Bikini Parade planned for Sydney mosque.

[Mantas 3]

At the risk of sounding like a Neo-nationalist, or creating another self obsessed 'Aussie society' thread. I was wondering what people thought about This

This is in direct response to comments made by our most powerful Moslem leader, Sheik Taj el-Din al Hilaly, about women being "the problem" when it came to rape because of they way they dress.

 

Is this a provocative, even (dare I say it) racist gesture aimed at creating further divisions in our multicultural society?

 

Or just a defiant feminine protest, desperate to preserve their freedom and way of life from an ever increasing minority and their 'new' vision for Australian values and morality.

 

It should be noted that some Moslem women have offered to join the parade wearing full hijabs and burqas

Either way I like to see it. Nothing gets me going quite like leopard skin burqa .

[Ocean11 0]

If some bishop says something stupid, would it be fair for the offended then to go and offend unrelated churchgoers in their parish with a display calculated to be unacceptable even in a city shopping centre?

[daver 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:
If some bishop says something stupid, would it be fair for the offended then to go and offend unrelated churchgoers in their parish with a display calculated to be unacceptable even in a city shopping centre?

hasn't that been done several times over already?

[keba 0]

The general sentiment of the statement by the Sheik has been expressed before by others (i.e. non-Moslems) before and hardly an eyebrow gets raised. In fact, Cardinal Pell gave somewhat limited support to the Sheik's comments shortly after the kerfuffle erupted.

I agree that the response by the mainstream media has probably been based more on his status in the Islamic world, than the substance of his comments, and ultimately this type of protest only serves to antagonise, rather than bring about understanding and tolerance.

 

On the subject of the comments themselves, women should have the right to dress in public as they see fit without risking sexual assault. Fact is, though, that there are bad men out there, who will inevitably target those whose attire emphasises their sexuality. It's not right, but it happens.

[Mantas 3]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:
If some bishop says something stupid, would it be fair for the offended then to go and offend unrelated churchgoers in their parish with a display calculated to be unacceptable even in a city shopping centre?

Point taken O11. But these are hardly unrelated church goers. The parade is being planned at the very same mosque where he made those comments during a sermon to his patrons. The very same patrons that have allowed him to stay in power when the rest of the country wanted him gone.
Ever since the Mufti made those comments he has been in total damage control mode. Of course he was 'taken out of context' , ''misunderstood' ect.ect. In nearly every interview since the poorly speaking Mufti has used the word MATE more times than than you could count. I wouldn't be supprised to see him in his next interview wearing a swagmans hat and a " I love Warney " tee shirt!

Personally I think rubbing his nose into it further isn't going to achieve a thing, but I respect the girls rights to protest as best they see fit. It would be nice to get a female perspective on this.

[Ocean11 0]

There's a bit more info about the details of the matter here .

 

 Quote:

The wife of the former Guantanamo Bay detainee, Mamdouh Habib, says she was present when Sheik Al Hilaly gave the controversial sermon last month. Maha Habib says there was nothing wrong with the sermon. "I have heard the speech that he has said," she said. "I have heard his words and I can understand and assure you the way I understood it that he wasn't talking to the Western people, he was lecturing us and telling us our duty towards being a Muslim and what is said in the Koran."

It rather reminds me of the Pope getting stick for lecturing people, faithful or not, about the bits of the Bible they'd prefer to ignore. It seems reasonable for a religious community to address the issue of modesty in its own way, especially if it doesn't impinge on anybody else. To say that he is condoning rape is ridiculous, and dishonest.

 

Instead of trying to deport this old bloke, they'd do better mounting a critique of his views, if indeed a coherent critique can be made.

[Mantas 3]

Here is the comments in question.

 

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside ... without cover, and the cats come to eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat's?"

"If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred,"

 

He has kept his message fairly cryptic. Which is part of the problem.

What did he mean by "cats come to eat it"? Rape?

 

Who is the "uncovered meat"? Scantily clad female?

 

And the fault being that of the "the uncovered meat",not the "eating cats" is what gets people blood boiling.

All this come on the back of a series of gang rapes commited by middle eastern men ,from this area of Sydney, targeting white anglo Australian females.

