NoFakie 45 Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Things are kicking off in here I see... Well, I'm a capitalist. My job is directly linked to internationalization. I like money. I like spending it too. Sometimes on sh!t I don't need! But you know, regardless of whatever labels the press sticks on people who criticize TNCs, the World Bank, the IMF etc., I think a fair amount of what they say makes sense. Perfectly good sense, in fact. There are extremists in the protest movement, of course, but there are extremists on the other side too. In fact, suggesting that the options are warts'n'all modern capitalism or "North Korea" is a good example of such extremism. As it happens, I don't think a "buy nothing day" is a very appropriate way of expressing concern or even of raising awareness. However, I'm happy to say that I agree with at least some of the sentiment behind it. If it results in even just a tiny reduction not necessarily in consumption but in waste, that's surely a good thing. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Quote: Originally posted by Dokumanju: as for people in under developed countries CHOOSING to be exploited - that has to be one of the most heartless and intolerant things i've ever heard. yeh, as if young girls in Cambodia choose to banged by fat old white men, have their hymens sewed up again so they can get knocked up by more pedophilic sex tourists. What? they're doing it for the money so they don't starve? this has to be the most popular excuse given by sex tourists that get caught. The girls can make much more money out of me than they could doing anything else. a self denial guilt avoidance cop out if i ever saw one. listen goose brain, you are obviously quoting me. I put the capital letters on the word "CHOOSE" in my previous post. I was talking about making running shoes in developing countries. But it didn't suit you to quote me in that manner. You decided it was best to introduce something far more evil. That is all I will say on that. As for this little perl: "a self denial guilt avoidance cop out if i ever saw one". Are you saying I am a fat white man with a guilt problem and in denial? Denial of being a "pedophilic sex tourist"? Please let me know what your point was so that I may respond, because at the moment I am a tad confused. As for girls being better off getting an education rather than working in a sweat shop. I wont respond to that now. I tell you what I will do. Tonight I had the pleasure of having dinner with a senior UN employee. A muslin Somalian. You name it, she has seen it. Any and every war torn 3rd world crap hole on earth, she has lived there. She is essentially involved with managing the logistics of setting up refugee camps in the space of 6 month. Camps that are designed to house hundreds of thousands of people. We touched on this topic of sweat shops. I am going to see her again and over time get an understanding of, shock horror, the FACTS. At that stage I will let you know my thoughts. Until then I maintain that neither you or I can comment with any real understanding. Moving on, I quote you: "if the people making the items could actually afford to own the things they were making instead of having all of it sent overseas to more developed countries, i wouldn't have such a problem with it". My response is this: If these people could afford these items, then they would be consumer pigs just like you and I would they not? The next thing you will be saying is that they should be able to get a credit card... just so they can chop it up on "anti-credit card day". That argument is a little abstract, I grant you that. So I put this to you. Not being able to afford the item themselves makes f-all difference. Finally, given the low number of posts you have made I can't help but observe how many are directly relate dto BUYING THINGS. Do a search, you member number is 780. Here is a little piece I really liked from the wanna be hippie anti-globalisation anti-consumerism money is the root of all evil man himself: "sounds like everybody is knocking quicksilver, billabong etc because they're surf companies. Let's remember quick/roxy owns Mervin which makes GNU, lib tech and bent metal bindings. Plus if u're one to believe in street cred, Tara Dakides wears Billabong outerwear. check out transworld's site for the details". (by the way mate, if you knew what I did for a job I reckon you would vomit your last meal of organic farmed vegetables and lentils all over me). Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 I am having fun here... Quote: Originally posted by Dokumanju: i think the problems with the japanese economy have more to do with the an unusable banking system and a ministry of finance that defies the world of free markets. You correctly say that there is a problem with the Japanese economy. One of the reasons you state is "...a ministry of finance that defies the world of free markets". What's that tiger? free markets? would that be the same free market concept that advocates the rational, on commercial terms, allocation of resources to the most productive yet cost minimizing avenue of production (you should be thinking sweat shops right about now). I am not saying here whether or not the MoF does in fact defy the world of free markets (although I bet 100% of everything I own today and everything I will ever own that i know more about the day to day comings and goings - read transactions - of the Mof than you know right now). What I am attempting to do is point out how you have this 'ideal' that makes you feel all grouse and warm, but when it comes to actually understanding what you are talking about, let alone what others are talking about, you are all over the place like a mad woman's shiit. By the way, don't go taking all this personally. Link to post Share on other sites
