Virginia shooting

[bushpig 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by samurai:
However... WTF do you do with them? How do you get the guns out of the society? Australian buy back? so... what... the registered guns are accountable for? What about the gazzilion/ majority of non-registered guns? What about all of the illegal guns as well?

Sure, there will always be illegal guns, but many people who had unregistered guns handed them in too in Aus. How about offering a grace period, after which being found with a non-registered gun carries a HUGE criminal penalty. It would reduce a certain amount of the problems, but granted not all of them

[samurai 0]

Thank you bushpig. I think you're right that a grace period with a HUGE criminal penalty would help. Fewer numbers are fewer numbers. And that would help with allowing those are legal keep their hunting rigs. And, I think this may be a very immediate attention given to the current states' lack of control.

 

The states' independence is the biggest problem so far.

[Mantas 3]

Samuri- Chill out a bit mate. I'm not launching a wholesale attack on your country, just one aspect of it. I have been to the states many times. East and west. When I lived in Ontario 17 years ago I made many friends from the states. I still have some of those friends today.

I am not anti American (like a lot of people are) the US has done some great things in the world, it has also done some really bad things. There are things about the states and it's people that I like and things that I don't. One of the things I don't like is the way a lot (not all) Americans hold in high esteem people who are famous. It doesn't seem to matter how you get famous. So long as you get your face on T.V. Just take a look at all the Jerry Springer style shows out there, they are just a modern day version of the old fashion carnivale freak show. The US aren't alone in this but they are certainly leading the way.

 

All I'm saying is that the US media is massive and projects a huge image of itself to the rest of the world though it's movies and other outlets and part of that image involves gun toting heros like Bruce Willis, Sylvester Stylone, Arnold Swartzeneeger ect. Even Ronald Reagan rose to fame riding around on a horse toting a six shooter .

That image is not a very accurate depiction of American life as far as I'm concerned. But it is part of their (your) culture, like it or not. While rational thinking, intelligent, well travelled people like you and me can seperate this fact from fiction, for others the line is a little blurred. It's my personal belief (and thats all it is)that these others are influenced by these images.

Interesting point you made about Chile. During my 9 month trip through South, Central and North America. The only time that I found myself in a really dangerous situation was when I was in downtown Denver Colorado

The statistics cant be denied,. The US leads the world for Gun related crime and gun related homocide per capita, despite what you saw in Chile. How do you explain that if you think the US is being unfairly critized?

[Mantas 3]

six posts were up before I finished typing, so edit out the gun crime stats statement

[samurai 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Mantas:

The only time that I found myself in a really dangerous situation was when I was in downtown Denver Colorado
The statistics cant be denied,. The US leads the world for Gun related crime and gun related homocide per capita, despite what you saw in Chile. How do you explain that if you think the US is being unfairly critized?

Thank you for telling me you have been to the states. It truly does mean a lot to me. (I'm being honest... it does mean a lot to me.) I'm honestly ashamed if you found threat in Denver.

As far as the rest of the stats are concerned... so what? what's (honestly) your point?

If this has turned into an argument, then I'm going to keep flogging it until those who post offer just a drop of some new legislation. I really am hungry for it. And, I will offer myself as abuse until somebody gives me something new.

Perhaps I haven't made myself clear- I know we rule the world in gun-related homicides. (actually that statement isn't entirely true... for starters- think Brazil.)

There is no need to cite any statistics. Actually, if you ask politely, I will give you those stats. I grew up with them. I am honestly turning this Cho-manifestation into an opportunity for you, the Mr. Answer, into a podium of direction.

Lead me.

And if you cite one more statistic from the past, I will honestly buy you a beer so I can justify punching you in the face.

Please... brilliant multi-lingual bloggers... solve the f'ing problem. And- stop pointing fingers like there is some promised land that we americans aren't privy to yet.

[daver 0]

samurai,

 

the point some of us are trying to make with the whole gun culture issue is that this is an issue that reaches beyond legislation.

