Bikini Parade planned for Sydney mosque.

[Rag-Doll 0]

I guess I am prejudiced, then we probably all are to some degree. I was looking at Harris' book the other day - it looks interesting. Dawkins cites it a couple of timesin his book. I might pick it up once I'm finished with The God Delusion. One can't have one's views too often validated and confirmed. If nothing else it makes for a lovely sense of righteousness.

[Ocean11 0]

> I guess I am prejudiced, then we probably all are to some degree.

 

That's not quite what I meant. I meant that the language you used suggests something beyond what the original speaker said, so by interpreting what he said without sufficient reason, you prejudiced the terms of subsequent discussion.

 

Reading Harris does rather tend to encourage a tendency towards militant anti-religiosity.

[snobee 0]

Histrionics, Semantics ....tics aside, Mantas call is on the money.

 

The said Hilaly's intent, while only truly known to himself, is fairly open to critical analysis & definition based on a predictable pattern of inflammatory comments espoused over a good many years.

 

The luxury of speaking liberally in a liberal society (with such liberties not so forth coming in his beloved homeland) attracts the greatest liberty of all - that is to be as equally liberally condemned.

 

When, within the borders of a liberal country, a cartoon was displayed causing angst to Muslims, the resultant furore resulted in massive demonstrations, destruction and even death.

 

A few bikinis on show - not my line, but hardly a call to arms.

 

Mr Hilaly is peddling his intolerances on borrowed time and the tolerant ones have been pretty well damn accepting - up til now.

[damian 0]

"Tolerance" is in itself a word with very negative underpinnings.

 

When used by Aussies (a certain type of Australian), Tolerance means: you are not like me and you will probably never be like me, we teased you at school but as we grew up we stopped. When you are not around we call you wogs and nips and laugh at you. We would prefer it if you built your imported non-white culture in your own suburban enclaves. But you are welcome to live here without us (whites Anglos) openly hating you in public. We are not like that, we for the most don't hate you, we just tolerate you. And we pat ourselves on the back as though our tolerance is a virtue.

 

Tolerance is a very negative word. My partner is a Japanese girl, not an Anglo Australian like me. Does that mean I 'tolerate' her in the same way that many freckled suntanned Aussies tolerate other Asians in Australia? Of course it doesn't, but Australia is so fast to spout on about their 'tolerance'. It only seems like a big deal to the tolerant whitebread Aussies because they know what they are really feeling underneath.

 

Having said that:

 

- In our short life spans, tolerance is better than an absence of tolerance, although it in the end leads to deeper rooted problems.

- I am honest enough to say that I am not tolerant: there are a minority of migrants and Anglo Saxons alike living in Australia who have no right to do so, they are scum. I don't tolerate their cultural bad habits in the least.

- In 2000 I met a girl in Sydney who was the daughter of an Islamic family. She was firmly embedded in the very seedy Oxford Street gay drug scene. We had brief 'relations', she was a very dirty girl, naughtier than you can imagine. During more sedate moments we discussed the Christian-Islamic conflict and I passed comment that I didn't understand Islamic fanaticism to which she answered "that's why we will never, ever, beat them".

[Ocean11 0]

> "that's why we will never, ever, beat them"

 

They'll beat themselves in the end if we stop confirming them and their prejudices at every turn. Iran only turned to Islamic fundamentalism after the US and UK turned them off democratic politics by installing a brutal 'king'.

 

It's interesting that the tolerant Australians are being led in this rare display of intolerance by white supremacists (if I've read the stories correctly...)

[Rag-Doll 0]

>the tolerant Australians are being led in this rare display of intolerance by white supremacist

 

Just out of interest, where do you get this from?

[Ocean11 0]

From Mantas' first link;

"A white supremacist website has promoted the march. "

I'm not sure about the reliability of that.

[js 0]

We always get the backwards and forwards Anglo-Saxon comments on this forum, it would be nice to hear from people whose background is not so, i.e. representatives from the remainder of the planet.

