Injury/Death=Policy Change?

[samurai 0]

I remember reading the newspaper last year about a mountaineering school (I believe it was hakuba area) who had some students die in an avalanche. The cornice collapsed (I believe)(2001?)

 

The instructors of the course got sued.

The father of one of the deceased was quoated as saying something to the likes of; "If I had known it was avalanche season, I wouldn't have let my son go." If I remember correctly, the deceased was in his thirties.

 

Thoughts???

[Powderoo 0]

Its like those US women who tried to sue McDonalds because they claimed they didn't know it was going to make them fat, even though they ate it 7 times a week.

 

Where should the line be drawn between an individual's own responsibility to take care of themselves and society's responsibility to ensure others shield them.

 

Sure, these people had joined a course on mountaineering and were learning, but they should have known that mountaineering has many dangers, including avalanches. Thats why so many companies have disclaimer forms, to protect themselves from such law suits.

[gerard 6]

 Quote:

in an attempt not to stear this thread away from its proper topic, a new thread has been started regarding policy changes.

http://www.snowjapanforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/7396.html

Good idea Samurai.

We can expect to see more and more law suits in Japan. --a cultural import from the U.S. Sometimes I'm frustrated by the apparent lack of avalanche control in many places but paraphrasing the guy who wrote that book about skiing around the world... Japan's reasons for restricting BC travel (not having the know-how to control the snow) are much more reasonable than the U.S.' reasons ('someone's gonna sue us!'). I'm hoping we'll enter brief golden age where they know how to set off the cornices but there's still a shortage of lawyers.

[samurai 0]

some of the areas are management nightmares. I completely understand (as a business man) why they just rope it off. the few requesting access and the unknown amount of man-power to make it doable just doesn't break even. Lift tickets would sky rocket if some major japanese resorts decided to take avi-control into their budget.

[mattlucas 0]

Dude how on earth do you think resorts all over the world pay for it

 

Even the small resorts manage a successful program offering open bounderies and safe controlled inbounds terrain that is knarly

 

It's too bad that Japan is going the way of the litigious North America

[samurai 0]

good point. when I first skied Hakuba region, I said to myself; "can you imagine a red-bull heli event out there?" The biggest problem with big mountain events is their lack of funding. All the venues are miles away from spectators. No spectators=no sponsorship money. With the hakuba region, you could place all your spectators right at the top of the resort and get a perfect view right across the valley.

 

It's way easier said than done, of course. although, I've personally considered contacting the guys from the old World Heli Challenge out of New Zealand to help with the logistics. (that event died due to a loss of sponsorship money. Rip Curl pulled the plug and the final year was funded by the athletes themselves.)

 

I think the local japanese would be mind-boggled-blown-away if they saw an event of that caliber come to their country.

 

I know the olympics went there, but heli-accessed free ride events are waaaay more fun to watch.

 

abunai, abunai, abunai, abunai... they would need medics at the resort just to handle the girls passing out on the sun deck from too much exposure to sickness.... NHK ratings would go through the roof just due to the news.

 

and then it would fade away... but hopefully the helis would still exist. That place needs heli skiing to fully bring it up to par. It definetely has the terrain. And demand will not stop pushing it.

[mattlucas 0]

I have read a few snips here and there of a big mountain competition held in Japan in the mid 90s but never found out where it was

 

I think a Japanese event would go over well. There is after all a local hero on the freeskiing tour and he does pretty good

[white-void 0]

"It's too bad that Japan is going the way of the litigious North America"

 

Question - is it actually?

[mattlucas 0]

 Quote:

Originally posted by samurai:
The father of one of the deceased was quoated as saying something to the likes of; "If I had known it was avalanche season, I wouldn't have let my son go." If I remember correctly, the deceased was in his thirties.

I'd say so

[gerard 6]

Basically up until now, nobody really sued for anything. If you fell down into an open manhole that the construction crew had neglected to mark, or the bungy jump attendant failed to strap you in properly, or the doctor misdaignosed your melanoma, it was like -- "Shoganai -- Nothing you can do about that. Must be an act of god!" The public and the courts have realized that sometimes you SHOULD lay blame and that people or organizations must be made to take responsibility. It's acknowledged that there is an enormous shortage of lawyers, and to correct this, Universities have created law departments, with the first wave of graduates this coming March. (How they perform on the bar exam remains to be seen.) On the other side, apparently there is an emerging shortage of maternity doctors and gynocologists, because they are more likely to get seriously sued. Sexual and other harassment suits are also increasing as people become more aware of their rights. (You'd almost think Japan was a democratic country!) The country is changing, following the western/American model, which is a good thing, up to a point. It still lags behind in some areas though. 'Lifeguards' at both public pools and private waterparks for example, are often just college kids who study P.E. or are on the swim team, with no qualifications beyond that... --or daft old men with probably even fewer qualifications.