enderzero 0 Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Hey Deebee, you think maybe your closeness to this issue may make you a little less objective? Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Quote: Originally posted by NoFakie: In fact, suggesting that the options are warts'n'all modern capitalism or "North Korea" is a good example of such extremism. I'd agree with that, but then that's not what I said. Our anti-consuming, anti-globablization friends (at least that's what I think they are, they're very muddled), entered the discussion with a broad condemnation of the basis of my lifestyle. I retorted that there still are places they can go where the basis is different. They can go there for longer than a day probably too. That is not, I think, an endorsement of the worst, and possibly criminal aspects, of capitablism. It is not an edorsement of the political forces that stand squarely for fewer, weaker checks and balances on that sort of thing. I'm personally stunned by the absurd greed of the people who pursue wealth so far as to screw over thousands of others. I agree with miteyak that these are legal issues, and no amount of postures adopted for a day are going to bring any improvements. In my personal experience of campaigning for environmental issues, a long, sober engagement with the relevant authorities is far more effective than getting on your high horse and spouting hog-rot. Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Quote: Originally posted by Ocean11: If you don't like capitalism, there are other countries that are making a stand for rugged individualism, self-sufficiency, and isolationism. Go to North Korea. Without wanting to argue about semantics, the above strongly "suggests" that the option for people who don't like capitalism is to go to North Korea. You can deny it if you like, but that's what it "suggests". The subsequent explanation adds a big nod to the "lots of things with unfettered capitalism are wrong"-type concerns that "anti-globalization" (THIS IS NOT MY WORD) people have, but such sentiments are absent from the above comment to which I responded. As a further point, I fail to see how anyone is condemning an international lifestyle. I have never read any arguments from people classified (usually by other people) into the "anti-globalization" camp that said you can't have foreign friends, live overseas, work for a foreign company, etc. That's not what "anti-globalization" means. This should be obvious from the way the term has been used in the past five years at least. To suggest "anti-globalization" means "against all forms of internationalization" is about as an inaccurate as to suggest "capitalist" means "in favour of any profit-generating activity, such as selling weapons to murderers and narcotics to children". The criticisms I have seen in the "anti-globalization" (again, not my word) corner are about how the Western world skews its own markets through trade barriers and massive subsidies to agriculture, nuclear power, and large businesses and then demands free access to other countries. Much criticism is aimed at such large businesses and how they register overseas and use various accounting schemes to avoid paying tax, or set up in countries with little legislation to protect the environment. They also exert a strong influence on governments, like all the inward investors in the UK who are pushing for the UK's entry into the Euro. As I have indicated, I don't agree with all "anti-globalization" arguments. Child labour, as one example, is a very complex issue and I don't think a blanket application of Western morals is particularly appropriate. I've got a business and I have to survive without subsidies or paying tax on the money I earn in Japan at Cayman Island rates. I don't see why any other business that is not bringing about some huge public good cannot do the same. As free market economics would suggest, a good number of subsidies given to businesses are "perverse" in that they only encourage wasteful use of resources and overall inefficiency. In the long run, nobody benefits and the environment suffers. Expressing opinions and spreading the message are an important part of any movement. Of course, others are free to perceive it as "getting on your high horse and spouting hog-rot" as their opinion. I disagree, and for all its faults this "buy nothing day" is actually aiming towards action. While discourse with the relative authorities is one approach, its not the only one. The choices individuals make as economic agents can be just as important. Shell didn't forego dumping that oil tanker in the North Sea because people wrote to their MP or the Department of the Environment. It was because there was a very sudden drop in sales at Shell filling stations. Link to post Share on other sites
snobee 0 Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 NoFakie - Succintly scripted. You've noted what probably many feel re. a complex issue. And although I align myself to the sentiments of the day, alas I find I have miserably failed, succumbing to temptation. My sin was a hot off the tech press, solar radar detector(my 8yr. old model is hopelessly obsolete)to keep those evil speed beams at bay as I cruise the highways in search of snow - ￥5,900 discounted from 20,000 and it was the last one of only 10 available. Oh and the wine, cheese and crackers - It's Sunday! Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 > To suggest "anti-globalization" means "against all forms of internationalization" is about as an inaccurate as to suggest "capitalist" means "in favour of any profit-generating activity, such as selling weapons to murderers and narcotics to children". I disagree. I don't care how much anybody else misuses terms (such as 'Pro-Choice' and 'Pro-Life' for example). Call me a pedant, call me a redneck, call me ignorant if you like. I'm not like Humpty Dumpty so I can't pay words a higher salary to make them work harder. It's interesting that you have to say 'this is not my word'. Why play that game at all? The term 'capitalist' is not equivalent to 'criminal', in the same way 'globalist' isn't. > The choices individuals make as economic agents can be just as important Quite right. And if that's just a one-day thing, then how very easy it must be. As it's a constant (if sometimes inconsistent thing) with me, it's a bit more difficult. Link to post Share on other sites
