"durgs"

[moloneb3 0]

Opium was legal in the 19C and eventually it was banned due to the addictive nature of it. If you take the proportion of people who drink compared to the amount that are addicted, then I think you will find it is a small percentage. I think the same would not be true for opiates et al. Whether drugs like hash should be legalised or not is an interesting debate, but most important is the message it sends to young impressionable people. If people believe drugs are ok, well you could waste a generation. The drug laws, in my opinion, are there to protect the more vunerable people in society. In Dublin there are people of 13 years old who are on heroin. Terrible.

 

I am reading Howard Marks' book at the moment. He was trying to justify the importing of 'harmless hash' into different countries. The issue is that there are other people who gain capital from the sale of drugs to import other drugs. It is a terrible cycle. We have enough issues with alcohol and tobacco, so why add to them.

 

Interestingly I was having this same converstation last night.

[daver 0]

"The issue is that there are other people who gain capital from the sale of drugs to import other drugs. It is a terrible cycle."

 

would it not stand to reason that by the government taking control of this industry they would simply out muscle and out bid these "other people" out of business? thus monopolizing and regulating the sales, marketing, and manufacturing of these substances? that seems safer to me.

[Thunderpants 0]

I have yet to read one convincing argument why drugs should be illegal. Dear Ocean11 pointed out my own opinion very well in 1 line of text.

 Quote:

Well the drugs being illegal didn't help in any way now did it?

There is NO proof that legal drugs would make everyone into crack smoking rapists.

 

statistics from Netherlands suggests that weed smoking is slightly lower than in Denmark f.x.

Copenhagen police has recently removed a 30 year old well established hash/weed market , result: gangs are now at war over the leftovers. often there are shoot outs in the streets. 110% stupid move from our "Law and Order" government.

copenhagen went straight to outlaw and disorder.

 

Crime in general would drop dramatically if ALL drugs were legal, (i will scream if someone even mentions medical marijuana) Deaths due to overdose/impure drugs would drop too. Organized crime syndicates (Hells Angels, Bandidos, whatever) would be out of business soon.

 

there are approx. 23 million cocaine users in the US. The 60 billion $ a year war on drugs is not doing anything to make them change their minds. Spend 60 billion on rehab and info instead, wake up. or how about spending 30 billion on producing some clean good coke instead, Who in their right mind would snort anything like This anyway?

 

 

but sure, drugs are bad i agree.

 

a bizarre personal story: when i was arrested for 6 grams of weed. i spend 3 months in a prison cell. i got slighty mental from sitting there and had trouble sleeping at night.

The prison doctor came to check on us every 2 weeks. I told him i had trouble sleeping. Dude happily prescribed me sleeping medicine, It was strong stuff, but it was better than lying sleepless at night listening to, and smelling homeless people odor.

 

Guess what, when they finally let me out, i was VERY addicted to that sleeping medicine, and suffered whitdraw symptoms for weeks after.

 

Finally, that BS about Alcohol is a part of out culture and drugs are not. Whishfull thinking! Drugs are a part of our culture and have been so for many years. drugs are here to stay, stop criminalizing the users. even heroin users has rights to a good life, and can have so if they get good, pure stuff.

[Mantas 3]

I have a problem of POT being labeled as a ' soft drug '.Just like everyone else on here, I too have seen first hand peoples lives ruined by pot. I have also seen people smoke all their lives uneffected. It does come down the individual and their particular mental state. Still it's hardly a ringing endorsement for the use of pot. I think it's one of the most under rated ' bad ' drug out there. A little education could go a long way there.

[Ocean11 0]

I found these articles on pot and the drug business interesting;

Marijuana, the Anti-Drug

The Adverse Effects of Marijuana

 

Big Pharma and the Pill

 

There's also a fascinating chapter in The Botany of Desire by Michael Pollan about the necessarily covert efforts of pot producers to develop hybrids with reliable and desirable characteristics. If this didn't have to be covert, varieties that tend less to mess you up might become the norm.

 

Thunderpants, that's a ghastly irony about the sleeping drug. People need to think about the implications of that long and hard.

[Mantas 3]

Thunderpants- You obviously don't have children.

Bringing kids up in world where cocaine and heroin are as readily available as you suggest scares the absolute shit out of me. I don't care how pure and clean the " stuff " is. There are enough legal adictives out there already to screw young peoples lives up without adding to to the list.

 

The war on drugs could easily be won if it was fought smarter.

If the phenominal amount of money spent by the US on the war on terror and sending massive fuel spewing rocket into space was redirected. Who knows what could be achieved.

[Ocean11 0]

> Who knows what could be achieved.

 

Nothing. Because you'd be waging war on human nature.

 

I have a kid and it doesn't change my view one jot.