 

Anyway, that's the general picture but I don't know much about the inner workings of the ski industry. I imagine things will probably get sorted out one way or another after a court case or two in the near future. Niseko's one of the ski areas that I'm most familiar with, and they seem to have a really fair and progressive policy. There are expansive in-bound treed areas which people are welcome to ski at their own risk. More common areas like strawberries have warnings that the area is unpatrolled. Some treed areas, like the peak or the trees on the skier's left of the top Hanazono lift may be open or closed depending on avalanche risk. Signs are bilingual and when areas are off-limits, they tend to explain WHY they're closed as well. They state that they will clip your ticket and they often say something like... "We know you want to ski powder and we'll open this area when conditions permit". Generally, everything is very explicit, which I really like. The only grey areas that I've experienced are liftlines (under the lift), or when you cross a liftline into a 'closed' area without actually crossing any line. The ski patrol don't like that. I respect the patrol and the general 'culture' at Niseko. They know that powder is really fun and that people go there to ski it, and they allow people to do so. Sure, Niseko could be a little steeper, but generally that's the kind of place where I want to ski. I'd like to see other resorts move in that direction too.

[sock_monkey 0]

the first wave already graduated. only 48% of those new grads passed the bar exams, prompting an inquiry and reevaluation of all those new depts. one smaller dept. did not even have a single candidate pass.

 

http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/384957

 

article's gone... shoganai

[samurai 0]

oh crap, here we go...

 

in an attempt to bipass the blah-blah beauracracy bottle-necks that we all find ourselves in in this country, let's buy a mountain and go heli-skiing!

 

you provide the ownership with the waivers that actually stand in court and I'll provide the pilots and the ships. A-stars and Squirrels; You'll be flying upside-down! (Sorry, pilots only come with ships and ships only come with pilots. those are the rules.)

 

Helicopters (and then 100's of 1000's of ridiers) are literally a phone call away, if we can figure out how to deal with the "Sumimasen... Chotto..."

 

"Chotto ***ng what?"

 

what comes next?

 

Dear business-owner;

I want to give you money, please take it...

Can I please help this stagnant economy grow? Can I please fill those empty Nagano Olympic hotels that have paint peeling off the walls and rusty everything.

 

Sorry... my daily frustration accidently flowed onto the SJ site.

 

Some day I WILL draw up a business plan to take over a ski village in this country. And the world will come. and japan will be considered what it is, world-class alps.

 

oh, and the food rocks and the onsens and the transportation system and EVERYTHING we need.

 

I honestly can't believe how much Nagano failed to make an impression on the world during their olympic debut.

 

How do you say; "Dropped the ball." in Japanese?

How do you say; "Pass it to me."

[soubriquet 0]

This is a Squirrel. There are two Bell JetRangers behind.

 

 

I ran that field trip. It was fun.

[samurai 0]

how is the bell ride compared to one in a squirrel or an A-star?

The squirrel and A-star are very different themselves, and the bell? does it dive up-side down? Will I see the ground above me?

 

btw--- where is that shot? And can you use another verb in your 'field trip' sentence? wakanai.

[soubriquet 0]

The photo was taken in the Pilbara, NW Western Australia. The landscape is one where plateaux meet plains, connected by cliffs and canyons. There is also a lot of iron ore, which is where my research money came from. If I wanted a helicopter, I picked up the phone and ordered one.

 

I only ever travelled in a Jet Ranger, so have no comparison with the Squirrel. One pilot took us up a canyon with an island of rock at its head, threw it on its side and pulled up hard to make the turn. I was in the front looking up at solid rock and going Yee Ha, while my acrophobic colleague was cringing in the back with his hat pulled over his face. Poor Max didn't enjoy that trip.

 

I did the research, wrote the report, set the itinerary, wrote the field guide, gave the presentation and walked the company's exploration brass through the field area. I think "ran" is the appropriate verb.

[Fattwins 0]

I dont think that Japan is going sue crazy too be honest. The laws restrict pay outs so much and the process is too long. When someone gets injuryed ie falls into a manhole its not shoganai that company pays the whole bill thats the law.

 

Heli in Hakuba where? where are you going to safely do it seriously it isnt going to hapen in hakuba unless maybe on the backside. The only really safe area is in a protected park above tsugaike.

 

Same with a big mountain comp where are you going to safely hold it. I love hakuba but there arent many faces to hold the comp safely and have people watch it.

[samurai 0]

well, I'm not planning on holding a comp, just saw the terrain and the word comp screamed at me. I don't know the area all that well, just one week-long trip. The comps that occur in the world are not really considered safe by most people's definition of the word. The skiers on the other hand, take their safety into their own hands.