 

the culture of glorified violence finds its core audience in america. there is simply no denying that. man, i have spend my life straddling two media outlets; the massive american, and the meagre canadian. i can assure you that we don't get the same type of bombardment of sensationalized violence that finds its way on to every network in american media on the cbc or global tv. surely this must have an effect on the way vulnerable people deal with disputes. i am not suggesting as some have that america is a "gun culture" but i will not hesitate is stating a perverse gun culture permeates its way into so many facets of american life. this is VERY different to the rest of the developed world. and as such, most of us just simply can't understand the likes of the NRA and their "cold dead hand" resistance to any legislation that might make average americans safer from (i cringe to use this word) normal domestic gun violence.

 

the incident that has recently past is anything from normal, but despite it being the largest massacre of its kind, it is certainly not unprecedented. that is even more a worthwhile investigation. why school rampages? so i suppose there are several separate topics on the chopping block right now.

 

but let's get back to legislation. you want new legislation, i'll make it easy, no sales or commercial production of weapons with the intended purpose to kill human beings. no one hunts with an uzi, no one needs armor piercing rounds to down a stag. why should average joe be able to buy them?

 

yes as you have said in previous post, this would not stop the illegal flow of hand guns and automatic weapons, but it would set a precedent for the populace. is there a link between media violence, real life enactment, and the government's acceptance of the blood trade? this is an honest and not rhetorical question. i think there is. many americans (a grand generalization i know) typically like to pride themselves on being anti big government, yet the same big C republicans tend to also be the first to without question obey any command issued from the white house so long as it comes from the right party. what influence does government policy have on the mind set of the average citizen? i tend to believe in america, (especially small town mid west america) a lot.

 

as you have said previously this is an area, like many others, in which state law mandates regulations; in texas it is legal to be drinking and driving (at the same time) so long as you are not intoxicated, and you can fire a weapon from a moving vehicle. there is no indication that you cannot combine the two activities. in mississippi there is no such crime as attempted murder. i think, correct me if i am wrong but, neither of these examples fit in with the american standard perception of normal. can't the supreme court step in and clean up some of these issues for the benefit of the country? my ignorance in american law shows its self.

 

yes statistics can be manipulated, and they usually grow tiresome quickly but none the less in this case they deserve some time to contemplate. is there a connection between significantly larger statistics in gun related violence in america, be it the legally purchased or of the black market variety, and the government's, be it state or federal, condolence of the death trade?

 

would any changes have stopped this event? likely not. could changes positively effect the country and the average person? i think, most certainly yes.

[Mantas 3]

 Quote:

Originally posted by daver:
samurai,

the point some of us are trying to make with the whole gun culture issue is that this is an issue that reaches beyond legislation.

the culture of glorified violence finds its core audience in america. there is simply no denying that. man, i have spend my life straddling two media outlets; the massive american, and the meagre canadian. i can assure you that we don't get the same type of bombardment of sensationalized violence that finds its way on to every network in american media on the cbc or global tv. surely this must have an effect on the way vulnerable people deal with disputes. i am not suggesting as some have that america is a "gun culture" but i will not hesitate is stating a perverse gun culture permeates its way into so many facets of american life. this is VERY different to the rest of the developed world. and as such, most of us just simply can't understand the likes of the NRA and their "cold dead hand" resistance to any legislation that might make average americans safer from (i cringe to use this word) normal domestic gun violence.

This is the point I was trying to make, Daver said it better than I could.
The way forward:
Tone down the violent gun related entertainment. Be it movies, cop shows, video games for kids, whatever. YOU JUST DONT NEED IT TO BE ENTERTAINING. Hollywood puts out some fantastic movies, with no violence at all. They just get lost in the thousands of "blast them away, shoot em up, blood and guts" style movies.
Maybe you don't see it so much in Japan but in Australia with get ablosutely flooded with them, to the point where I have to constantly monitor what my kids are watching at 8.30 PM.
CSI is one show that starts at that time, its not uncommon to see blood splattered bodies at the beginning of the show.

[samurai 0]

I have no disagreement with anything above. I have also stated my opinions on stopping sales of non-hunting rigs. So that legislation, that is currently part of the Brady Bill cited in a previous post of mine, is nothing new.

 

I'm sorry your countries are flooded with violent TV programs. Perhaps that is a sign of which genre of entertainment is valuable to import. While CSI, amongst others are very interesting to the american public, there are honestly endless amounts of programs that don't get imported into your countries that are not violent- and perhaps that is why they are not imported. I also agree that the over-all theme could be toned down. the legislation mandating such actions would be interesting to hear.