 

The 'adding to the list of addictives' is not a rational argument, because it assumes that the substance is at fault rather than the person. And it begs for any currently permitted addictive substance to be banned along with the others.

 

The whole mindset that says that any form of artificial stimulation is a sin is currently driving drug policy, and it's indefensible.

[NoFakie 45]

Not so long ago in India, people would die due to unscrupulous vendors diluting industrial alcohol and selling it as cheap booze. Without regulation, its back to Victorian times, when tea sold loose would contain iron fillings, mouse shit, used tea, hair, old wax, and whatever the grocer swept off his floor. You get the equivalent of that now with drugs. Whatever people can get away with.

 

The global financial system receives a lot of drug money and no doubt takes a nice cut for laundering it. I'm sure they like the system the way it is.

[Mantas 3]

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ocean11:


The 'adding to the list of addictives' is not a rational argument, because it assumes that the substance is at fault rather than the person. And it begs for any currently permitted addictive substance to be banned along with the others.

Ocean -I do believe it's a rational argument. There is a big
difference in saying to a young impessionable person.

" Hey these drugs are bad. Stay away from them"
and
" Hey these drugs are bad, but go and stand in the line and we will make sure you get the right stuff."

I don't have all the answers, but I believe the current level of illegal drug use would increase with any form of regulated supply as Thunderpants suggests.

[daver 0]

why? do you honestly believe that people choose not to do drugs simply because they are against the law? well, as ger has pointed out that seems to work here in japan, but it doesn't in most democratic countries. no, people choose not to do drugs because they have decided they don't want to engage in that type of activity. just like people choose to or not to smoke and drink.

it seems as though you are presuming if drugs were made legal, they would be available at any corner store. the idea of government regulation presumes an entire infrastructure to regulate the supply and distribution.

[Mantas 3]

No. I don't think people refrain from taking illegal drugs because it is against the law.

But societies make laws and if a society legalizes these types of drugs it assumes a dangerous ideology to young kids and teens ( this is who I'm referring to here ) that society says drugs like heroin and cocaine are OK. Some kids and teens are vulnerable.

I'm not talking about medicinal pot for a selected group of people with particular problems, I acknowledge those benefits.

 

Daver, how do you envisage a regulated heroin and cocaine supply system?

[Thunderpants 0]

Mantas, drugs are already "readily available" for our children (i don't have kids yet btw)

 

It is not a question about " adding (drugs) to to the list"

 

as long at there is a demand the market will be supplied.

 

 Quote:

I don't have all the answers, but I believe the current level of illegal drug use would increase with any form of regulated supply as Thunderpants suggests.

But Mantas, facts suggest that you are wrong.

1. longer prison sentence/stronger law enforcement does NOT reduce crime. that is proven again and again. it will raise prizes on drugs though, and thereby provoke more crimes to get money, that is also proven.

 

2. the Netherlands phenomenon. fewer youngsters between 15 and 25 are smoking weed than in f.x Denmark (Denmark and Netherlands are very similar in many ways)

 

Good education, equal opportunities and responsible parents is the best way to curb drug use.

 

although there is still a long way to go, massive information on tobacco has actually helped. people are quitting!

 

with drugs, like politics. You can either go with your ideals or you can deal with realities. i like the last one best

[Mantas 3]

Thunderpants- I don't have any facts to back up my argument. It's just my opinion. We will have to agree to disagree on that one. But the fact that anti-drug policies in Japan are working better than in western countries spells it out pretty simply.

They're doing something right- We are doing something wrong.

 

 Quote:

Good education, equal opportunities and responsible parents is the best way to curb drug use

I do agree with that though.

 

I find it interesting that all arguments for pro-legalization of drugs in this debate are based on what's wrong with the current systems in place and I'll admit it isn't working very well. Yet no-one has offered up model of how a legalized system could work.

Just who, how and where will the new form of "pure and clean" cannabis, cocaine and heroin be made available to our kids?

[daver 0]

it is not so much that in japan they are doing something right as much as the average japanese person is willing to without question obey authority.

that strategy doesn't work in my country, and i suspect it doesn't in yours either.

[gerard 6]

 Quote:

But the fact that anti-drug policies in Japan are working better than in western countries spells it out pretty simply.
They're doing something right- We are doing something wrong.

Back home certain drugs are associated with --and have had a big influence on -- art and music, literature and movies, etc. In Japan there aren't a lot of drugs because there's no demand, because there's no drug culture. It probably has a lot more to do with lack of demand and culture than it does with policy.
Thus far ignorance has served Japan well but as they continue to adopt western ideas they'll probably have to improve drug education as well as coming up with more humane and effective ways of dealing with an emerging problem.

[Mantas 3]

Guys I just re-edited my above post.

[Yuki's Passion 1]

theres def an issue with drugs and students in Japan. I know some kids smoke dope and on occasions get E/speed. Many HS kids also seem to be stuck on smokin cigs cuz its the "cool" thing to do

 

Id also say more people here use drugs than probably most people imagine.