 

The guys who pioneered AK never stopped at the word safe. Yes, they keep it as safe as they can and AK can be argued as safer than hakuba, nonetheless... I wouldn't let it detur those willing to invest. I know there is alot I don't know about hakuba, but as of now, I don't see why heli skiing will never happen in japan or hakuba for that matter. I honestly just consider it a matter of time. You know much more than I about hakuba and that's why I through it on this forum. I know you, as well as others, have decades more experience than I. But, I'm not just a cowboy either, I do recognize dangers more than my ignorant post implied.

 

And soub, thanks for clearing that up, I assumed that's what you meant by RAN, but still didn't know what type of field-trip it was. Sounds like fun and interesting work. Did instinct pick your feet up off the heli floor when you got close to the rock? I've always considered that knee-jerk reaction mildly entertaining.

[Fattwins 0]

Hakuba's main problem is that every line gullies at or near the bottom. There are only a few lines that runout safely into flats. That means when we have problems they are usally big.

 

Heli sking is already happening in japan and in hakuba but not on the scale of North america. The front side of hakuba is just not the ideal place or heli sking.

 

The only place worth doing heli sking is near tsugaike and that is a protected wildlife area.

[samurai 0]

yeah, I remember every line funneling and closing out. I remember my problem-solving dilemmas were not about getting to, but out of those lines.

[Fattwins 0]

The terrain is mind boggling when its safe like it was yesterday. You have access to spines, chutes bowls and the hairy scary stuff as well. I believe a flim crew would go nuts here if they ever did come here.

[samurai 0]

MSP came in PUSH. They did a HORRIBLE job though. Perhaps the weather didn't cooperate. It's sad (or good for the time being) that the world isn't getting more exposure. More people pushing the boundaries would only help our sport here before the masses actually became a problem and lines became scarce.

 

How about sno-mos? Are they legal in the valleys I see around the resorts? That would make getting out of some of the bigger lines much easier. If I remember correctly, it seemed that most of those God lines not only funneled out, but ended a few km's from the road.

 

(I know you don't have to go that far, but...)

[gerard 6]

WARNING. THIS IS A LONG VERBOSE POST WHICH MIGHT BE VERY BORING TO SOME READERS. READ IT AT YOUR OWN RISK. I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DAMAGES.

 

 Quote:

When someone gets injuryed ie falls into a manhole its not shoganai that company pays the whole bill thats the law.

Yeah, I was writing for effect. Basically, the pattern that I've seen in Japan is that there's little course of redress if you feel you've been wronged or hurt because of neglegence. This is changing quickly however. I can't think of any area where the change is more visible than in the medical industry. No dought, doctors were almost never questioned and second opinions were rarely sought. When doctors screwed up, patients were less likely to attribute fault and take appropriate action. Cover-ups were also more common. Now things are changing however. I can think of a couple of concrete examples off hand but I haven't actually studied the industry in detail. It's also part of a more general pattern however. There's little you can do if you feel you've been wronged by the police... People are less likely to sue industries for things like damages caused by neglegent waste disposal and pollution... Relatively speaking (ie-relative to most of our own countries) --this is an authoritarian country and people accept what they're given and what is done to them. The government is a in effect, a neo-conservative one party coalition. Even if people disagree with policy, eveuntually they settle down and think "Shoganai", as is the case with the Government's support for the war in Iraq, which Abe recently reaffirmed. I'm going off on a tangent here, and my frustrations with Japan are pretty obvious. The positive side is that it's all relative, and my impression is that Japan is way ahead of most of Asia. The other positive side is that things ARE changing. Individuals are learning that they have rights and they are asserting them. It's no coincidence that this coicides with an increasing demand and supply of lawyers. Still it really does seem like, 'Shoganai' is like a national anthem sometimes. I might eggagerate or inflate things sometimes, (partly to make up for the recent absence of a couple of key SJ members like spud ('cheers, spud')) ...but surely you can see what I mean.

 

So how does this effect the ski industry? Obviously many of you know a lot more about the ski industry in Japan than I do... but let's say someone seriously hurts themselves by skiing into a snowcat, while in operation. I'm sure this event is much more likely to end up in court NOW, than in the 1980's (and rightfully so). It seems to me that everyone is recongnizing that resorts and businesses have responsibility, and that indivuduals have resposibility, and the line between them is currently being drawn. I can't imagine Japan going 'sue crazy' but there is a fairly undeniable general trend (which is positive for the most part).

 

PS... Actually, going back to the manhole example, I do remember about 10 years ago, a student of mine severely breaking his arm by riding into a construction site. I can't remember the details exactly but I remember thinking (and saying) "AREN'T YOU GONNA SUE!?" and the student was like--"No No... We Japanese don't do that"... So my example might not be all that far off. Don't quote me on that though.