 

For example, after centuries of ‘unhappiness’ India decided they couldn’t cohabitate with Islam, so generally supported the creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh (but still they don’t have peace because of militants – mainly Islamic ones – funny that.)

 

Are there any Scandinavians, Western/Easter Euro’s, South Americans, and non-Tiger Asians out there to provide a broader perspective on the issue?

[Rag-Doll 0]

The issue is more than one of simple intolerance and really goes to the heart of the limitations of multiculturalism. Multiculturalism really only works when the different cultures are not mutually incompatible. I'm not talking about the current mutual mistrust or suspicion occurring between western societies and the various Islamic communities around the world - that comes from ignorance of each other* and the manipulation of the ignorance– but the more substantial clash of values (although I hesitate to use this word). At what point and by what standard does a liberal democracy, which supposedly embodies the ideas of equality and universal human rights (whatever the hell they are), act to restrain cultural practices that are otherwise acceptable to the community in question (or at least those who lead the community) but are repugnant to the society at large? Is it intolerant for a country like Australia to prohibit forced marriages or child marriages, prohibit blood feuds, prohibit honor killings, prohibit polygamy, prohibit rape in marriage, enforce universal education, enforce a uniform age of consent, etc.? I would say it is not. This problem isn’t limited to Islam by any means and indigenous communities are also forced to accept the imposition of Anglo-Saxon cultural standards as much as other non-Anglo-Saxon communities (such as those from the Subcontinent or Africa). Of course our own Anglo-Saxon culture accepts behavior that, by an objective standard of human rights, should be considered outrageous. It is just that we get to set the rules so whilst we might acknowledge certain behavior is wrong or of questionable merit, we tend to let it slide or deal with it leniently. But the important this is we do at least recognize these failings and act to remedy them. I’m thinking about domestic violence in particular, but depending on your view it could also include circumcision of male babies and perhaps even abortion. I object to Hilaly’s comments not because of the clumsy analogy but because the underlying sentiment is that women are soley responsible for the violence perpetrated against them and that the only solution is to impose restrictions on women in the form of modes of dress and behavior – IMPOSE as opposed to allowing them to make their own choices. I’m obviously not personally affected if a given cultural group in my society chooses to impose draconian restrictions on certain members of that community, but with clear conscience I can no more accept that situation than I can of man who abuses his children. One might counter with the view that members of the draconian community can choose to leave that community and in some cases that is probably true not for many I doubt it really is an option - think of the many women who stay in abusive relationships for years. Leaving is more than simply walking out the door.

 

Liberal democracies are good places to live because they are (generally) liberal and value individual freedoms and recognize the right to individual freedoms, and IMH(but Anglo-Saxon biased)O any attempt to promote a culture in a liberal society that runs counter to those values needs to be resisted because a failure to do so undermines the very nature of the liberal society.

 

 

* there was a global survey recently that showed that distrust and suspicion was highest in those societies that had less interaction between Muslims and Christians and that the larger the resident Islamic community in a Christian country the less distrust and suspicion. England was a notable exception in that it had both a large resident Muslim population and a high degree of distrust and suspicion.

[snobee 0]

l'sp - you're quite right in your mark on "tolerance". It inherently manifests itself in negativity, although the degree decidely depends upon the user & context - as are 1,000's of other "loaded "words in the English language.

 

Anglo-Saxon is always one such word that intrigues me. It was once a term used in reference to the historical merging of 2 societies/cultures and the resultant bretheren(esses). Now it seems it is a common term of villification.

 

And for extra loading add White.

 

Apparently the term loosely identifies the native English speaking nations - but I doubt many pure Angle / Saxony descendants exist. I myself tend to connect with the plaided ones of celtic origin.

 

RagD - I agree, as many would, the issues at hand are far deeper and complex than "simple intolerance"

 

To expect humankind to display a global acknowledgement, understanding & acceptance (is that loaded?) is possibly beyond the realms.

Witness the daily savagery wielded by peoples of their own ilk/communities/societies upon each other and sadly the future prospects of harmonious relations draws further and further away.