 

You never know what pills are cut with, which is what usually leads to people dying on E, speed, and the likes. I think that things which are clinically made, synthetically made, shouldnt be taken, unless in extreme medical cases.

 

Add pills like xanex, ritalin, and especially meds like Prozac shouldnt be given out like candy either. Have you seen Medicated America? On the web PBS did a wondeful series on it.

 

One kids depressed in the 5th grade cuz he isnt the best athlete out there...well, lets give him prozac, that will cure him!

 

What durgs are we still talking about? Prescribed, illegal, legal?

 

seems this convo is focused on pot, coke, herion, but what about other durgs?

[mattlucas 0]

I wouldn't say Japan has kept itself safe by having zero tolerance for drugs

 

What is the rates of alcohol abuse over there?

Seems pretty high and common

[soubriquet 0]

You've lit my fuse CB. Ex- needs to control the behaviour of my children. She has No1 son on ritalin in order to get him to do his homework and keep up with the rich elite private school that this single mother sends him to. Performance enhancing drugs are perfectly acceptable to the establishment, and handed out freely. The school says it's a family matter. The quacks say that he meets the criteria for ADD. She says he needs drugs. Society condones drugs as long as they come from a quack.

 

They don't get or need drugs with me.

 

Female filth.

[Yuki's Passion 1]

I know you had a hard time with your Ex but female filth might be taken the wrong way. It'd be nice if there were more women on these forums. Generally women are wonderful, though a bit of an odd creature really

 

I hate how meds like that are handed out at the blink of an eye which is why I brought it up. My son cant study at night, though he had McDonalds and half a liter of coke after school (and she wonders why), please help him. Sure, here are some drugs to calm him down. Yet studies show that its often diet, poor nutrition and a lack of protein, which can be a factor in ADD/ADDHD.

 

Personally speaking, I was ADDHD, prolly still am , but my mom didnt want me taking pills (for which Im very thankful), instead she said go kick a soccerball, then come back and study. Worked pretty well for me

 

lets over-prescribing medications!

[soubriquet 0]

Female filth is important. Media portryal of fathers is of sinister, untrustworthy child molesters. She was out shagging her boss, while I was at home caring for my children. She came home from shagging her boss and complained I was not looking after my children properly. She feeds drugs to my children in order to control them.

[Ocean11 0]

Mantas, the short answer would be, leave it up to The Market, just as we do with margerine. Obviously there would be problems - margerine is not that good a product to start with, the government has to set standards which tend to be a bit scattershot, and sometimes people put too much on their bread. But what works well enough for margerine would also work for drugs. Probably.

 

There are drugs in Japan and a drug culture. Some of the reasons why drugs don't appear rife here like some other countries may include control of the trade by the yakuza, lack of entrepreneurialism from other producers/dealers, and government control and self-censorship in the media concerning the issue. But there's plenty of evidence of drugs around. Celebrities like Nagabuchi and Tashiro occasionally get busted, people on drugs occasionally freak out and kill people and get in the news, and there are head shops here and there. If you scratched the surface a bit, you'd find that the Japanese nation is quite normal in this respect.

[soubriquet 0]

Hey fossil. Speed's just fine. It mght be illegal, dangerous and addictive, but your medical establishment has no problem giving it to children. He's been on it now for 6 years. This is the message to my child.

[Ocean11 0]

Side effects of Ritalin from Wiki:

 

 Quote:

Side effects

 

Commonly reported side effects are[12][13] difficulty sleeping (which can lead in turn to other problems); loss of appetite (thus its use as an appetite suppressant); depression; irritability; nervousness; stomach aches; headaches; dry mouth; blurry vision; nausea; large pupils; dizziness; drowsiness; and motor tics or tremors. Up to 5% of children experience disturbing hallucinations often involving worms, snakes, or insects (New Scientist, 31 March 2006).

 

Less common side effects include hypersensitivity, anorexia, palpitations, blood pressure and pulse changes, cardiac arrhythmia, anemia, scalp hair loss, and toxic psychosis.[citation needed]

 

There have also been reports of abnormal liver function, cerebral arteritis, leukopenia, and death.[citation needed] There have been at least 19 cases of sudden death in children taking methylphenidate, leading to calls by the Drug Safety and Risk Management Advisory Committee to the FDA to require the most serious type of health warning on the label, but this advice was rejected (New Scientist 18 Feb. 2006).

 

Medline[14] lists a number of side-effects of unquantified frequency.

It sounds as though they need to find some drugs to cure those side effects.

[soubriquet 0]

Thanks O11

 

The self-serving, self-appointed medical and legal establishment are happy to feed poison to children, in order to control them. When they can't profit, there is always jail.