I'm willing to cut the guy some slack. He was probably trying to give a sermon on Islamic female modesty and adultery (and letting all the males in the congregation know it all the females fault). He just had a brain snap and thought he was back in his Islamic Native country and not in modern liberal, beach loving Australia.

He has coped a lot of stick from all quarters, including a lot from the Islamic community. There are plenty of fantastic young moslems in this country and I feel they could be better represented by someone better than this old fool.

[Rag-Doll 0]

>If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred

 

However way you want to interpret the words, the sentiment is pretty offensive.

[Ocean11 0]

Ah, it's good to see the actual quote rather than reports of the quote (which in the case of Muslims are often lies and distortions. The Prez of Iran hasn't called for Israel to be wiped off the map either...)

 

It's obviously a loose metaphor, not a precise analogy, so to understand it as 'immodestly dressed women are meat whom men can innocently rape' is plain stupid. Maybe Islamic discourse isn't as dumbed down and coarse as ours has become, so Muslims can understand that it's not a highly categorical statement.

 

So let's put it in perspective. The Mufti makes a statement about the risks of immodesty for Muslims. Then white women flock half naked to his mosque 'in protest'. Is it any wonder that Muslim men might start thinking that some white women are so stupid and insensitive and morally depraved that they might not even notice if they were raped?

 

(I think we Westerners need to look back at our own countries only 50 years ago before we start pointing fingers at 'medieval Muslims'. In my neighbourhood even 25 years ago, most of the women wore scarves to go out and wouldn't dream of sunbathing in the garden lest people (men) see them.)

[soubriquet 0]

"If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred,"

 

It seems fairly clear from the quote that he considers women who leave the home to be fair prey. Possibly also women who leave their rooms without wearing a hijab.

[Ocean11 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by soubriquet:
It seems fairly clear from the quote that he considers women who leave the home to be fair prey. Possibly also women who leave their rooms without wearing a hijab.

You're committing a logical fallacy. What he says is strictly true. The opposite of what he says is not automatically open to the interpretation you and everybody else have supplied.

It's rather shocking that such gross ignorance of rhetoric and logic should be the impetus behind immigration policy and blanket condemnations from the prime ministers of enlightened countries...

[Mantas 3]

The crux of the matter is that he thinks that when the "cats come to eat" the "uncovered meat". It's not the the cats fault. (Whatever the fark that means). Be it rape, adultery whatever.

 

It's not the mans fault.!

[Ocean11 0]

Not at all. The crux of the matter for any civilized behaviour is learning to strike a balance between provocation and response. More civilization tends to accumulate when people try not to provoke wantonly and try not to respond wantonly. The good Mufti was addressing one part of the equation, and most people are simply too prejudiced or stupid to understand what he said.

[soubriquet 0]

We've been here before. I have already admitted a failure to master rhetoric. I doubt that what he says is strictly true.

 

Are you sure that all muslim women wearing hijabs in their rooms are safe?

[Ocean11 0]

> Are you sure that all muslim women wearing hijabs in their rooms are safe?

 

No. Her uncle Ahmed might not have been listening closely enough at the mosque and may respond wantonly because of what he knew she was wearing under her khumur.

 

It's an uncertain world, which is why religion makes up rules.

[soubriquet 0]

Good. Excellent. In which case (assuming the original quote is correct) the Grand Mufti is wrong.

 

Can we now expect a statement that "women in their rooms wearing hijabs are uncovered meat, and if the cats come to eat, whose fault is that?".

[Ocean11 0]

Actually, yes, it was strictly true. She doesn't have an uncle Ahmed, and he wouldn't be able to get in anyway because the door is always locked.

[Mantas 3]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:
Is it any wonder that Muslim men might start thinking that some white women are so stupid and insensitive and morally depraved that they might not even notice if they were raped?

No. No wonder to me. I can tell you first hand that this is exactly what some muslim men think. When I was in Moslem countries with my young blond haired English wife. I can't tell you how many times I chased and throttled Arab and Inonesian moslem men for groping her. Grabbing her on the tits and arse in public places was common place ( daily). When she was teaching English in Indonesia she was spat on, pelted with rocks and abused, for what? She dressed as conservatively as she could in the stifling heat. In some parts of the Moslim world Blond white western female just about equate to ..Whore!
You could almost understand given their ignorance and limited comprehension of western societies.