 

But I think, as Ragd so well stated, living in liberal (is that loaded?) societies affords us the opportunity to attempt to discuss and debate and hopefully right some of the wrongs and inequalities.

 

Theocracies of all bents historically haven't been able to provide such tolerant (ooops) worlds.

[Ocean11 0]

It's a shame that we Anglo Saxons have been so keen on establishing and encouraging mad theocracies, whether in Iran, Iraq, Israel, or indeed the US. If only we would stop and have a bit of patience with what was there before...

[daver 0]

no time for patience, the new world order awaits us!

[Mantas 3]

Most Australians are pretty basic people, we don't ponder too much about what's going on in the rest of the world , our isolation, is seen by many as a benefit.

People who use the word Tolerance are generally referring to people that come from cultures that are less tolerant. (if that makes sense)

Spud- It's not that we tolerate a certain race or culture. It's more that we tolerate what they DO and SAY.

 

The sheik is a classic example.

Here we have a man who visits Australia on a tourist visa then breaks the law by not leaving. Any blond haired blue eyed fluent English speaking backpacker would have been deported and worse for doing this. But because he was so loved by his Islamic community we bent the rules and let him stay. We tolerated that.

 

Then he breaks the law again on smuggling charges in 1999. No deportation this time either. We tolerated that.

 

In 2003 He is charged with assaulting police when they arrest him for driving a unregistered, uninsured vehicle. again no deportation, assault charges dropped, and a poultry $400 fine.

We tolerated that too. Even though a much tougher penalty would have been dealt out to any other Australian.

 

Then he gives a sermon in a part of Sydney, (where many of the serial rapists that targeted white Australian girls came from), about the blame for any sexual misconduct being the females fault.

 

Sorry we've run out of tolerance

[Ocean11 0]

Well deport him for breaking the law then, not for his religion or for his views on public modesty. Do you have the rule of law, or the rule of exhausted tolerance?

[Mantas 3]

He should have been deported back to where he belongs 24 years ago for breaking the law, then we wouldn't have to tolerate his deviceive and antagonistic comments he makes to-day.

I was replying to Spuds definition of tolerance( which I don't think is wrong ) it just differs from my definition.

 

Tolerance is a virtue in any society. Sometimes though it turns around and bite you on the arse!

[Mantas 3]

It seems like the great bikini march has been cancelled due to "negative media coverage".

I saw an interview with a young muslim lifeguard (Australia's first) about the anniversary of the Cronullla riots.

He said "What anniversary? There's nothing to celebrate, so lets learn from it and move on".

 

Very astute young man I thought.

[SerreChe 2]

btw, do you know where the word bikini came from?

[Mantas 3]

French non? is it something to do with Bikini atoll?

[SerreChe 2]

yes Mantas, exactly. sorry a bit off topic but just saw that the other day on tv and your thread just reminded me. A new line of bathing suits was fashioned by a designer and named after the bikini atoll nuclear tests. The bikini name has stuck since then.

[Mantas 3]

I didn't even use Google either. Still some life left in the sponge upstairs.

[Mantas 3]

Here are a couple more recent quotes from our highest ranking Islam Mufti.

 

On spruking about his 'contribution' to Australia.

 

"Anglo-Saxons came to Australia in chains, while we (Muslims) paid our way and came in freedom. We are more Australian than them."

 

Here he is basically having a spray at all of us.

 

"There is no freedom and no democracy (for Muslims) -- the most dishonest and unjust people are Western people and the English in particular."

 

Imagine if this was your daughter he was talking about here ? Gang raped by 12 Lebonese men !!!!

 

On the gang rapes in Sydney, he said: "A young man can meet a woman, smile, arrange a meeting, and then end up in jail for 65 years. (Bilal Skaf was sentenced to 55 years, reduced to 38 on appeal.)

 

That's it .No more slack for this guy. At best I could describe him as a delusional f@#kwit in de-nile.

When will he get it. It doesn't matter when , where, or how you got here. It doesn't matter what colour your skin, the shape of your eyes, or what religion you believe in.

It's about what you do, how you behave, and how you treat others while you are here.