 

If anyone has any new legislation, I'm still ears.

[Fossil 0]

Im sorry but I think that this dependance on legislation is a fatal mistake.

We have strict laws in the west that prohibit murder and assult.

Has that stopped murder and assault?

In Western Australia we have very strict laws governing the purchase and use of handguns. Has that stopped criminals from buying illegally imported handguns and using them in robberies and murders?

Passing a law will in many cases ensure compliance by the law-abiding. That is no help when the criminally inclined or the deranged are intent on achieving their goals by any means.

The means does not inevitably lead to the act.

I have the means to commit the most heinious of crimes having legitimate access to poisons, firearms and explosives. Does this make me an inevitable danger the society? No and again NO! Because I am mentally stable,have an abbhorrence of violence and have been taught to resolve emotional and contentious issues in a civilised manner.

I hope that the pointless and expensive kneejerk reaction that followed the Tasmanian horror isnt repeated by any govt. The leaders must look to the harder and more effective options, through education and example teaching the young that violence is anacceptable and cannot be used to resolve social and personal conflict.

That might even involve the use of ..........I cant say it.........ok here goes..CENSORSHIP

It is a word harder to use these days than the F word

[samurai 0]

That WAS well said.

 

especially since you said "That might..."

 

Everybody censors their children to some extent or another due to their personal beliefs. Parenting is definetely going out the window. (And I'm not even a parent yet.)

 

"He was always quiet, we never thought he would be capable of such things." (Cho's family)

 

My question that results from hearing that; "So, you never thought your child may have been depressed? And feared for his life? You never assigned him to a councelor"

 

My mom was also quick to point out the average american's over-leniance problems. The whole PC thing going through the roof in hopes of never offending anyone.

 

So many people on the VT campus mentioned "There wasn't anything more we could have done." Maybe not... but maybe they could have afterall???

[kintaro 0]

VT was a tragedy. That little prick couldn't have done close to the damage he casued w/out a gun. Guns suck, the NRA are a club of morons and the world would be a better place if guns didn't exist. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand this.

 

In Uni I was held at gunpoint for several hours by a guy that had a legal Glock but was also legally declared brain damaged from a serious car accident. The background checks,etc are bull shit. Sellers of guns are only interested in the sales profits, not the application of the product.

 

I doubt if Thomas Jefferson would be proud of what's going on with our American right to bare arms.

[Ezorisu 0]

The right to bear arms.

 

The right to bare arms has to do with undressing in public.

[samurai 0]

 Originally Posted By: Kintaro

VT was a tragedy. That little prick couldn't have done close to the damage he casued w/out a gun. Guns suck, the NRA are a club of morons and the world would be a better place if guns didn't exist. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand this.

In Uni I was held at gunpoint for several hours by a guy that had a legal Glock but was also legally declared brain damaged from a serious car accident. The background checks,etc are bull shit. Sellers of guns are only interested in the sales profits, not the application of the product.

I doubt if Thomas Jefferson would be proud of what's going on with our American right to bare arms.

Thomas Jefferson would defintely not be proud. Background checks are obviously failing.

Any ideas as to how to get rid of them? Maybe a giant UFO magnet to hover over the populace and collect them all up? No wait... I got it- BAN THEM!

[bushpig 0]

 Originally Posted By: Fossil

No and again NO! Because I am mentally stable,have an abbhorrence of violence and have been taught to resolve emotional and contentious issues in a civilised manner.
I hope that the pointless and expensive kneejerk reaction that followed the Tasmanian horror isnt repeated by any govt. The leaders must look to the harder and more effective options, through education and example teaching the young that violence is anacceptable and cannot be used to resolve social and personal conflict.
That might even involve the use of ..........I cant say it.........ok here goes..CENSORSHIP
It is a word harder to use these days than the F word

Isn't getting rid of the widespread acceptance of guns amongst the general population going to go some way to helping this education about their use though Fossil? I agree that education is the key, and that you will always get the genuinely disturbed individuals doing stuff regardless of the laws. But surely if guns weren't seen as a right, and were not so readily available, then that would be a start to re-education and attitudes toward conflict resolution.