But in Australia? ..Sorry.

[Mantas 3]

 Quote:

Originally posted by soubriquet:

Can we now expect a statement that "women in their rooms wearing hijabs are uncovered meat, and if the cats come to eat, whose fault is that?".

I hate cats. Except this one

[Mantas 3]

Originally posted by soubriquet:

 

>Can we now expect a statement that "women in their rooms wearing hijabs are uncovered meat, and if the cats come to eat, whose fault is that?". <

 

I hate cats. Except this one

[Rag-Doll 0]

>Ah, it's good to see the actual quote rather than reports of the quote (which in the case of Muslims are often lies and distortions. The Prez of Iran hasn't called for Israel to be wiped off the map either...)

 

I think you're being just a little disingenuous here Ocean. I've no doubt a man of your education and training in language is able to appreciate the substance behind what was said and that the reports of what was said are very much in keeping with the sentiment if not the actual words used. For the folks at home here is the full transcript of a speech by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at “World Without Zionism” conference in Tehran. This was reported by the Iranian government-owned news agency ISNA on 26 October 2005 at 13:10 local time (for original Persian text see: http://www.isna.ir/Main/NewsView.aspx?ID=News-603209)

 

Tehran, Iran, Oct. 28 – Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad made a keynote speech on Wednesday at the gathering of 4,000 students organised by the Association of Islamic Students Societies. The text follows:

 

I am grateful to God for giving me the great pleasure of speaking at this very important gathering. I thank God for seeing the pious faces of you, the valiant, aware, God-fearing and selfless children of the revolution, who understand with vigilance and intelligence the most important issues of our times and are active with great zest and in a decisive way in the most central issues of the Islamic world. I thank God for the presence of you dear young people.

 

The real question is what is Zionism? No doubt there have been many discussions in this conference on this issue and you have made studies in this regard, and you may know what I want to emphasize, but it is something worth mentioning.

 

We must see what the real story of Palestine is. Is the conflict in Palestine a war between some Jews on the one side and Muslims and non-Jews on the other side? Is it a war between the Jews and other faiths? Is it the war of one country with other countries? Is it the war of one country with the Arab world? Is the conflict only over the limited lands of Palestine? I think the answer to all these questions is negative.

 

The creation of the regime occupying Al-Qods (Jerusalem) was a heavy move by the globally dominant system and Global Arrogance against the Islamic world. There is a historic battle going on between the Oppressor World and the Islamic world and the roots of this conflict goes back hundreds of years.

 

In this historic conflict, the fronts have shifted many times. There were times when the Muslims had the upper hand and were active and forward-moving, while the Oppressor World was on retreat.

 

Unfortunately, in the past three hundred years, the Islamic world has been on retreat in the face of the Oppressor World.

 

I do not intend to go to the roots of the issue and I concentrate on a historical review of the events. In the past one hundred years, the last trenches of the Islamic world fell and the Oppressor World created the regime occupying Al-Qods as the bridgehead for its domination of the Islamic world. Bridgehead is a military term in warfare. When two divisions or armies are fighting each other, if one side advances and breaks through the front and captures a piece of enemy territory and builds up fortifications and strengthens its hold to make it a base for further territorial expansion, then we call this a bridgehead.

 

The occupying state (Israel) is the bridgehead of the Oppressor World in the heart of the Islamic world. They have built a base to expand their domination to the entire Islamic world. There is no other raison d’etre for this entity without this objective.

 

The battle that is going on in Palestine today, therefore, is the frontline of the conflict between the Islamic world and the Oppressor World. It is a battle of destiny that will determine the fate of hundreds of years of conflict in Palestine.

 

Today, the Palestinian nation is fighting the Oppressor World on behalf of the Islamic umma (nation). Thank God, from the day the Palestinian nation moved towards an Islamic struggle with Islamic objectives and an Islamic environment, and made Islam the dominating force in its behaviour and orientation, we have been witnessing the progress and successes of the Palestinian nation every day.

 

I must say that you have chosen a very valuable title for your gathering [World Without Zionism]. Many are sowing the seeds of defeat and despair in this all-out war between the Islamic world and the Infidel Front, hoping to dishearten the Islamic world.

