 65 million years ago, and, at least

64 million years passed without them, leading up to our recent past just

before first simians and sapiens emerge.

The Oberon took a different worm-hole ride and crashed on the planet

"thousands of years" before Leo arrives. The contributor who noted that

Leo and Herakles arrived only days apart rightly concluded the similar

flight trajectories, and close proximity of 'capture.' The Oberon, huge in

size, taking a different trajectory, speed, etc. apparently was caught by

another sling and was taken BACK in time, thousands of years.

The electromagnetic storm may or may not have further accelerated the

genetic enhancement of the simians on board. Good consideration.

The film only shows one person saying that 'they're killing us all' and

this is so subjective, we cannot take it as some have, that ALL humans

were killed. Some may have fled before the woman even made this recording;

some may have fled and escaped after she herself was killed. By the size

of the Oberon - huge - we assume a numerous contingency of crewmembers,

male and female. With perhaps dozens of them fleeing into the wilderness,

and THOUSANDS of years to reproduce, a numerous population of humans

should have obtained. The joke is made by the orangutang that, 'human

culture is from the waste down' implying high sexual activity and frequent

reproduction. The human population from the Oberon is fully explained.

The several simian species on the Planet of the Apes, all descendents of

species aboard the Oberon, is fully explained. Their accelerated evolution

of capability is implied in the recorded message Leo retrieves. Their

current level of civilization is fully explained.

The scene with C. Heston speaking to his son Thade is fully in context

with all of these details: the gun we see is stored with dirt and dust; it

looks like it is thousands of years old - an ancient artifect. That

Thade's father's grandfather knew something of the arrival of humans may

have such a simple explanation: a) one or more additional pods were sent

out by the Oberon and arrived through a different worm-hole two

generations earlier; the discovery of the grandfather's time may have

been an archaeological expedition to CALEMA just as in the original film,

and this is a recovered artifact, found along with the reading CA - LE -

MA inside the Oberon, and enough other evidence to conclude what Heston

tells his son. Those who conclude less than "thousands of years" that the

ruins have been there ignore both the highly aged condition of the Oberon,

and the direct statement of fact made by an informed, upper class citizen

chimp, who should know.

Thus the creation of the simian and human populations on the planet, both

from the Oberon and planted there, out of evolution, seems correct, as is

stated by the apes themelves. The planet was a developing 'life planet'

and was possibly near the same point of evolution our own planet had

reached, only a few hundred thousand years or one or two million years

ago.

Now, trying to understand the ending from all of this.

 

 

a) Leo's pod returned to the same time he had left, by our witnessing his

clock (a plot exposition we are shown for this purpose) which we can more

or less conclude, again, as we are not allowed to see the entire spinning

of the clock, which is still spinning backwards as we are cut away from

seeing it. Thus it is safe to calculate an Earth Time of 2029, or, as some

have suggested, a century later, it makes little difference.

 

 

Thade somehow was either released as per the new Truce, and found a

working pod on the Oberon (good thinking by others, I had not thought of

this highly probable scenario), or, as others have suggested, with the

help of humans, after his release by those who would have sat and talked

with him until he acted peacefully enough to be released, he retrieved the

sunken pod with human help, and, as noted, being designed for simple

simian piloting, he could have flown it. One way or another, Thade

obtained a working pod, and with or without any supposed manual pocketed

by the slave trader (which is the least logical possibility in every way)

Thade flew the pod, entered the electromagnetic storm, perhaps on

autopilot, and, emerging near Saturn as did Leo, was transported to Earth

- PERHAPS CENTURIES EARLIER. OR CIRCA 1863 during the Civil War, as

suggested, with a weapon that could have both won the war for the North

and Lincoln as well as subjugated the humans afterwards, as suggested.

 

 

c) The historical observations of post-war Japan and Europe completely

healing and rebuilding in just 40 years is well taken by that contributor.

Thus the question of HOW LONG BEFORE did Thade arrive is justifiably

anywhere between the Civil War and 1950 to 1990. That we do not see humans

at the end is again, by Negative Evidence, no assumption that humans have

been annihilated; they could be controlled and confined as we do simians.

 

 

d) The question of whether or not the Licoln Memorial was re-sculpted, or

made that way originally by apes, begs the entire question of the film's

premise: are we seeing the effects of a full scope of long-term evolution

of simians from some remote past where Thade landed and conquered the

Earth, and that social evolution has so closely mirrored human history

that everything is the same except it is made by apes (a theory suggesting

that all evolution is essentially pre-determined by physics at the

subatomic level and we have no free will at all), or, are we seeing the

ffects of a short-term, recent take-over, that in 40 to 60 years has fully

assimilated human culture, as some have suggested?