Higuma 0 Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 So I go downtown yesterday to have lunch with my wife in Sapporo... Get ready for this scene... Low and Behold here's some punk assed gaijin ( about 24, AET looking, semi-hippie beard and glasses - otherwise clean ) siting cross legged on the sidewalk, taking up a prescious amount of space, dressed in a SANTA CLAUS suit with brochures spread all over the sidewalk that say " Buy Nothing Today " in Eigo and Japanese... Oh yeah sitting directly outside Starbucks and across from Mitsukoshi knawwing on a Latte while he's there... I almost shatt my pants.... For the first time in a long time I was suddenly embarassed to be a foreigner... My wife, ever more aware of the signs ( rapidly pulsing vein in temple for one ) of iminent anger / danger and being very somewhat conservitive herself hustled me off as I started to say "Get a life and stop embarassing the rest of us you f'n looser"... Sidenote.. Don't embarass your J-wife in large public place being a boisterous angry Gaijin - Mortal wound and transgression of Heavenly Magnitude... Regardless, I wonder how many of these Born Again Anti-everything Dicks there where out there flying there collective " Look at me I'm a dumb ass lazy F gaijin here to either make you laugh or scare the kids who walk up expecting to talk to SANTA " I mean a SANTA suit... You hipocritic f's... Obviously your momma and papa put you through Uni to get a marketing degree... GO HOME - YOU'RE EMBARASSING US YOU LAZY GIT.... I know, too late now... Anybody else see them?... Oh and before one of you stupid shitforbrains says "Well I guess he accomplished his goal if he got your attention and made you think".. The only thing he made me think about was kick his sorry ass back to where he came from - Likely a Country Club somewhere... Link to post Share on other sites
mogski 0 Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 Morning all I am not about to step into this discussion as you have lost me on some of the points you each make. Can't pass judegement on them cause many of them I don't understand, but I do know that I am in agreement wiht them as I stand on the same side of the fence. Anyway, just wanted to say that I spent an hour at Starbucks sipping on coffe with my girlfriend, followed by a drive home using the highway followed by dinner at Friday's in Shinagawa. F the no spending day! Edit: Forgot to add in the coffee I had in the afternoon at Zanettis. Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 I bought 2 small blankets to protect my couch from my hairy dog. I also went out for dinner. I thought about buying one of those 300km/h Porsche 4WD's. Link to post Share on other sites
jared 0 Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 In the weekends, (and weekdays) I like to go skiing. Sometimes I talk to friends on the gondola about topical issues of the day. Most of the time we have a better overall day when we 1, try to understand what the other person is saying 2, politely disagree and say why. It is usually not as fun when we cut each others throats and call each other stupid names. Link to post Share on other sites
rach 1 Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 Here, here. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 jared, so maybe Boarder X isn't for you then. Link to post Share on other sites
Higuma 0 Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 They only guy making a scene on Sunday was the guy in the Santa outfit... **** As one of the oldest members of this forum I can tell you that I have many friends and aquantinces who grew up as anti-establishment, hippie types in the 1960's and 70's... It's amazing that they are now some of the movers and shakers of industry and business that are driving this "Globalization Demon" that people are so worried about... I honestly believe that this is a case of a very boisterous and often violent minority that have simply found that lastest cause to satisfy their hormonal needs... 25 years from now some of the most noisy of them will be at the Country Club smoking their Cohibas, drinking Italian Cab and talking about their impending winter vacation in Niseko.... Titanium notebook and all.... Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 well good on you jared. I try to understand what other people are saying but sometimes they make it really difficult. Then I realise that they are saying things for no other reason other than it sounds good. Link to post Share on other sites
Ocean11 0 Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 So, is the world a better place today for yesterday's 'activities' I wonder. I done thunk an awful lot yesterday, and I can't quite git my head roun' how people can make one word mean quite so many doggone bad things. Dokumanju, you can go back to your sex tourism today. That must be nice for you (I don't know much about it, not having done it). Link to post Share on other sites
cheeseman 1 Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 Snobee Wine cheese and crackers. That sounds like a treat! What kind of cheese was it? Healthy and nutritious? And of course fun as well, for all! Link to post Share on other sites
miteyak 0 Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 By a rather weird coincidence, yesterday was probably the first day ever in Japan I spent not one yen. Just happened that way. Spent the day at a friends thanksgiving. Used quite a few resources bought the day before though, so maybe it doesn't count! Link to post Share on other sites
