Big Al 16 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Check your history books pie eater and see how various other independence movements treated those from within who collaborated with or supported the occupying forces; Algeria, Ireland, Israel etc. Realpolitik doesn't play out by the cricket rule book. A few genuine, heartfelt words from me are of negligible overall effect but certainly make me feel good !!! If they make any "no" voters feel bad then that's a bonus !!! Link to post Share on other sites
pie-eater 207 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 You see, pretty much every time you post in here you illustrate my point. But I'm in with Bag on this subject, I'm very detached from it all and don't really care about it any more than very slightly. I need to get on with the projects I'm really interested in, like domes. Link to post Share on other sites
Big Al 16 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Off you pop then...toodle pip what? Link to post Share on other sites
pie-eater 207 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Very sorry indeed, thought they were all just words. Naruhodo. Link to post Share on other sites
ippy 66 Posted September 20, 2014 Author Share Posted September 20, 2014 A a good Foucauldian (look it up nerds), i believe that power exists in discourse. That means when no ones talking about something, it might as well not exist, (well, actually as a good Foucauldian, it means that when someones not talking about something it means that power is overwhelmingly being exerted, but thats for another lecture). Anyways, heres my assessment on Devo max: England is losing their shit (expected). England is now arguing about the West Lothian Question (expected) and the unfair distribution of wealth to Scotland through the Barnett formula (expected). They realise a promise was made though, but they want their own concessions (entirely expected) to protect the English people from getting a crap deal. Scotland will concede the west lothian question in due time. Well, labour will, (nothing to concede from the other parties) Because it will give rise to the discussion on an English parliament for English decision making (unexpected) The Barnett formula immediately opens up the question of WHY the Northern regions of england are so underfunded compared to the south east DESPITE the Barnett formula (and that London gets plenty from it), and this will open up regional questions (unexpected). This will open up the discussion on regional funding and the strangelhold of power at westminster that concentrates solely on the South East (unexpected). Well actually, theyre all expected. Its hilarious watching the threat of UKIP foisting on the South East (the UKIP and Westminster homeland) the discussion on power diffusion from the south east to the regions using the language of nationalism to try and foster some kind of unified English vision (whist creating the very conditions of regionalism theyre trying to undermine). As i say, the death knell was signed on the UK when the three main parties ran to scotland and decided to talk about handing more powers to scotland. The irony that they failed to gather is that scotland IS powerless against England. Its not Scottish moaning and complaining that will break up the UK, its because ENGLAND is talking about it now and taking it seriously. Scotland has no power to foist on England anything at all. Only England can change the course of the UK. Twas ever thus! And England is buying hook line and sinker into the rhetoric of rampant scottish nationalism forcing a poor deal for england. So now england wants to stop being oppressed by those evil scots and will have its own parliament and regional assemblies to counter them! England is actually agreeing to the dispersal of the power of westminster because of the heating conversation in ENGLAND, not because of scotland. It doesnt matter that they offered scotland empty promises, Its the threat thats opened the conversation and turned up the heat on centralised power in the south east. If you were an evil super villain, the plan couldnt have gone smoother. Theyre talking themselves into corners and bringing the diffusion of power from westminster right into the rhetoric of English nationalism, when its only in the interests of the powerless regions of england, wales, scotland and northern ireland for such a diffusion to take place. Its genius. And the architect? None other than Gordon Brown, the saviour of the UK. Okay, maybe its more comic book than reality. But i love this.Its what i was waiting for and its all playing out exactly as youd expect thus far. The tories and labour have backtracked. The tories are now banging the English powers drum, and labour are trying to find a way to wriggle out of west lothian question. But the conversation is under way, and England is now the new battleground for constitutional reform. If for some reason the UK actually agrees on extra funding for scotland, itll blow the doors wide open. Hello not just diffuse power, it'll be federalism. Link to post Share on other sites
pie-eater 207 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 You sure write a lot ippy. But i love this.Its what i was waiting for I thought you were waiting for Yes to win the vote and Scotland to be independent? Is all this the next best thing or something? I'm not trying to be naughty, honest. It's great that you find this so exciting though! I never could with politics. Apart from the fabulous Abenomics, of course. Link to post Share on other sites
ippy 66 Posted September 20, 2014 Author Share Posted September 20, 2014 Independence was always my second wish (eyes passim). My first wish was constitutional federalism Im an old school labour lefty. I dont blame the PLP for being a useless bunch of wankers. I blame the makeup of British demographics that concentrates wealth and power in the south east because thats where most of the people in the UK end up living (because wealth and power are concentrated in the south east - forcing the labour party to devise policy for those people at the expense of their heartlands). For me, if the conditions change, then the PLP will change with them and reflect something closer to the vision their core supporters want. Not radical left, but just a re-balancing of UK policy to the old center left values of redistribution, social welfare and opportunism. The old classic "freedom to..." over the Thatcherite "freedom from..." This was always bigger than Scotland. Even the promise or vow was irrelevant. All that was required was England to buy into the idea that we were getting something they werent to start the ball rolling. Dont get me wrong, Wales and the regions of England have just as much right to complain, but Wales (and the regions), like Scotland, wont change shit without an English (South East English) desire for change. England holds the cards, and always has done. That theyve decided to tell themselves that Scotland is at their border stealing their sheep for the sake of the prejudices of the little Englander in the south east, means more to the cause of devolved power than any empty vow to the scottish people. Scotland will get shafted as ever, but this time it seems the threat of UKIP, the threat of 'the scottish rebellion', the threat of more money going north, and the spite of the English media reflecting the echo chamber of their south east voting public that theyre somehow the massive victims in all this, will create the conditions that genuinely threaten the UK and the conservative right wing hold of the UK. It makes me terribly excited for the future. Link to post Share on other sites
Go Native 70 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Link to post Share on other sites
pie-eater 207 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Apparently, it was actually 'constitutional federalism' that they wanted. Not exactly sure what that actually is, but surely means it was a good result. Link to post Share on other sites
ippy 66 Posted September 20, 2014 Author Share Posted September 20, 2014 Hey you! dont be sarcastic, If you want proof ill more than happy direct you to all my posts on pages 5, 6, and 7 on the matter! . Link to post Share on other sites
pie-eater 207 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I don't actually know what it means, ippy... I'll have to look it up! Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 There was no English-hating types......it wasn't about England. There was anti-Westminster types for sure Link to post Share on other sites
Big Al 16 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Very well researched and very informative - thanks Ippy. Like everywhere else in the real world, short term "rental" comments and viewpoints will always prove superfluous to strategies formulated in the heart and executed with the head !! Link to post Share on other sites
kokodoko 67 Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 sorry scotland. Link to post Share on other sites
gerard 6 Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Would it be too much to ask for someone to sum the preceding 9 pages up for me in one or two sentences to save me the trouble of scrolling through? Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 We didn't vote for independence Link to post Share on other sites
gerard 6 Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 I didn't miss anything, then. Link to post Share on other sites
gerard 6 Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Oh, does that mean you're going to change your nationality to "U.K." or something something of the like? Link to post Share on other sites
NoFakie 45 Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 There was no English-hating types......it wasn't about England. There was anti-Westminster types for sure My brother voted Yes and he's a Geordie! With the last-ditch promises made, the issue isn't going to go away. Link to post Share on other sites
Tubby Beaver 209 Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Oh, does that mean you're going to change your nationality to "U.K." or something something of the like? No....we were UK before the vote and my nationality was still Scottish Link to post Share on other sites
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