 

 

e) The still confusing plot key that remains a mystery is indeed Thade's

murdering of the two gorillas before he even sees the pod, with clear

implication that he understands something the two gorillas do not. Had

they seen the actual pod and described it, and also noted human footprints

emerging from the water, and told this to Thade off-camera? We must take

the subsequent scene with Thade and Heston as proof-positive that Thade

seemed ignorant of any past superiority of humans, or of the gun,

technology, etc. So, why did Thade so cunningly wish to hide the landing

of the fiery object? He killed the gorillas still some distance from the

pond it sank in; he dragged their bodies all the way to the pond and threw

them in; did he see the pod, in daylight? These remain unanswered

questions, and their relevance to the plot and ending are enigmatic.

 

Last, the speculation of Leo returning not only through time and space but

also dimensions into a parallel universe is certainly plausible as science

fiction, and physics theory. The TV series 'Sliders' was based on this

premise.

 

In that final consideration,

 

granting to Tim Burton a motive and moral

message, the suggestion that Leo blew it by failing to accept his present

condition - leadership fame and glory, political power, the girl (his

leaving her so quickly and apparent disinterest is only credible if we

imagine that she is only 13 years old and he only likes women his own age)

and a useful future - is tempting. Certainly we can all ponder this

message, and ponder when it might be time to stop pushing and work with

what is in hand. However, on the other hand, it is a very natural urgency

that Leo wants to somehow go back in time and save all of his ship mates,

whom he has doomed to death by disobeying orders and flying into the

storm. His noble anxiety to try at least to save them by getting back to

the moment he left, and stop them from entering the storm, is a solid

answer for his actions as well. In this case, the message is: if we could

go back to try and correct our mistakes, will we instead only make them

worse still?

 

This seems very Burtonesque as well.

 

Thanks for helping me come closer to understanding this excellent filmwhose ending has, like all of us here, haunted me.

 

If, as others have suggested, this was Tim Burton's only devious desire,we stand as his undying reward: he did it, we can't let it go.

 

All the best, David Swingler" Well, I never... !

 

 

From Ben Walker: "I reckon that when the lone astronaut crashed on the planet, he was crashing on earth. It was earth in the future from our time, after the humans who inhabited it had been wiped out. Thousands of years before though, the space station crashed on earth, yet still after all previous human life was gone. Apes became more intelligent and turned into the things we see in the movie, and because they are so much like humans, they evolved in exactly the same way as us. And so when the astronaut appears to be back at earth in the ending, he is at the same earth he always was at, just hundreds more years into the future when apes had gotten to the time we are at nowadays.

Timeline:

Humans alive(WW1,WW2 1990's) etc.

Humans Dead due to WW3 or something of the sort.

Space station from past crashes on earth(came through the space storm thing) and the apes begin to evolve into the humanoid things.

Hero astronaut guy crashes on earth.

The rest of the movie happens.

Hero takes off near the end of the movie.

He travels forward in time, and once again lands on earth.

He is now in the period that the apes have evolved like us, at around the same technologically advanced level as our year 2000.

The End.

 

I hope I've given some insight on the matter."

 

 

[2pints-mate 0]

Thanks for typing that up BofC.

[scouser 4]

Let's face it. Crap film that looked nice with very silly ending that would have had some outrageous explanation in a possible sequel.

[BagOfCrisps 24]

You're very welcome. Only too a couple of minutes actually.

[veronica 2]

I thought that movie looked amazing but it just wasn't that interesting and the silly ending.... the original is a great movie I really like that one. Wouldn't mind seeing it again.

[nzlegend 1]

 Originally Posted By: veronica

. the original is a great movie I really like that one. Wouldn't mind seeing it again.

the original is a classic great movie, NHK BS showed all 5 of the original series last month (though only #1 is great).......You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!

[2pints-mate 0]

Number 2 made me laugh with those humans singing hymns to the bomb. If I remember they did a "bomb version" of Lords Prayer as well...

[joshnii 2]

Haha yes that was funny. I just tried to search for it but coudln't find anything.

 

Was it the 4th one where the 2 apes were in the US? That was quite interesting I recall.

[BagOfCrisps 24]

No kidding:

 

"Almighty and everlasting Bomb"

 

"All things bright & beautiful

All creatures great and small

All things wise and wonderful

The good Bomb made them all

How great the Bomb almighty

Who made all things well....."

 

Glory be to the Bomb and to the Holy Fallout. As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be world with out end.

 

Amen.

 

My dear everlasting bomb come down among us, to make heaven under earth like the hour of darkness. Oh instrument of god. Grant us thy truth. The truth to define in us. Feel that truth and through that flicker.

 

Let everyone go to his private shelter. Empty the streets. There to find the city of the dead. Let the blessing of the Bomb Almighty and the fellowship of the Holy Fallout descend on us all, this day and forever more.

 

 

 

 

[pie-eater 207]

hilarious

 

I liked those ape movies

[BagOfCrisps 24]

I'm going to revisit them soon I think.