 

Such people are using words like “it’s not possible”. They say how could we have a world without America and Zionism? But you know well that this slogan and goal can be achieved and can definitely be realised”.

 

If we take a look back, we had in our country a regime that was very violent, anti-popular, dependent on foreigners, and armed to its teeth. Members of SAVAK [the Shah’s secret police] controlled every move and a terrible reign of terror existed.

 

But when the dear Imam [Ruhollah Khomeini] said this regime must be destroyed, and we want a world without a client state, many of those who claim to be political gurus and other things said it’s not possible. The day when the Imam started his move, all the powers of the world supported that corrupt regime. Even after the massacre of Black Friday, the West and the East and regional powers all supported the regime. But our nation fought and now for 27 years we have a government that is independent of America. The Imam said the domination of the East and the West must be destroyed, but weak-minded persons, who only see the little world around them, didn’t believe him…

 

Our dear Imam ordered that the occupying regime in Al-Qods be wiped off the face of the earth. This was a very wise statement. The issue of Palestine is not one on which we could make a piecemeal compromise… This would mean our defeat. Anyone who would recognize this state [israel] has put his signature under the defeat of the Islamic world.

 

In his struggle against the World Arrogance, our dear Imam targeted the central and command base of the enemy, namely the occupying regime in Al-Qods. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in dear Palestine and which we witness today all over the Islamic world will soon wipe this scourge of shame from the Islamic world. This can be done.

 

We have to watch out for conspiracies. For more than 50 years, the World Arrogance has tried to give recognition to the existence of this fake regime [israel] and they have make many efforts to first stabilize it and then take further steps.

 

Some 27 or 28 years ago, they took an important step in this regard and, unfortunately, one of the frontline countries made this mistake, and we hope that country [Egypt] will rectify its mistake.

 

Recently, a new conspiracy has been plotted and is underway. They have been forced to evacuate a corner of Palestine and this was imposed on them by the Palestinian nation. But they want to sell this as the final victory and use the evacuation of Gaza and the creation of a Palestinian state as an excuse to end the Palestinian cause and goal.

 

Today they are making an evil and deceptive effort to turn the struggle into an internal conflict of the Islamic world. They want to create conflict among Palestinian groups inside Palestine by making them greedy for political positions or high office, so that these groups abandon the decisive issue fo Palestine and turn on each other.

 

With the excuse of having cleared the Gaza Strip to show their good will, they want a group of Muslim nations to recognise this corrupt regime, and I am very hopeful and pray to God that the Palestinian nation and the dear Palestinian groups will be cautious of such sedition.

 

Today the unity of the front in Palestine on its goals is a pressing necessity. The issue of Palestine is by no means finished. The issue of Palestine will only be resolved when all of Palestine comes under Palestinian rule, when all the refugees return to their homes, and when a popular government chosen by this nation takes the affairs in its hands. Of course, those who have come to this land from far away to plunder this land have no right to participate in the decision-making process for this nation.

 

I am hopeful that just as the Palestinian nation continued its struggle for the past ten years, it will continue to maintain its awareness and vigilance. This phase is going to be short-lived. If we put it behind us successfully, God willing, it will pave the way for the annihilation of the Zionist regime and it will be a downhill route.

 

I warn all the leaders in the Islamic world to beware of this conspiracy. If any of them takes a step towards the recognition of this regime [israel], then he will burn in the fire of the Islamic umma (nation) and will have eternal shame stamped on his forehead, regardless of whether he did this under pressure by the dominant powers, or lack of understanding or naiveté or selfishness or worldly incentives.

 

The issue of Palestine is the issue of the Islamic world. Those who are closeted behind closed doors cannot make decisions on this issue and the Islamic nation does not allow this historical enemy to exist at the heart of the Islamic world.

[Ocean11 0]

Rag-Doll, there's no disingenuousness involved. On the contrary, that take is an example of ignorance and prejudice of Westerners.

 

In the Islamic world, one can talk about the Zionist Entity and the regime occupying Al-Qods without actually including all Jews. Palestine used to be a region where Arabs and Jews mixed - and it's only through savage ethnic cleaning that that situation is being undone. What Ahmadinejad and before him Khomeini were talking about was undoing the state of apartheid in Palestine. States and regimes are different from peoples, and again, it is crass Westerners who are stupid enough to constantly conflate them all.