snobee 0 Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 Higuma- don't be too embarassed by the the Santa-Gai. That's pretty mild, chuckle stuff. I was in on a conversation in mixed company the other day, with the "triumphant gorilla" boasting of how he slipped his arm around the waste of "a lil' thing" coming out of a bar and proceded to turn her upside down and check to see if she was anatomically female, "coz she looked damn like a boy to me." The ape's guffaws aside, the silence was deafening. Or yesterday, while I was celebrating no shopping day down town, the obviously visiting college basketball look alikes who, while walking 6 abreast, thought every female between 13 and 20 loved their leers and "WOWWLLZ". Poor Old Sapporo Santa at least was trying ........misguided maybe, but....??? Link to post Share on other sites
snobee 0 Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 Cheezy - And the cheese was good ol' gouda. Cheap and waxy. Link to post Share on other sites
Dokumanju 0 Posted November 26, 2002 Author Share Posted November 26, 2002 I'm suprised by the number of replies this thread gets everytime i come to this forum. passion and snowboarding must definately go together cos it seems most of us r pretty passionate about how we feel. Deebee, I think we're having friction cos u believe i represent sumthing that u don't like. Everybody's entitled to an opinion, i respect that. And i'm open to yours and anybody else who posts too. I would readily change my point of view if sumbody could supply me with a good enough reason. i don't think i can agree with globalization as long as aspects of it go hand in hand along with exploitation. i don't believe people choose to live in poverty, work in poverty and then pass their poverty on to their children beacuse they want to. it's sumthing thats been going on for thousands of years. Ancient Greece gave us democracy but they also were a society based on slavery. There was no choice for slaves then just as there is no choice for sum people today, who r just pretty well modern day slaves. If i offended u with my post, then i'm sorry. And i mean it. This whole thing's making me pretty weary. I get the idea that no matter what i say, people will still have a reactionary response to the buzzwords being thrown around without really delving into them a little deeper. Since i've posted on friday, i've been made into the ambassador for anti-globalization. that's okay but i'm not the know-all and be-all about this issue. I'm just an average slightly left of centre Joe. am i misled? maybe, am i naive? i'm not so proud to admit that i prolly am. I'm only 27 so i don't pretend to be wise for my age. maybe in 20 yrs i'll completely forget all my ideals and i will be the CEO of sum IT startup, sitting around on a beach watching my investments grow. Who knows? BND has come and past and i think a few people r a little wiser to the points of views and issues behind it, including me. is the world a better place for it? yeh, i think so. Link to post Share on other sites
Davo 1 Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 I had fugu nabe but my mother in-law paid for it. Woke up in the middle of the night soaked in sweat. Was it the fugu or did Zenta Claus get me for being a selfish consumer? I'll never know, but what I am sure about is that an awful lot of people get sucked into pseudo environmental/social issues stakeholder self righteousness. Makes them feel better but does nothing at all for the state of things in real terms. There is a valid need for people to consider how their actions as consumers impact the environment and support forms of exploitation. But dressing up like santa and telling people to not to buy anything is a lame way to go about addressing these issues. Link to post Share on other sites
Higuma 0 Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 Dokumanju, I do feel for you and I also understand your statement about this making you weary... Myself and fellow Pacific Norwesters like Enderzero, have spent a lot of time in a part of North America which is populated by a large group of profession lay-about protesters... There is literally 2 or 3 different protests a week sometimes and it's the same guys leading the AIDs actitivist protest, the Anti-fur and Anti-Free Trade protests - no lie, it's clearly documented in News films... Anyways we / I tend to get a little cynical about people blowing there Anti-anything horn... Sapporo Santa was - although quiet - a frank reminder of what used to be home for me... I have seen these same pacifists throw bottles, wreck private property and almost everything else you can imagine - including generally disrupting peoples lives... It's all a bit sad and maddening.... For example, the infamous WTO riots in Seattle where later found out to be well planned and staged by groups of professionals who flew in for just this purpose... Not by the locals or concerned citizens who got wrapped up in it... Riots are a real strange animal that sometimes take on a life of their own...... Anyways, this has been interesting... I am continually amazed at the talents that are part of this board.. I have learned things about economics, new sayings and slangs, new imaginative ways to swear, techniques, heard opinions, read rants, written rants and generally enjoyed it all... I am not being sarcastic when I say that the members of this board should be commended - we don't always agree but it is mostly enlightening and most certainly entertaining... Well done Kids.... Link to post Share on other sites
damian 0 Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 I couldn't afford the 300km/hr 4WD Porsche anyway. Which is a good thing as it would only get stolen, or I would lose it. Now, what to do about some snowboarding this weekend... Link to post Share on other sites
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