 

There are plenty of Jews who would be happy to see Israel be wiped off the map and the Zionist Entity forgotten.

 

I'm not a big fan of Islam or indeed any other religion, and I don't approve of the way people like Hilaly express themselves. But I don't think it dignifies us in the West to play completely stupid either.

[Rag-Doll 0]

>The issue of Palestine will only be resolved when all of Palestine comes under Palestinian rule, when all the refugees return to their homes [it's a pity the Kurds don't have the same level of support from their muslim brothers], and when a popular government chosen by this nation [which nation is he referring to I wonder – Palestine or Iran] takes the affairs in its hands. Of course, those who have come to this land from far away to plunder this land have no right to participate in the decision-making process for this nation.

 

I think most would agree that this is clear and unequivocal support for the destruction of the Israel state irrespective of one's cultural perspective. He is not advocating a peaceful settlement of the problem but the complete absorption of one state by the other - contrary to Israel which has, albeit reluctantly, accepted the idea of a Palestinian state. Not that I'm in a position to offer any judgment on the relative merits of either side's argument and both sides are adept at promoting their own view of the issue but I do believe (based in part on speeches like the one above) that the weight of hostility does lie on the Arab/Persian side and it is a hostility that extends beyond the palestinian/israel issue and goes to the very heart of the relationship between notions of liberal democracy (practiced in theory if not in fact by western countries)on one side and autocratic (and in some cases theocratic) muslim nations on the other. On the other hand, a very good friend of mine whose opinions I respect immensely served on the Syrian side of the boarder with Israel as part of the UN observer force and took away an enduring dislike for Israel and its policies. Perhaps being closer to the heart of the matter I too might have a different view.

 

Of course all this entirely off the topic but very interesting nonetheless. I’m reading Richard Dworkin’s The God Delusion right now so I’m all juiced up on anti-religious notions. IMHO the whole bikini thing is nothing short of crass sensationalism and does nothing to promote a reasonable discourse on how incompatible and potentially conflicting cultural standards can co-exist peacefully.

[Ocean11 0]

You could supplement the Dawkins with The End of Faith by Sam Harris.

 

I don't agree that he's calling for the 'destruction' of Israel, which suggests killing its inhabitants. For somebody who is discussing sensitivity to language, yours is also quite prejudicial. The solution which he proposes is not unreasonable on the face of it, and it's the one most likely to happen in the end (whenever that is). You know that people are now leaving Israel because they can't stand it any more... I'd listen to your friend if I were you.

[Mantas 3]

I watched a documentary about this a couple months ago. Iran is not alone in producing this kind of 'justice'.

This will give you a better insight to "our good Mufti "

 

Here's a few little gems.

 

Hilaly arrived in Australia on a tourist visa, but did not leave before the visa expired. Following his speech at Sydney University, then Immigration minister of Australia Chris Hurford attempted to have him deported for inciting hatred and being against "Australian values".

 

"The Jews try to control the world through sex, then sexual perversion, then the promotion of espionage, treason, and economic hoarding."

 

In 1999 Hilaly was charged and briefly jailed after being convicted of being involved in smuggling goods[

 

"September 11 is God's work against oppressors. Some of the things that happen in the world cannot be explained; a civilian airplane whose secrets cannot be explained if we ask its pilot who reached his objective without error, who led your steps? Or if we ask the giant that fell, who humiliated you? Or if we ask the President, who made you cry? God is the answer."

 

In July 2006, he was sacked from Prime Minister of Australia John Howard's Muslim Community Reference Group following comments he made in which he denied the Holocaust, calling it a "Zionist lie"

 

And the glittering jewell.......

 

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

 

My original post was wrong. I didn't include the last sentence " The uncovered meat is the problem"

 

What irks me about the prick is he has been here 24 years yet he couldn't be arsed to learn the langauge of the people where we so kindly let him reside. He obviously feel no need to communicate with the other 97% of us.

Ocean-How would be received in Japan if you lived there for 14 years yet couldn't speak Japanese?

 

P.S. I agree the bikini parade is a bit of crass sensationalism, but it does demenstrate quite well the contrasting freedom and liberty our women have compared to the one in the above story.